Newbie 0 #1 January 12, 2006 I got my suit a couple of years back, a standard cut Flitesuit that i really like. However, compared to some of the stuff peeps are flying with today, i sometimes feel like i'm out of the 70's wearing a balloon suit! So what's the deal - has there been a marked move towards more streamlined, tighter suits in the last few years or is it just me? What's brought this about, if it is a common theme in the industry? Bigger formations = need for more speed and less drag perhaps? "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 74 #2 January 12, 2006 I think it's mostly because all freefly-gods are skinny bastards I need the drag JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Peej 0 #3 January 12, 2006 QuoteI need the drag These days, me too Don't think of iy as extra weight though, think of it as extra wing loading! Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Costyn 1 #4 January 12, 2006 QuoteI think it's mostly because all freefly-gods are skinny bastards I need the drag I think he means the suits like Da'Kine rags, which are huge baggy suits. Compared to that, what you wear is not baggy at all, Jarno. It seems a trend that I first saw here in Europe, with manufacturers like Matter and Sonic producing tighter suits. American companies now seem to be following suit. Although Bomber-flite suits were always pretty tight weren't they? Cheers, Costyn.Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 74 #5 January 12, 2006 One thing I've heard is that dual or triple layers of fabric on the end of arms/legs on a tighter suit, are catching the same amount or even more drag as the old style baggy suits, but just cause less flapping (which means less wear/tear and more accurate flying)JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newbie 0 #6 January 12, 2006 How can lower profile dual/triple layers get the same amount of drag as higher profile thiner material that is catching more air, so to speak? Just curious, i'm not too up on my physics here. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 74 #7 January 12, 2006 No clue if there's any truth to it....just something I heard But if you look at all the Babylon-freefly peeps at Empuria, everything they wear is pretty tight...but unlike me, they probably don't need a lot of fabric to compensate for lack of skills http://home.kabelfoon.nl/~fxcordia/photo/12_dec_empuria/02_mccordia_babylon1.jpg (me in purple/white, babylon dude in all white)JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newbie 0 #8 January 12, 2006 Yeah, here is a pretty unclear pic but you get the impression. Look at all that bulk flapping around me legs n arms! "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EXTremeWade 0 #9 January 12, 2006 In regards to Matter free fly suits, which down the sides of the legs and the arms, which are made of ZP, the company feels that having the air trying to go around the body instaed of fabric catching air creates just as much drag or even more at that. So, I guess these suits now can ber more streamlined wiht that type of technology..but I guess its personal preference...? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #10 January 12, 2006 Yeah, that looks like my suit. I am getting a new one soon though.Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #11 January 12, 2006 I'm far from an experienced (or even competent) freeflyer, but I did spend the past year cutting suits for Flite Suit. One of the projects we worked on last year was a trim suit (like the Matter and Ouragon suits) for the guys on Guano. What they were looking for was suits that are faster than the baggy type suits they'd been flying. Two of the guys have slim builds (ie fall relatively slow) and wanted minimal drag, one is a bit beefier (ie falls relatively faster) and wanted some drag but not as much as his previous suits. The reasoning behind the trimmer cuts was so they' could fly their bodies more than their suits. All three of them specifically wanted the torso, upper leg and upper arm areas to fit snug - more like a snug fitting (ie fast falling) RW suit and less like a pair of pajamas. The reasoning behind the snugger fit is that there is no benefit to having excess fabric in those areas - it doesn't improve your flying, in some cases it can hinder it, and having that excess fabric flapping around can be irritating and even painful. Flapping fabric in the key drag areas is an issue when you've progressed to more precision flying. Having a lot of drag on your control surfaces can make it more difficult to take or present a grip. It also encourages "lazy flying" when you are learning by allowing you to let the suit do the work instead of you doing the work. My personal experience - I had a Firefly suit from the late 90's - baggy arms and baggy legs. Last year I replaced it with a trimmer cut Bomber suit. Most of my jumps last year were spent sitflying. While I still suck at it, I find it much easier to fly and I have a much better body position in the trimmer suit than I did in my old suit - I've even managed to take a couple of arm grips, which would have been impossible in my old suit. Re: double and triple layers. Think about airflow through the material. The heavier the material, or the more layers of lighterweight material, the less air that will pass through the suit. Less airflow = more drag. Again, I'm far from good at freeflying. I'm sure those who are can explain this better and correct me where I'm wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newbie 0 #12 January 12, 2006 Do you know if i send my Bomber back to Flitesuit, if they would "taper" it in for me if i wanted? Would that cost much do you think? "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydonkey 0 #13 January 12, 2006 Check out the Sonic Suits that Babylon where using last year. They are tight ZP body with cordura-like arms and leg and hardly flap at all. You been hitting the tunnel up yet ? Yea, Definitely lop some off that clown suit of yours, so I don't have to contort my fat ass so much to float up to you Before you get your suit cut and shut, you could get someone to run a pleat up the arms and legs and try it out for feel. You simply turn it inside out and run a line up offset from the inside seam. You can wear it quite comfortably with the flap on the inside, and unpick it easy enough it it isn't right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #14 January 12, 2006 Dave I used to fly a baggy suit .....which you have seen (red, blue and baggy) I now freefly in a lower profile suit with significantly less drag... Benefits? flying is improved significantly because you have alot more control over the 'drag' you are presenting ....ie your body.... With a baggier suit that control of drag is not as well defined /felt and so is not controlled as well. Personally I have found that you 'find' the extra drag with your body position intuitively because you have increased awareness of the drag your body is presenting. The flappy suit kinda masks that feeling... Just my experience. Although as you know I have that nifty little feature on my current suit where I can unzip the arms and legs for more drag on jumps (mostly flat or when I just want to be lazy) where a fat oaf like me really needs to slow down.... But I can deffo tell the difference in 'control' when I have my suit baggy vs 'tight' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #15 January 12, 2006 when you have alot of drag, say on your legs and you try to spread your legs out to fall slower, you cant get them out as much, due to the force, as you can when you have a less baggy suit. with less drag, you can use your body more to fly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #16 January 12, 2006 Quote Do you know if i send my Bomber back to Flitesuit, if they would "taper" it in for me if i wanted? They can do it. It's best to mark the suit with where you want it cut back to (use pins or a fabric marking pencil) so it will come back exactly how you want it. Cost will depend on how long it takes, which will depend on how many areas you want trimmed up and if any of the seams in those areas are covered by the applique. I could be wrong but IIRC labor rate is $30 an hour. Call before you ship it so you can get a money and time estimate and so they know it's coming. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #17 January 13, 2006 QuoteQuote Do you know if i send my Bomber back to Flitesuit, if they would "taper" it in for me if i wanted? They can do it. It's best to mark the suit with where you want it cut back to (use pins or a fabric marking pencil) so it will come back exactly how you want it. Cost will depend on how long it takes, which will depend on how many areas you want trimmed up and if any of the seams in those areas are covered by the applique. I could be wrong but IIRC labor rate is $30 an hour. Call before you ship it so you can get a money and time estimate and so they know it's coming. Would it also be a good idea to apply thicker material under the areas that get the profile change? I'm assuming that this bomber FF suit is made of the lightweight supplex. I have some slimmer FF pants from Matter but the material is a stiffer poly cotton than my bomber FF pants supplex. I also noticed that the newer Matter wear is made with a polycotton not as "course" as the stuff made a few years ago even though its still a 65%~35% blend just a tighter and lighter weave. I also noticed that the increase in jet fuel and jump ticket prices have led some Free flyers not be able to afford the diet of an athlete. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OzoneJunkie 0 #18 January 13, 2006 One note: if you jump someplace that gets a bit colder in the winter, having a little extra fabric in the torso is good, so you can put some layers of clothes on underneath your suit. You want to be able to still zip up your suit Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newbie 0 #19 January 13, 2006 QuoteOne note: if you jump someplace that gets a bit colder in the winter, having a little extra fabric in the torso is good, so you can put some layers of clothes on underneath your suit. You want to be able to still zip up your suit Yeah it's also good for allowing my ever expanding waist line to breath It's more the elbow to wrist and knee to ankle area i would like taken in - the rest of the suit is sweet as. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flycurt 0 #20 January 13, 2006 Hey Newbie - There are many reasons to explain the trend of tighter fitting FF suits. But what I believe to be one of the main reasons is that people are becoming better freeflyers and require less drag, due to the improvement of their individual skills, i.e. getting their legs out. Yes, thicker or multiple layers of material will give more drag but even bigger guys like me, (230lbs exit weight) jump a relatively tight Matter suit, I can slow my HD fall rate to under 140mph, if I care to do so. Baggy suits have their place for new Freeflyers learning how to control their fall rate, because they haven't learned how to fly their body efficiently enough yet. When learning HD, there are so many things going on, that a person gets overwhelmed with the little things required to fly efficiently. One of the things I've notice is that since a person usually can't see their legs in the HD position, they tend to relax more and more as they decend through the jump. Which of course will increase fall rate. One of the things that I suggest to newer FF-ers, is to flex their toes toward their head. This will give you feedback as to where your legs are positioned w/o having to look at them. If you do this and can't feel wind pressure on your toes this usually means your lower legs are in the burble of your thighs reducing almost half of the drag you have available. So, unless you are under 160 lbs or so, you may need more drag until your technique improves and become second nature. Once you improve you technique wearing a baggy suit, you should then be able to notice how well you can control your fall rate range. After that, you will need to reduce the drag you fly with or your suit will begin to "fly" you, making slot flying more difficult. This is due to small lateral movements caused by the extra drag, that hinder a tight neutral HD position, i.e. little random "pushes" a few inches here or there become quite noticable and annoying. Eventually, you should be able to control your fall rate by either extending your toes for speed or flexing your feet to slow The other reason, simply stated is Fashion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newbie 0 #21 January 16, 2006 Thanks for the good explanation and advice. I have found since i've been learning HD that my suit - either through the extra drag - or myself (through being lazy) has more or less being flying with my lower leg in the burble of my knee. It is something i have been trying to address through. I'm not sure how much the suit is contributing, but i think i just need to push my lower leg out further. I am still a novice, so what do you think - keep the suit baggy for another season or so, then ask flitesuit to perhaps take it in a little for me? PS when you say point your toes to your head, do you mean sort of like what this guy is doing (sorry for the small pic) http://www.danwayland.com/jasonhdt.jpg "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MB38 0 #22 January 16, 2006 Just another image example. It has a fairly slight taper and is tighter than many freefly suits I've seen. The upper body is a little loose on me as I'm skinnier than the last owner.I really don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flycurt 0 #23 January 16, 2006 PS when you say point your toes to your head, do you mean sort of like what this guy is doing (sorry for the small pic)*** Yes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trae 1 #24 January 17, 2006 in reply to"I think it's mostly because all freefly-gods are skinny bastards " ............. I wonder how long before the fatties insist the skinnies strap on lead... has it happened yet??? In the flatfly world this happened when all the toads took over and upped the fall rate and mid-air strike rate... The higher fall rate helped them fly smooth without all that flapping going on. Freefliers might be different I suppose....still waiting for the proof of this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 140 #25 January 17, 2006 QuoteI wonder how long before the fatties insist the skinnies strap on lead... has it happened yet??? yes, I seen David G. wearing lead on Project Horizon. But it seems to me you have a bigger range of speed freeflying...scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
