Nationals Video

[ColdDuck 0]

Is there a nationals freefly video this year?

"Insurance should called In case shit happens, if shit don't happen shouldn't I get my money back?"

[OzoneJunkie 0]

You know, it's always bothered me how a Nationals video gets made and sold from the videos that should rightfully belong to the teams. Then, they don't so much as even give a free copy to the teams themselves. f*ck that.

[MissMissy 0]

The lovely gals from FL that are from Air Blades covered the whole event... doing interviews, capturing landings and getting the rounds of comp. collected and they just called me yesterday to say that the video is coming along nicely.

Because they have soo much footage to go through and to work with, I don't expect them to be done before spring.

---
Missy Nelson
**Learning Never Stops**

[totalbodypilot 0]

Maybe YOU should buy the video and "get in the ring of fire" and show your stuff. Then you would understand the video is more than a cash thing! It's about trying to help others & be part of history. NO ONE will stay on top forever! History has proven that, again, and again. The only "riches" is seeing someone take a medal for something you taught them! Thats what the hard work these women are trying to do, will provide. They worked harder than most competitors at Nat's! If you ever think someone will get rich or ever break even with a video to training ratio maybe you should ask Olav....
Get a clue and ad that to your "Thought for the day"
Colon Berry

seek and destroy, clear and sweep, what ever you want to call it, its all fun in games in the game of war.

[OzoneJunkie 0]

I have competed at the Nationals. Ozone Junkies (the team) competed in the Nats for the first freefly year. My point is, someone else is profitting off of it, and the least they could do is provide all competitors with a copy of the video that they sell.

Mind you, I was in a bad mood the day I posted - but my feelings haven't changed about that - just the intensity. They should mail a copy of the video to each competitor, at no cost to the competitor.

And, just for clarity's sake, I don't think this is a matter of offsetting the cost it takes to run the competition. I (we) paid for our jumps, plus an entrance fee, plus airfare, transportation, and hotel, plus thousands of dollars in training jumps, so there's no way that I can be convinced that that money is rightfully owed to the video makers, in the name of paying for the competition costs.

Don't get me wrong, I love skydiving, and do it for the enjoyment, not the recognition, or any type of remittance. But, honestly, can you say that teams shouldn't at least get a copy of the video? I mean, they are profitting from MY video.

Perhaps you should get a clue, Colon.

[MissMissy 0]

may i.... spread the love... unfortunatlely skydiving is a sport where we don't make much money, in any aspect; we all have to eat and sometimes little stings like having our own footage sold, happens. this should be a sport of giving and taking, and maybe the taking this time around isn't a free video. but sharing what we do and having other people see it is worth forfeiting getting a free video, even after all the expenses, time and energy we put in to be a nationals. but that's just what happens.

i'm sure if we introduce a better way, National hosts will be more than willing to listen.

~spread the love my friends... remember why we skydive ~

missy

---
Missy Nelson
**Learning Never Stops**

[OzoneJunkie 0]

Believe me, I understand. I think that the minimum concession, here, however, would be to offer competitors the video at a discount. I see many others profit from certain things in skydiving, be it videos, coaching, etc. I doubt very much that Colon or yourself would do coaching for free on a regular basis, especially if you're paying for your own jumps. Imagine if someone took video of you, without your consent, and sold a freefly instructional video. Perhaps this is a bit of an extreme analogy, but it gets my point across...

As I said, I was in a bad mood the day I originally replied. I do try to give back to the community in many ways. My freefly tips thread, I'm told, has been extremely useful to many people. That's some useful (and expensive, when you think about it) information. I don't see a lot of coaches offering up free advice - doesn't mean it doesn't happen - I just don't tend to see it.

To be honest, I don't have any hard feelings towards anyone - it's more about the idea of doing right by each other in the community, more than anything.

[OzoneJunkie 0]

I'd like to clarify a few things:

I hear (not just here, in this thread, but in general) a lot about this "give and take" within the community. The definition of either of the terms is relative, and means something different to everyone.

One may look at coaching as "giving" - offering a service to the community. Or one may look at coaching as "taking" - profitting within the skydiving economy. (just to clarify - I've heard others define coaching both ways - I'm not making this up for my example).

One may look at offering a nationals video as giving to the community. Or, it could be considered taking - profitting, using other people's videoes, etc. You may not see a nationals video as taking, but some may. Perhaps the way to make it "right" is to give back - offer the competitors the discount.

And so you know, I'm not saying this for my benefit at all. I didn't compete in this years nationals - so I don't expect anything. And even if I had competed, I wouldn't expect anything. It's not about expectations. It's about a balance of the giving/taking within our community.

[IMGR2 0]

How about just a copy to the team cameraman?

My .02

[motherhucker 0]

Was there any kind of exclusivity or video rights waiver signed by the teams (specifically the camerapersons)? If not, then at the very LEAST they need to be paid for their footage if it's being used commercially at all. In my experience in the industry, it seems to be common courtesy to provide camera persons a complimentary copy of the finished product for their own records.
If there WAS a waiver signed, then quit whining about it and pay the $20 for a video.
$0.02
mh

[WrongWay 0]

Yeah, you go Jesus!!

He's right ya know. If it's used commercially, the camera people need some kind of monetary compensation, like the video. That is unless they signed a waiver like he stated. If that's the case, then the waiver should have been read before it was signed, and it would be the signers fault he/she had to pay for it.

My $.99 super value meal....

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[OzoneJunkie 0]

I'll be perfectly honest - I have no idea if I signed anything that said that I was giving away the rights to my video. In general, one would expect that the videos would be used for judging, and judging alone. In 2000, I don't think the producers were even directly affiliated with the competition itself. I really don't know. But again, my point is not even to seek out anything for myself - it's more a matter of suggesting that in the future, this may be "the right thing to do" - a single video to the team - sent to the cameraman, is perfectly acceptable in my eyes.

Btw, Missy sent me a very nice, sincere private message. I don't have any negative feeling towards anyone here, nor do I even feel bad anymore about my experience with the Nationals video (venting was enough). But, wow, if only everyone could be as cool and nice as Missy - this community needs more peeps like her.

[Vertifly 0]

No, I don't believe that we did sign any release forms. In fact, our team was told that we could have the tape of our jumps when the judging was finished.

But, than again, I wasn't concerned about "rights" to my footage at the time.

In truth, I wouldn't ask for compensation but it is kinda rude to just use people like that.

[ccowden 0]

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But, wow, if only everyone could be as cool and nice as Missy - this community needs more peeps like her.

I agree totally. We all mess up once in awhile, myself included. But I have learned that there is much more to this sport than just the jumps. The people in the sport are what matters and how we care for each other. Missy has been a true inspiration to me!

The Nationals are a way for skydivers of all levels and disciplines to showcase their stuff. I don't think that profitting is the main goal of the video. I think it is a great way to let people see what other teams are doing and see what the best of the best are doing as well. The Nationals are more about comraderie and showcasing, not money.

[OzoneJunkie 0]

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The Nationals are a way for skydivers of all levels and disciplines to showcase their stuff. I don't think that profitting is the main goal of the video. I think it is a great way to let people see what other teams are doing and see what the best of the best are doing as well. The Nationals are more about comraderie and showcasing, not money.

I really do agree with this. Even if offered money, I'd refuse it (unless the producers were getting rich off of the videos - then I'd think about it ).

[koz2000 1]

Yes there was a release and complete rights were "supposedly" given to the production company. One of the 8-way team's cameraman was removed from the competetion when he refused to sign the waiver. (he refused b/c his team could not use their own video) This practice is actually illegal. I'll use my own video for my own uses.


I have no problem paying $20 for the work that was put into the editing of the video.

______________________________________________
- Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes -

[AirZoneXtreme 0]

Hello Skydivers USA!

We’d like to say that we believe you can all relax, because you are protected by the USPA, who owns all rights to the competition footage that was collected and now being edited by AirZoneXtreme, to be sold by the Florida Skydiving Center in Lake Wales, Fl. The waiver concerning the footage/talent release came strictly from AirZoneXtreme, derived from our past television production work and 25 years of active skydiving experience since 1977. We believe that the USPA has every right to have an event video of the US Nationals, just as much as any other organization or event. In the waiver, we gave the USPA the leverage to utilize this competition footage down the road if they choose, without having to ask each talent - which is a word to describe all of us athletes. It’s an incredible event, and worth the world seeing if the USPA should come upon such an outlet this year, next year, or in the next century. We’re glad to be instrumental in that regard. Of course, each team has a right to use their own footage as they so desire…that’s a given.

There was mention made about a cameraman who left. That person had already completed the 4-way division and had signed the waiver okay, but left before the 8-way competition started, and for the sake of privacy a matter that should probably be left alone, which is why you probably haven’t heard many details about it.

Sorry that we didn’t respond to these issues sooner, but we were just trying to stay out of it and focus. No worries, Ozone Junkie. We understand your concerns. AirZoneXtreme will not misuse the competition footage. We will do our best to create a production that exemplifies the competitor’s skills and hard work and helps further the sport of skydiving.

We’re going to get back to work now. We’ll be making an official announcement about product details and availability, as soon as we can. The day after our return from the nationals, we received word that Annie’s sister was dying, so we drove to Pennsylvania to be with her. We were the last ones to speak to her before she passed away. Also, Rosalyn was terribly ill and in bed for 15 days!, but she’s fine once again and working on graphics for the production. It’s a lot of work, but the more the better. We hope this production will encourage all of you to put a team together or compete individually at next year’s US Nationals.

Love you all.

Annie, Olivia, & Rosalyn
www.airzonextreme.com

[url]

[OzoneJunkie 0]

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We’d like to say that we believe you can all relax, because you are protected by the USPA, who owns all rights to the competition footage that was collected and now being edited by AirZoneXtreme, to be sold by the Florida Skydiving Center in Lake Wales, Fl. The waiver concerning the footage/talent release came strictly from AirZoneXtreme, derived from our past television production work and 25 years of active skydiving experience since 1977. We believe that the USPA has every right to have an event video of the US Nationals, just as much as any other organization or event. In the waiver, we gave the USPA the leverage to utilize this competition footage down the road if they choose, without having to ask each talent - which is a word to describe all of us athletes. It’s an incredible event, and worth the world seeing if the USPA should come upon such an outlet this year, next year, or in the next century. We’re glad to be instrumental in that regard. Of course, each team has a right to use their own footage as they so desire…that’s a given.

Actually, your statement makes me relax less. The idea that the rights of the video are owed to the USPA bothers me. As does the idea that the competitors have no way to "opt out" of inclusion of their video in said production - that their only "choice" is to not compete if they do not wish inclusion of their footage. The waiver should include a yes/no option for the competitors - without that option, teams aren't left with a choice, now are they?

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AirZoneXtreme will not misuse the competition footage.

This was never the issue (at least, not in my eyes). The issue was that I, as well as others, felt that at the minimum the video should be offered at a discount rate to the competitors. Not that it's owed to the competitors, but it would be "the right thing to do".

In regards to the waiver, which essentially grants the USPA and affiliated production groups the right to the competition footage, I feel, is an injustice to the nature of the competition, that essentially teams that do not wish to grant those rights to USPA are only left with one choice, to not compete.

I can imagine a situation where a team such as Airspeed is contracted by say, the Discovery Channel, to film video for a televised documentary, tracking the team from training to competition. Suppose that it's Discovery channel's wish to purchase the footage exclusively from Airspeed. The day of sign-in at the Nationals, Airspeed learns of the waiver, which leaves no choice of non-inclusion of their footage in the USPA/AirZoneXtreme's production. I think publicized conflict with such a recognized team would not bode well for the USPA/AirZoneXtreme's "protective" waiver. Protecting who?

[skymama 37]

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The issue was that I, as well as others, felt that at the minimum the video should be offered at a discount rate to the competitors. Not that it's owed to the competitors, but it would be "the right thing to do".

Not that my opinion matters, but I agree with you. If any company or organization is going to make a profit off of a team's jumps, it seems to me that it would be the right thing to do to offer at least 1 video to each team at cost.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[Vertifly 0]

... or, for free. For compensation.


By the way, if anyone is listening, my address is... sike

[jdfreefly 1]

You people miss the point. The majority of people buying this video will be competitors.

If you force the production company that makes it to give it away, or make little or no money on the sale to the majority of people that will buy it, you remove the financial incentive for the people producing it. Remove the financial incentive for creating something and the quality of that thing suffers.

If you want a copy of the judges tape(unpollished stock footage) given to each team, fine(which would of course cause registration fees to go up). But that, to the best of my knowledge, is not what this will be. Those ladies were working hard at nationals from first load to sunset, and I am sure they are working hard to create a highly pollished product for sale.

I competed this year, and I have every intention of buying a copy of this video, three copies infact, one for me and one for each of my teammates.

Too many people in this sport are all about, "What's in it for me?" Suck it up, stop your crying and be happy with what the sport gives you already.

I will give to this sport until I have nothing left to give. Even to those who only want to know what the sport is going to give them.

Sorry if this tone is harsh, but this attitude really pisses me off.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[skymama 37]

I assumed that the market would be fun jumpers such as myself who would use the video as a learning tool. After seeing just Trent's video here on dz.com, I think the National's video that showcases all the talent would be a great way for jumpers to pick up new ideas and techniques.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[OzoneJunkie 0]

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You people miss the point. The majority of people buying this video will be competitors.

You make "a" (probably not "the") good point. I don't know if it's factual, but I'll concede that it probably is. But what if it's not? Or it is, but not next year? Or, what if (a stretch, I know) it sells 1 millions copies? Ok for someone to ask for a discounted copy then?

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If you force the production company that makes it to give it away, or make little or no money on the sale to the majority of people that will buy it, you remove the financial incentive for the people producing it. Remove the financial incentive for creating something and the quality of that thing suffers.

Suddenly it's ok for the production company to have financial incentive, but not the competitors?

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If you want a copy of the judges tape(unpollished stock footage) given to each team, fine(which would of course cause registration fees to go up). But that, to the best of my knowledge, is not what this will be. Those ladies were working hard at nationals from first load to sunset, and I am sure they are working hard to create a highly pollished product for sale.

I never said they shouldn't be compensated. If I wanted even just a raw footage copy, I'd expect to pay for someone's efforts to put that together. Certainly a nicely produced video is worth compensating. I'm merely suggesting that others may feel that the competitors "donating" their footage to such an effort might be considered a compensation-worthy thing as well.

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I competed this year, and I have every intention of buying a copy of this video, three copies infact, one for me and one for each of my teammates.

How about one for me too, then?

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Too many people in this sport are all about, "What's in it for me?" Suck it up, stop your crying and be happy with what the sport gives you already.

I must have said 1/2 dozen times that I'm not looking for something directly for me, that I was merely trying to suggest that there may be a way to make things "fair". And the other people's posts, who sided with my opinions, were doing the same.

It's the hostile attitudes such as the one that you're taking ("Suck it up, stop your crying") that's prohibitive to the nature of discussion. Understand that someone else could just as easily view the video producers attitude as being "What's in it for me?" by assuming that it's their right to the footage, and to profit off of it, without regard to the competitors rights and efforts.

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Sorry if this tone is harsh, but this attitude really pisses me off.

No need to be sorry. Be pissed off if you want. You're merely stating your opinions and feelings, as am I.

The bigger picture, I would think, beyond seeking a balance in compensation (if there's even one to be had), is the idea of the "choiceless" waiver. I don't like the idea that teams don't have a choice about their inclusion of their footage into a video. It goes against the nature of competition. Imagine a team chooses not to compete, for their own reasons, due to the "must concede video" waiver. Supposing that this team is one of the best, or the best, in their discipline. It hurts the competition not to have this team (or a team of any skill level) compete.

But seriously, all of this stuff aside - I appologize for my "f*ck that" attitude in my original post - that doesn't get us anywhere. But after that, I merely wanted to open the stuff up for friendly discussion. Most of my replies here are merely attempting to show that there's 2 sides to the coin here. I don't want to come off as unfriendly - those who know me know that's not the way I am. I would like to say "I'm sorry" if I've offended. Missy's got the right attitude = let's keep the love.

[jmfreefly 0]

Just my .02 on this whole debate. I wasn't at nats, and never read the releases, but if they are as people said, then:
1) I agree that the inability to 'opt-out' of inclusion in the Nationals production is wrong. Unfortunately, I don't think that will ever change. "Sign it or don't compete". Who knows.. maybe it will change.

2) I disagree with an attempt to limit the use of footage by the 'author' of the video, unless they are under contract (e.g. National Geographic,etc.). I can understand signing a release for use, but not a release of 'ownership'.

3) I -do- agree with the idea of charging money for a production-quality copy of the footage (within reason). I have done our DZ's year-end video the last 3 years (with various co-producers), and the amount of hours to put quality footage together is a lot. Heck, just making DVD Menus look good can take a while. ( I am sure some idiot from my DZ will pipe up with some silly insult here..
But, it all relates to quality vs. money. e.g. $50 for a straight dub of the jumps, and nothing else would be way too much.

Some people would say "But why should I pay for my own footage??". The fact is, you are not. You are paying for the time, cost, skill to assemble everyone's footage (which everyone has given without charge) into a meaningful production.

j

[SurfFlite 0]

I see it this way:

Why should a competitor get a video, for free, that has every team who participated at NAT's on it. The team camera person already has their own teams jumps on video and can watch them anytime they want (unless they recorded over it) Even if every one of your rounds where on the video (which they won't be) it would only amount to less than 7 minutes. What entitles you to see how well everyone else did without paying for the video? Do you think that just because you are a participant in the Nat's that you should be treated "special" and not pay.? Who do you think you are Ol.. OOPs

Kerry