Freefly Standards?

[davelepka 4]

After looking over the thread regarding the incident in Z-Hills, it's not the event itself that bothers me (although it does), it's the difference of opinions that I'm seeing regarding what should have happened.

How is it that a group of new freeflyers are expected to know what or how to do things, if a group of experienced freeflyers can't seem to agree on how things should be done?

In the interest of forming a consensus on some basic safety procedures, I'll throw out a few suggestions, and hopefully we can add to or modify them as needed, and end up with a solid reference for the new guys.

This would be something we could post elsewhere in DZ.com or get stickied to the top of this forum, or even printed in one the many fine skydiving magazines out there.

Here's the thing, this is a list of safety concerns or procedures, not style or technique issuses. Please keep that in mind when submitting suggestions. Also, this is all just rolling off the top of my head, so I type anything too stupid, at least I have a reason.

Assuming you are aware of the gear requirements, as well as the shorter freefall times you can expect then:

SOLO JUMPS

1. Freeflyers should begin with solo jumps. Ground coaching from a reputable source is recommended, and in air coaching should be limited to those qualified to adminster it ('qualified' being accepted by all on the DZ as a good and safe freeflyer).

2. Begining with a sit is a good idea. Head down is acceptable provided that you can establish and maintain a heading 90 degrees to jump run. The high horizontal speeds often found in begining HD attempts makes this critical for not introuding into the airspace of the previous/prior groups in the AC.

3. If you begin with the sit, once you can hold the position reliably, and can control your heading, you can attempt to fly HD. Establish a heading 90 degrees off of jumprun, attempt a transition, hold the position for 5 sec., then return to your sit to re-establish your heading. Repeat. Do this unitll you find your HD awareness such that you can maintain your heading while HD.

Please understand that a HD flyer who is driving forward or back can quickly cover the distance between groups from the AC. Your heading control/maintenence is critical unitl you can establish that you are falling straight down, which can only be done with a qualified second jumper.

2 WAYS

1. Before juping with another jumper who is not qualified to teach, make sure that both jumpers can hold a heading throughout the entire jump. This is crucial for maintaining visual contact. The most dagerous situation is when you don't know where the other flyer is. If the two flyers can at least face each other the whole time, this problem is eliminated.

2. Be sure that you limit your body positions to those in which you can hold a heading. If your sit heading is good, but your HD is only OK, do not attempt to fly HD with an un-qualified jumper.

3. Plan your dive, then dive your plan. If the plan calls for a two way unitl 5000ft, stick with that. In the event of vertical or horizontal separation, continue to try and fly together unitl 5000 ft, then turn 180 and track a safe distance from your partner. Your ability to control your heading will ensure visual contact, and ensure that you know where to track.

4. If you are going to go through clouds, do not proceed with the 2 way unless both flyers can control flight on all axis, and have proven that they can stay within 10 to 15 ft of other jumpers at all times. If coulds are present, discuss this on the ground. If in checking the spot, you see you will go through clouds, plan B is 2 one ways. This can be decieded in the door at the last second. Make sure that the first jumper does not delay his exit relative to the group in front of him, and that the second jumper leaves adequate separation for the upper winds that day.

3 WAYS AND BIGGER

1. Every flyer on the jump must have control of heading, fallrate and proximity in their chosen body positions before attempting a 3 way or bigger. Without this control, loss of visual contact will occur quiclky between some or all of the flyers. The increase in danger and complexity between a 2 way and a 3 way is huge. However, if you can safely perform 3 ways, the move up to 4, 5, or 6 ways is relatively simple.

2. SEE RULE 3 FROM THE SECTION ON 2-WAYS

3. SEE RULE 4 FROM THE SECTION ON 3-WAYS. The difference is that changing the plan on a 3 or 4 way at the last minute is harder. Have a plan B in place, including the smaller groups you will split into, and simple exits for those groups. Make sure that the smaller groups will be safe in of themselves. Pair the stronger flyer with the new guy and the intermediate can do the solo (or something similar). Keep in mind this is only needed if you can see that clouds may be a factor, and you still choose to board the AC with a larger group planned.

The increased speeds and increased range of fall rates found in freeflying make following the above suggestions crucial. In making judgements regarding your or anothers ability in regards to what type of jumps might be safe, err on the side of caution. Separation of 1000's of vertcal feet, and differences in fall rates of 50+ mph are not unheard of in freeflying. Understand that this is dramaticaly different than what you will see with flat flying, and that regardless of your skills and experience in flat flying, these situaitons can and do occur. By following the above suggestions, you can do your best to minimize these situations, and the incidents that can occur as a result of them.

[GeordieSkydiver 0]

Thats some of the best advice I've read on here, after my own expierences trying to learn sit fly.

Thanks.

Lee _______________________________

In a world full of people, only some want to fly, is that not crazy?
http://www.ukskydiver.co.uk

[weegegirl 2]

Thanks for starting this, Dave. It's a good idea. Obviously, something like this will never be "enforced", but having recommendations available is a great idea.

The only part that concerns me is:

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Head down is acceptable provided that you can establish and maintain a heading 90 degrees to jump run. The high horizontal speeds often found in begining HD attempts makes this critical for not introuding into the airspace of the previous/prior groups in the AC.

Personally, I think it's a BAD idea to start head flying before really learning to sit fly. How is the student supposed to know whether or not they are maintaining a heading of 90 degrees to jump run? How are they to know that they are not just back tracking or whatever? I have seen this way too many times, where a new headflyer thinks they are "right on", and can't understand why they ended up in the same airspace as the group ahead or behind them. Scary.

If someone wants to start head flying, don't you think it would be better to do 2 ways with an experienced friend or coach until they have found the "neutral spot"?

Just my thoughts.

[davelepka 4]

Sure, best way to learn is with a coach. Given that most people are not going to have a coach handy, they will ahve to learn on thier own.

I'm not sure how sit skills will really help to learn head down. There may be some advantages, such as being used to working at higher speeds, and flying somewhat un-stable (compared to belly down) positions, but it's almost comparing apples to oranges.

You can't stop people from doing what they will do, and people will fly HD first, it's 'cooler'. What you can do is illustrate the dangers of what their doing, and offer suggestions for minimizing that danger. I explained the importance of holding a heading 90 degrees off of jump run twice (actaully three times is you count the idea of HD for 5 sec., then back to the sit to re-establish a heading), in hopes making an impression.

Additionally, I mentioned at the bottom the importance of being realistic in assesing your ability with regards to what you may or may not be ready for.

Given that, the best plan (I think) for a new flyer is to make the 90-dgree-off-of-jumprun heading a priority. This way, any forward or backward movement results in an "adjusted" spot for the flyer, not a danger to others on the load.

There is no way, nor am I suggesting, that this list should be enforced. This is more of a quick 'how-to' in regards to start freeflying safely. As long as you can stay in your onw airspace, the rest is up to you. Lets face it, as far as freefall goes, the biggest danger is collisions. Avoid that, and you're in good shape.

[freeflydrew 0]

I think that learning to back fly is more important than learning to sit fly as it switches your "safe" position from belly to back once you do start flying upright or head down... Perhaps this should be the first orientation studied?

[davelepka 4]

Thats a thought. As opposed to suggesting a progression though, I'd like to stick to the basic safety principal of keeping a flyer in their own arispace, and out of others.

I'll reword it to include backflying in with the HD. A backflyer with too much legs out will have the same sort of 'excessive' drive as a fist time HD guy. I like the sit to start because of it's lower likelyhood to produce significant dirve.

[EricaH 0]

First off, let me say that I LOVE THIS!! I forced myself to do at least 100 belly jumps, then to be able to do whatever i wanted in my sit, now I'm starting on my HD. i will jump w/ someone as new as me hd, but they are in a sit position (at least as good as my own) while i'm hd & i'm sitting while they're hd - that what you have some sort of teather in the sky.

this summer i saw a man who could not get stable in a sit trying to teach himself HD. i told him to make sure & turn 90 off jump run. he said ok. on one jump, he ended up opening right w/ the group in front of him, on the next jump he was 2 groups back - talk about SCARY!! this man couldn't even figure out jump run & then figure out how to make sure he was holding a heading. i talked to the s&ta, now he has to do coach jumps if he wants to try hd. personally, I will never leave the plane before him (unless for some bizzare reason i'm doing rw).

I am under the impression that jumpers in some parts of Europe and Australia have to pass some kind of course/coaching/jumping experience before they can free fly & before they can advance to hd from a sit. is this true? and if so, could it be implimented in the states somehow?

i was @ SDC chatting w/ a friend. his daughter was a new jumper & decided to try sitting. she had so much forward drive when her knee ran into her jump partner's shin, the person thought they'd broken something. a coach @ SDC told the girl that if she could show him 100 belly jumps logged, he'd coach her for free till she could sit fly. otherwise... she's on her own. I think it's great someone at such a level is willing to volunteer, but if she isn't safe & wait, then she's even less safe & jumping alone.

anyway, i said all that to say that I agree, something should be done. some kind of standard set.

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[GeordieSkydiver 0]

We have to pass FF1 to FF jump with others.

I aways thought it was BS until I learned enough to know different.

Lee _______________________________

In a world full of people, only some want to fly, is that not crazy?
http://www.ukskydiver.co.uk

[Levin 0]

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2 WAYS

1. Before juping with another jumper who is not qualified to teach, make sure that both jumpers can hold a heading throughout the entire jump. This is crucial for maintaining visual contact. The most dagerous situation is when you don't know where the other flyer is. If the two flyers can at least face each other the whole time, this problem is eliminated.

i haven't read the thread regarding an incident in z-hills (going too).

i think what you've written is really good. i would like to add the ability to make in place 360's to your suggestion above. reason being because 2 people can hold a heading doesn't mean they are falling straight down. if one or both of the jumpers have a foward drive then the other jumper is going to have to turn to keep him in eye sight. if that other jumper can make his turns in place then that will minimize more unintentional movement.

when i'm coaching someone that is just getting started freeflying. i focus on getting that person ready for 2-ways because thats what they want to be able to safely do as quick as possible. once someone has a stable sit and can hold a heading, i start teaching forward movement and 360 turns. i don't put any emphasis on flips or cartwheels. i don't feel those 2 skills are really necessary for safe 2-ways. I feel those are tricks they can learn on their own time.

[Levin 0]

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a coach @ SDC told the girl that if she could show him 100 belly jumps logged, he'd coach her for free till she could sit fly. otherwise... she's on her own.

Meg, Rodney, Brit and I coach and load organize for free every weekend at Skydive Houston. Only cost is your slot ($15). The coaching is available for anyone.

[apoil 0]

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Im not sure how sit skills will really help to learn head down.

Shocking to me that someone would say this, while at the same time trying to suggest safety standards and guidelines for freeflying.

When trying to learn head down - emphasis on trying - what is someone going to recover to, if not to a sit? Belly/Headdown/Belly is not a particularly easy transition, and it is especially difficult for any but the best coaches to work with.

Just about every freefly coach that I know of, requires at the very least basic sit proficiency before proceeding to head down, and most require a fairly high level of head-up accomplishment before moving on.

[Levin 0]

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When trying to learn head down - emphasis on trying - what is someone going to recover to, if not to a sit? Belly/Headdown/Belly is not a particularly easy transition, and it is especially difficult for any but the best coaches to work with.

hd is my safety position. when i started i made about 40 sit jumps. then i made 1100 almost consecutive hd jumps where i stayed hd from exit to breakoff. of those jumps i did very few flips or cartwheels. in the time that it took me to make those jumps i became so uncurrent in my sit that i couldn't do anymore. i had to relearn the position. while I was learning to sit again i lost my balance a few times and instinctively went straight on my head.

[davelepka 4]

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i would like to add the ability to make in place 360's

My general thinking is that most people start off with a turn of some sort. If they can stop it, they have 'control' over that axis, leaving them able to turn and face their partner at all times.

[davelepka 4]

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Im not sure how sit skills will really help to learn head down.

When trying to learn head down - emphasis on trying - what is someone going to recover to,

The comments regarding learning a body position are all limited to solos. It clearly states that two ways are only for body positions you have a modicum of control over.

With that in mind, what is a first time sit flyer going to recover to when 'trying'? Even a 20 jump wonder has the arch built into their mind as the 'natural' freefall position, and this is what they will revert to. Any type of 'recovery' position you could teach to an aspiring sit flyer, could apply to a beginner HD flyer. Yes, the transitions will be tougher, and it may not be the best way to go (I do say that syarting with a sit is recommended), but it is feasable.

If a jumper has a coach or mentor (even just on the ground) to teach a recovery position of some sort (which needs to be taught in both sit or HD scenarios), they will most likely try to steer them in the right direction.

In the end, the suggestions you are questioning are all refering to solos, where a cork is not an issue. Keep in mind, that people will do what they want. If they want ot go straight to HD, they will. At least they understand the dangers they pose to others, and have an avenuse with which to minimize this.

[davelepka 4]

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i told him to make sure & turn 90 off jump run. he said ok. on one jump, he ended up opening right w/ the group in front of him

This will happen. People don't always listen, and when they do, they sometimes have poor judgement in regards to thier abilities.

My thought with this was that if this is in writing, and people see that it's generally accepted, it might hold more water than a suggestion from 'some jumper' (no offense).

I do mention the concept of being realistic and cautious when assesing your own skills.

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jumpers in some parts of Europe and Australia have to pass some kind of course/coaching/jumping experience before they can free fly & before they can advance to hd from a sit.

While those coutries may be on to something, getting that sort of thing in place in the US will take YEARS. It's like the whole canopy coaching thing. We need more, and it needs to be mandatory, but that is taking forever to get in place. I've backed a WL resrtiction related to jump numbers as a quick and easy to implement partial fix to the canopy incidents we are having.

This list is similar in that if the info is out there, and people seem to support it, it will become 'the way' that things are done. Maybe it will be a requirement at some point, but if a list like this was posted at every DZ, it would be a step in the right direction. (Thats a clue to everyone that when this list can be finalized, hit 'print' and put up a couple at your DZ).

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she had so much forward drive when her knee ran into her jump partner's shin, the person thought they'd broken something.

I would question several things with this story. Was the injured jumper moving forward as well? Was their a vertical component to the movement? How much separation was thier before the impact?

Extreme forward movement in a sit is a difficult flight mode. Doing it without floating on your partner is even harder, and I would doubt that a 'qualified' flyer would allow this girl to get into a position where she could do that sort of damage. If her partner was not 'qualified', this is where my list comes into play, as she would have been doing a solo, or coached jump.

As far as the coach who won; thelp her unitl she has 100 belly jumps, thats stupid. If she has a problem now, help her now. Letting her continue on her own is asking for future trouble.

[WrongWay 0]

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With that in mind, what is a first time sit flyer going to recover to when 'trying'? Even a 20 jump wonder has the arch built into their mind as the 'natural' freefall position, and this is what they will revert to. Any type of 'recovery' position you could teach to an aspiring sit flyer, could apply to a beginner HD flyer.

Yes it could apply to a beginner HD flyer, which is exactly why, if sit isn't an option, backflying should be the recovery position, NOT the belly. Yes, the arch has been drilled into the newbie's brain, but instead of going with it, drill it back out. It took less than 20 jumps to get it in, and it probably won't take 20 more to get it out. Let's face it, the range of fallrate (when compared to freefly speeds) is much greater on the back than the belly. People can fall out of HD, go onto their backs, and not cork. Unless that given person weighs 230 lbs, the odds of them going from HD to belly without a dramatic change in fallrate are nigh on nonexistant. The question isn't what they WILL DO naturally, but how to make what the SHOULD DO what they WILL DO.

Then again, this is just my opinion, and you have a shitload more jumps/experience than I do, so take it as you will.

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If a jumper has a coach or mentor (even just on the ground) to teach a recovery position of some sort (which needs to be taught in both sit or HD scenarios), they will most likely try to steer them in the right direction.

Exactly, and hopefully they will teach them that a recovery freefly position should be something as close to a freefly speed as possible.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[dragon2 2]

Have you read the stuff the Babylon boys from Empuria Brave have on their website? They make you start out in a ball at first and you have to complete a bunch of excercises each time before you can move on.

Here in Holland we're not that strict, hoewver if you get your B license doing freefly (you have to pick a discipline and prove you can do the basic requirements for a competition) you'll learn a lot and are automatically cleared for HD with others. You are technically not allowed to do HD with other people who are not coaches otherwise, but people do, anyway.
For head-up, you may be stopped if an instructor realizes you're planning a 4way sitfly with 200 jumps between you, but most of the time you can go ahead. Which sometimes leads to problems (separation, heading control, gear choices - what, should I have asked if I could freefly this Invader?!) so probably some new rules will be implemented at some point..... We tend to love rules here

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Bartje 0]

Nice guideline Davelepka,

For the first generation FreeFlyers is the sitfly possition the safety position but for this generation a HD possition can be as well a safety possition.
Both are for me basic body possitions.

A FreeFly Gypsy

[Pendragon 1]

Interestingly, demonstration of some form of backflying ability is required in order to even progress to a sit position in the tunnel. When you've been freeflying in the tunnel, you begin to understand why! The problem is that backflying is actually quite hard although possibly essential to anyone trying to learn to sit fly since it's a good recovery position (well it was for me anyway!) and can be used to come back up if gone low.

As for people going "head down" straight away, I often really doubt whether they've actually got anywhere close to the position, or just found themselves tracking on their backs (and probably badly at that). How anyone could justify not learning to sit first (even purely at a rudimentary level) before attempting to go head down I cannot understand. The position is very disorientating at first.

What bothers me is that many people are trying to freefly and are in fact tracking all over the sky, which they wouldn't realise since the individual concerned does not have a frame of reference. Besides, if you can't fly relative to others you can't fly with others, and that's where the real fun is...

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[davelepka 4]

I'm not interested (as far as this discussion is concerned) in recovery positions, learning progressions or freefly technique. The purpose of this is to inform people of the realities of freeflying, and offer some guidelines to allow them to learn safely.


I feel that if you follow my suggestions, you'll have a clean and uncrowded airspace with which to work. What anyone does inside that space is up to them.

Sure, there are faster, better, and smarter ways to learn, but as long as you are relativley safe, and those in the sky with you are as well, if you want to flail around for 100 jumps, whip out your checkbook and go for it.

If you have ideas for a 'standard' progression, put your thoughts together, and fire up a thread. Additional information for new freeflyers wil only serve to improve the level of freeflyer we have to jump with.

[WrongWay 0]

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I'm not interested (as far as this discussion is concerned) in recovery positions, learning progressions or freefly technique. The purpose of this is to inform people of the realities of freeflying, and offer some guidelines to allow them to learn safely.

Point taken. My bad.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[Zoter 0]

Perhaps even a 'level' before backflying....
A couple of 'belly flyers' (for want of a better word) who have asked me about sitflying have been referred to instructors but also given my personal opinion of:
Solos.....go out and get used to spinning upside down...and knowing where you are ( in relation to jump run)
Lots of flips and loads of barrel rolls.....just get used to wind in different places and being comfortable with that.....as well as being able to quickly guage your heading when you get stable...
Basically.....mess around in the airflowBecause being upside down or not BTE is drilled into us newbies as bad bad.....being in these positions at low jump no's can elicit anxiety......I say get comfortable with it before you really start learning new flying techniques in these freefly positions.

[apoil 0]

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When trying to learn head down - emphasis on trying - what is someone going to recover to, if not to a sit? Belly/Headdown/Belly is not a particularly easy transition, and it is especially difficult for any but the best coaches to work with.

hd is my safety position. when i started i made about 40 sit jumps. then i made 1100 almost consecutive hd jumps where i stayed hd from exit to breakoff. of those jumps i did very few flips or cartwheels. in the time that it took me to make those jumps i became so uncurrent in my sit that i couldn't do anymore. i had to relearn the position. while I was learning to sit again i lost my balance a few times and instinctively went straight on my head.

Most freefly students don't learn that way, and all freefly schools that I know of don't teach it that way.

[PsychoBob 0]

Thanks to everyone for their input on this thread. I am a newbie and interested in freeflying and your comments have given me a lot to think about that I previously didn't know. I can't wait to get into sit fly and HD but I think I'll make sure my basics are covered first and then take my time with a coach. There are a few friends at the DZ that have said they will work with me after I get my B. It's more important to me that my fellow jumpers respect my abilities and trust me not to be an idiot that to rush into a higher level of performance totally unprepared. Thanks again for the info.

"I'm not a gynecologist but I will take a look at it"
RB #1295, Smokey Sister #1, HellFish #658, Dirty Sanchez #194, Muff Brothers #3834, POPS #9614, Orfun Foster-Parent?"

[diablopilot 2]

One of the big problems is that Freeflying has always been the "anti-social's" escape. Those that don't want to play with others, can't take criticisim, or don't want to go the "hard" route, have gone freeflying in the past. "instant experts" (*just add rig) are created every day.

Not saying this applies to everyone, but you're on to something. There needs to be a bit of standardization. A progression even. One doesn't go from to ways to a 60 way in belly flying, someone there for might want to gain proficiency in some aspects of freeflying before others......

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1. Freeflyers should begin with solo jumps. Ground coaching from a reputable source is recommended, and in air coaching should be limited to those qualified to adminster it ('qualified' being accepted by all on the DZ as a good and safe freeflyer).

Agreed. And "qualified" should include those that have the ability to teach. Just because someone is good at something, doesn't mean they are good at teaching. A good indicator that a person has made an effort to learn how to teach is a rating. Even the coach rating is good, as a major part of that program is to educate participants on how to convay information and make sure it's getting received properly. I encourage anyone who calls themselves a "coach" to acctually make the effort to be one.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.