Starting Freefly early - problems

[bertusgeert 1]

Like I mentioned in another thread, I do not quite understand why there is so much negativity towards people with fewer jumps that are moving into freeflying.

Some say that it is more dangerous than bellyflying - you need to develop much more awareness before attempting things you dont understand, staying off of jumprun for instance. You dont need to endanger yourself and others doing stupid things.

Others' concern might be more for the jumpers actual learning, that good base in RW will enhance the Freefly learning curve later on.

Personally, I do not see the problems. If you have the correct and safe equipment, why not give it a shot? I have met some people with very few jumps who have some very good freefly footage, and others who have many jumps that can't do jack.

So why not let the people who want to freefly just do it? It's their money, let them spend it the way they want to!

I open this thread to better attack the issue - WHY should early jumpers not attempt freefly?

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As jy dom is moet jy bloei!

[hookitt 1]

I'll ask you this. What is freeflying to you? As you exit the plane as a newbie that wants to freefly, what is your plan? Describe a skydive or 2.

There is a point to this, so bear with it. It's probably a bit more on your side than you think.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[bertusgeert 1]

Smart Question...

I talked to a good few freefliers to see what they reccomend, and tried to follow their advice.

I need to learn how to Sit before even thinking about HD. Kinda like arching when you first learn.

So on my last freefly jump, my fifth jump that could be labeled as such, my goal was to work on sitflying. I went into a sit right out of the plane and maintained it for a good few seconds before losing control. I got stable in belly to earth and tried to transition to a sit again, and once again maintained it for a few seconds. And repeat... (I did keep in mind to face perpendicular to the jumprun and tried to do so)

THe jump before, I did a sit exit out of the Skyvan with a freeflier friend holding on to my shoulders, goin HD. We maintained it for a few seconds. It was basically the same idea, but he would be there to act as a reference, like a skyball. He could also later give me advice, of which i received plenty. I did sit with him for a quite a while on that jump.

So what was so wrong with that, what did I miss that I needed to pay more attention to that would agrivate so many people?

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As jy dom is moet jy bloei!

[ccowden 0]

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WHY should early jumpers not attempt freefly?

Same reason someone with 50 jumps shouldn't be flying a crassbraced canopy loaded at 2.0. There are too many added risks that someone of this level is not ready for or can fully understand without more experience.

There are many added risks to freeflying with fallrate control and movement. You need experience in the air and have a very solid base of freefall time before you move to a new discipline. The same reason you wouldn't see the same jumper on a 50 way or doing a CRW 4 stack.

Freeflying can be learned early in your career and done safely, but it is nothing that should be rushed into. The simple fact that someone might not understand why they shouldn't be jumping right into freeflying says pretty clearly that they don't understand the risks involved. If you don't understand the risks, it is too early to be thinking about it, in any discipline.

I think the best thing a new jumper can do is to ask an instructor their opinion if they are ready to move on to something new, and ask what the best way to start would be. Yes, it is their money, but it is also the safety of others and the DZ owners business. A skydiving license doesn't give anyone the right to do whatever they want just because it is their money. This policing of ourselves is what is making this a safer sport in these modern times.

[hookitt 1]

I guess I missed the aggrevation part.

Honestly there's nothing wrong with freeflying right away. But I'd consider going about it a little different.

Sit is just a position. If you'd like to learn quicker, go out and do some freestyle. Front flips, back flips, leg downs, spins... stuff like that. When I say flips, I'm talking many in a row. Do Layouts (straight body flips). When you learn to be in control when your out of control, a "sit" position is much easier. You'll learn to vary the speed and direction a whole lat faster if you go out and do something rather than just try and nail a sit for 40 jumps. One other thing, it's fun as heck!!! (I'd say fun as hell, but I'm not sure hell would actually be fun... come to think of it, what the heck, is heck)?

That said, do the freestyle solos, and also do some belly flying with some competant belly fliers. Trust me on this, you need that skill. A few belly dives a weekend to get comfortable with other people in the air, learn how to fly relative to another person ... with out their help, find out what funnel means... and more, it's important.

I didn't now what freeflying was when I started. I did see a picture of a stand, and some freestyle video. Wow... that's exactly what I needed. Immeadiatly I was out doing freestyle. Then i'd go do some RW with belly flyers. (Belly flyer wasn't a term yet). Belly flying came much easier after performing a bunch of layouts and such.

Freestyle will accelerate the learning curve. Doing some RW will be a lot more beneficial than you may think at the moment but seriously, it will be beneficial. It fun and you will learn alot.

If you want to freefly, do it. But I do believe you should get some RW under your belt as well. Flail about doing freestyle and just go nutz on occasion.

LEARN your equipment too. It needs to stay shut untill you want it open.

Hope that helps.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[bertusgeert 1]

[reply The simple fact that someone might not understand why they shouldn't be jumping right into freeflying says pretty clearly that they don't understand the risks involved. If you don't understand the risks, it is too early to be thinking about it, in any discipline.

[nael 0]

I was speaking to a guy at the dz about this, because I really want to get into freeflying more than any other style (once I get my A). He has almost 800 jumps and didnt start freeflying until about 700 jumps and said I should do the same.

I didnt like the sound of this, because its going to be years until I have that many jumps (I cant wait that long!), but we talked about it and I decided I wouldnt start freeflying until I have 200 jumps (excluding the odd jump here and there). The main reason for this was to get really good at flat flying. He was saying he knows a lot of freeflyers who are really bad flat fliers and basically cant be involved in RW jumps simply because they dont have the experience flying like that and never put time into making themselves better in that area.

So, I guess thats also something to think about, but at the same time, I can see how getting unstable whilst attempting to freefly could also help improve a different area of your skydiving.

www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store

[bertusgeert 1]

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He was saying he knows a lot of freeflyers who are really bad flat fliers and basically cant be involved in RW jumps simply because they dont have the experience flying like that and never put time into making themselves better in that area.

Another question for those "do RW first" people. If I can getinvolved in a RW jump with 20 jumps under my belt, why can I not get involved with 500 jumps, 20 of them being RW? Does not make any sense to me...

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As jy dom is moet jy bloei!

[indyz 1]

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Another question for those "do RW first" people. If I can getinvolved in a RW jump with 20 jumps under my belt, why can I not get involved with 500 jumps, 20 of them being RW? Does not make any sense to me...

I live the opposite scenario. I've done maybe 30 sitfly jumps spread out over the last year and a half. Once I got to the point of being able to fall more or less straight down, I stopped making progress. Sometimes going a month or more between freefly jumps, I'm actually losing my already weak freefly skills (I corked on my last sitfly jump ). I get schooled by people who have the same amount of freefly jumps, the difference being that they have done all of those jumps recently, not one every few weeks or months. The same thing will happen to somebody who only makes one belly jump a month.

[Newbie 0]

this has been discussed before, here's an example

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=581852;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

Read what chris cowden said. The best way to get answers is from experienced people on the dz. They can demonstrate what can go wrong, and go over equipment with you. Even by going unstable on purpose and returning to a flat position, you are breaking a cardinal rule of ffing, which is not corking. Make sure you ball up when going unstable, rather than flat, so you don't cork. People die and have close calls every year due to freefall collisions while freeflying. Are you aware of jump run, and how to stay off it while attempting new moves/tracking away from formation? Can you tell if you are front/backsliding around the sky while attempting a sit? Is the elastic in your BOC tight, and the pin cover secure? Do you make sure exposed bridle and risers are tightly covered and protected? Do you have at least one audible altimeter? If you can't answer yes to any of these, i guess you know it's time to wait a while...

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Skyrose7 0]

I guess I think the risks lie in freeflying with others. If you don't want to invest in RW, you don't have to. I don't see anything dangerous about solo freeflys as long as you can get stable on your belly for pull time. I would just ask you this. Say you decide to do a two way with someone else. It can be very tempting when someone asks you and you think THEY know their shit. At this point, are you aware of your fall rate and able to vary it with that person? If not, what happens if you cork out and they are above you---what position would you go to? On break off, are you able to back away from a formation before turning over to track? Can you stay stable in a sit to identify where others are before going to belly? I think you can develop a lot of skills you would use in freeflying by doing some RW. RW's not all bad. Understanding the principles of moving your body through the air may as well be done at a slower speed as a novice. I am not discouraging you, but it is more dangerous. A freefall collision in a freefly position can be fatal. Maybe not even for you, but somebody else. I think it is good you are trying to become aware before getting into it. I would say- solo, solo, solo. Good luck

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The mind is like a parachute--it works better when it is open. JUMP.
MaryRose

[freeflybella 0]

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I don't see anything dangerous about solo freeflys as long as you can get stable on your belly for pull time.

There are MANY things potentially dangerous about solo FF jumps.

Most of them are gear related. And at 40 jumps (to the original poster), without custom-fitted new gear edited: even WITH custom gear!, you don't even realize what those dangers could be.

The rest are jump run, exit separation, flight line and altitude awareness related. (The faster speeds - even though you won't really be vertical for awhile, you will transfer more energy to horizontal speed - will move you around the sky more. Plus all the flipping and flopping you do can distract you from checking your altitude.)

But skyrose7 is right - those dangers still exist, but have MANY more dangers added to them when ff'ing with others. And the more poeple you add to your jump, the more dangers there are.

There is alot to learn, but there should be - it's skydiving. If you want to put it into perspective, what you talk about, read about, observe from video, get from ground school, etc. is 95% of your skydiving education. The jumps (where you practice what you learn) are like 5%.

Learn it slow, learn it thoroughly. If you apply that to every discipline, I don't think there isn't any reason you can't (solo) FF with 20 jumps.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[bertusgeert 1]

So doing RW teaches you WHAT that will relate to Freeflying?

THe only things I can think of is awareness of others around you, because that is what will be dangerous. The main danger that I see reference to here is collisions with others, and gear related. But will doing RW drastically increase the ability to identify these problems? Not always... I think it much more depends on the jumper...

I have been to 5 different DZ's, have jumped out of 10 different aircraft, have done 2 way, 3 way, 4 way formations, have done more than one freefly jump with experienced jumpers, participated in a hybrid... I can go on... I read these forums every day, I read parachutist and skydiving several times through, look at incidents a lot, and watch all the videos I can get my hands on... On several occasions I have participated in discussions about gear and skydiving with very experiences people, and jumpers with double my numbers are lost in the conversation...

I am not egotistic, you will see that when you meet me, all I am saying is that you cannot always judge someone by his jumps...It depends much more on his education of skydiving, some people who have many jumps know jackall.

That does not take away from what jumps teach you, You can have all the educaion you want, but if you dont jump enough, you cannot apply that knowledge. Jumps are a crucial part in learning and knowledge of skydiving.

So my big frustration here is the fact that many people look at newbies and say...You dont know jack, dont do that, dont do this, without even knowing the person's background and knowledge of the sport. I think it should be much more regulated by coaches who know you and your ability rather that posters telling you DONT, without knowing you.

I do apreciate everyones concern for safety, which I hope is the main concern here, safety from newbie freefliers as well as safety for those newbies.

Please just be more clear and specific in your reasons, just dont say.... DONT!

This applies to all disciplines, not just freeflying...

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As jy dom is moet jy bloei!

[NeedToJump 0]

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So doing RW teaches you WHAT that will relate to Freeflying?

It teaches you about air flowing over your body and how various motion will act on that airflow and move you. People with belly flying experience tend to have an easier time learning freefly than those without any.

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THe only things I can think of is awareness of others around you, because that is what will be dangerous. The main danger that I see reference to here is collisions with others, and gear related. But will doing RW drastically increase the ability to identify these problems?

During an RW jump you are moving more slowly through the air so you have more time to recognize problems and decide what to do. It may only be half a second more, but that can be the difference between life and death in this sport. Doing more RW jumps first will help acclimate you to being in the air and knowing what sorts of things to look for so that you can recognize when things are not right at faster speeds and react more quickly. If a deer jumps out in front of your car it is easier to avoid it if you are going 30 rather than 70.

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all I am saying is that you cannot always judge someone by his jumps...It depends much more on his education of skydiving

It is definitely a combination but number of jumps plays a huge part. You can know in your mind everything about how to technically fly head-down - what to move to go where, etc. This doesn't mean that you can actually do it. The amount of airtime you have determines the amount of applied knowledge you have. Period. Someone with more theoretical knowledge MAY be able to apply this knowledge and therefore learn more quickly, but it doesn't change how much air time you've got.

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I think it should be much more regulated by coaches who know you and your ability rather that posters telling you DONT, without knowing you

The posters here do not regulate you at all, we can only give advice based on our own experience. The reason most people on here tend to give conservative advice is because we don't know you and have to assume that you are "average." (Not refering to you specifically.) If you post to an open forum then expect to get answers from people who don't know you and therefore cannot give you an answer specific to you.

Also keep in mind that in this sport it is always better to err on the side of safety.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[freeflybella 0]

Reread my post. You misunderstood.

My point was that

1. There are dangers in even doing solo FF jumps. Find out what they are because they are not always 'intuitive'.

2. Keep your eyes and ears open, ask questions, watch videos, check out everything you 'learn' with an experienced FF'er (in person), preferably who knows you and your skill level.

If you do that, you can (more safely) FF as early as you want.

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I'm not sure why you feel the need to post your 'qualifications'. Perhaps you are the one person with 20 jumps who can fly circles around everyone else. If you know it, and the instructors/experienced ff'ers who know you- know it, why do 'we' need to know it?
I agree that just telling someone "NO" isn't always productive. But this is a message board, by nature the info here is meant to be general. It is not cyber-coaching. There is a lowest common denominator quality to what can be responsibly posted. Most people who will give you advice here don't know you. How could they possibly assess your skill?

If you truly do have your eyes and ears open, and read everything you can get your hands on - then you have already read here everything you are arguing for. Additionally, if you're as 'good' as you say, you're probably doing some fun jumps with safe people on your dz.

It seems to me that your frustration really lies in just being a 'newbie'.

I was aggro when I started, too. Just remember to be smart and aggro. And smart often means quiet.

Finally, just for the record, you can learn something from everyone. Even those who YOU think don't know jackall.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[bertusgeert 1]

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It seems to me that your frustration really lies in just being a 'newbie'.

I was aggro when I started, too. Just remember to be smart and aggro. And smart often means quiet.

HAha, looking back at my posts, I wonder why I wrote what I did. I had a series of bad days at work, sorry for letting that come into my posts people.

Anyhow, I apreciate the people who do care and are watching out. Many just condemn without reason, or so it seems. Being a newbie does suck, when you see what you wanna be but you are years away from coming close. But on the other hand, skipping it wont work either, you gotta go through the steps.

So I will return to my humbleness, sorry for being agro and irritated. I understand people's concern a little bit better now.

And as for posting my "qualifications", I was trying to illustrate a point that jump numbers does not indicate the person's ability. But like someone said, knowledge is no good if it is not applied, and that is true. I apologize to you all for being immature here!!!

Thanx all for at least being concerned!

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As jy dom is moet jy bloei!

[freeflybella 0]

Your enthusiasm shows.
I'll bet you're fun to jump with!



The debriefs, on the other hand...

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[goose491 0]

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Your enthusiasm shows.
I'll bet you're fun to jump with!

What!!??!... His AVATAR shows!... I knew it! he's a goddamned narcotics agent!... You can't jump here man! This is Bat Country!

Nice one man


Sit flying on jump 28 (to stay with the post at hand)
Nick

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[freeflybella 0]

How long could we maintain? I wondered.

How long until one of us starts raving and jabbering at this boy? What will he think then? This same lonely message board was the last known home of the Manson family; will he make that grim connection when my goose491 starts screaming about bats and huge manta rays coming down on the screen?

If so, well, we'll just have to cut his head off and bury him somewhere, 'cause it goes without saying that we can't turn him loose. He'd report us at once to some kind of outback Nazi law enforcement agency and they'll run us down like dogs.

Jesus, did I say that? Or just think it? Was I talking? Did they hear me?

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[GravityGirl 0]

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Being a newbie does suck, when you see what you wanna be but you are years away from coming close. But on the other hand, skipping it wont work either, you gotta go through the steps.

Skydiving is soooooo much the journey and not the destination. Each and evey mile stone and progression infused with adrenaline and celebrated with beers at sunset under a blood red sky with friends you harldy know but can totally relate to!

They years pass all to fast. I've blown through 10 already. 10 unbelievable, non-regratabel, fast-passed, no-holds-barred years.

So, dude! Sit back, don't relax and enjoy the flight! Enjoy each and every bit of your journey.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!