feagajk 0 #1 August 23, 2003 Getting back into skydiving after a 2 year layoff. Was looking around for a new canopy since I put on a few pounds and heard good things about Cobalt. Below is from the cobalt website RE: wing loading. I've been jumping a sabre2 230 (exit weight 235), but in a cobalt their web site is saying beginners should load in the 1.2 to 1.4 range. At 1.4 I can make it in their 170. Seems like a huge and questionable jump in size. Any thoughts? What's the recommended wing loading on a Cobalt? The Cobalt canopy is an extremely efficient wing. It has the highest measured glide ratio of any skydiving canopy. The extra lift makes for a canopy that flies 'bigger'. To get equal forward speed when comparing to many other canopies you need to load the Cobalt heavier, i.e. 1#/’ on a Sabre should be compared to 1.2#/’ on a cobalt. 1.2-1.4 beginners 1.4-1.6 intermediate 1.6-1.8 high 1.8-2.2 pro 2.2-2.8 extreme max tested landed wingload 3.6# Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #2 August 23, 2003 After a 2-year layoff I wouldn't recommend downsizing at all, especially if you downsize and go to a fully elliptical. Start out on the Sabre 230 or similar and demo other canopies. I would suggest, in no particular order, the Sabre2, Safire2, Hornet, and Spectre. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feagajk 0 #3 August 23, 2003 Note: I ordered a sabre2, just wondering more about their loading recommendation. Seems awefully high. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #4 August 23, 2003 QuoteSeems awefully high. It is awefully high. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andy2 0 #5 August 23, 2003 im loading my monarch (similar to a sabre1) at .95 with 50 jumps and thats more than enough speed for a beginner, imo! I would feel like I was putting myself in danger if I jumped on a 1.2 or 1.4 now. YMMV but I think you're thinking along the right lines, go conservative right off your layoff and then you can step it up as you see fit. Blue skies! --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
betzilla 56 #6 August 23, 2003 As a gear seller, I can't imagine telling a 200 pound guy with 40 jumps to buy a 170, no matter how "big" it flies. My conscience would haunt me -- I'd be waiting for the inevitable small mistake that causes injury. Hopefully you bought yourself a nice big canopy. People tend to want to buy the smallest thing they can possibly manage. I think that's the worng attitude (and I've succumbed to it too). Give yourself some margin for error: just because you *could* buy a 170 and be within one company's wingloading specs, doesn't mean you should. It also doens't mean you could fly it wisely in a sticky situation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #7 August 25, 2003 Quotebut in a cobalt their web site is saying beginners should load in the 1.2 to 1.4 range. At 1.4 I can make it in their 170. Seems like a huge and questionable jump in size. Any thoughts? It is questionable...In fact its stupid. But that is the beauty of Dan and Co. They will tell you that the Cobalt opens better, glides farther, dives harder, loads better, packs neater, opens more on heading...Blah blah blah...Basicly according to them it does everything better than everything else. Hell it can be used as a reserve!!!! It is not a bad canopy, but it is not the best at everything...I have heard them tell one guy..."It has lower front riser preasure than the Stiletto" Then the next guy "It has more front riser preasure than the Stiletto"...Basicly they tell ya what they want you to hear. A novice should not be loading at 1.4...Just read the incident reports to see that. And what the hell is "Flies Bigger?" It just means that it CAN be flown higher since you can still get a flare...It does not FLY BIGGER when it comes to SPEED, and ALTITUDE LOSS in a turn. Just my thoughts Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cobaltdan 0 #8 August 25, 2003 beginner : someone with under 200 jumps typical wingload range for a beginner under a cobalt : 1.2 to 1.4 canopies do not all load the same. the cobalt loads .2# heavier than a saber for the same foward speed. this is not my opnion but measured fact. Instead of lying and skewing size measurements to make up for a more efficient wing i.e. calling a 160 a 170, as do some other manufacturers, we simply print the actual size and wingloading. no one would have the same knee jerk reaction if we said beginners should load 1.0-1.2 on a safire. but if you measure the size properly, the loading will be closer to our cobalt recommendation. as far as atair telling people what they want to hear: you couldn't be farther than the truth. We dont play marketing games, we dont skew our sizing and we are the only company that scientifically tests canopies with dataloggers and releases the data. any statement made can be backed with proof. i don t know about you but i do not want to hear a company make marketing claims like "absolutely the softest opening canopy period" i just want to see the force vs. time curve to prove it. anyway... sincerely, dan<><> atair aerodynamics www.extremefly.comDaniel Preston <><> atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jmfreefly 0 #9 August 25, 2003 Just my .2 cents: I have jumped a handful of cobolts, and I understand why people say that Cobolts 'fly' bigger.. In my opinion, they are mostly saying they have a strong flare, with generally 'bigger flying' characteristics. However, I have found that when you push the Cobolt, it will show its true size (hard hooks or unexpected low turns). It is the unexpected low turns that will bite someone who is unsure of the canopy when they first downsize. Done in a respectful, eyes-open manner, any downsizing can be successful. But not understanding the canopy performs in emergencies (or how you react in emergencies) can mean bad things. Good article by Scott Miller (deland canopy school) for reference about 'unexpected low turns' and how to 'train' for them www.performancedesigns.com/docs/98_low.pdf Well written, and a read for every jumper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #10 August 25, 2003 Quoteas far as atair telling people what they want to hear: you couldn't be farther than the truth. We dont play marketing games, we dont skew our sizing and we are the only company that scientifically tests canopies with dataloggers and releases the data. any statement made can be backed with proof. I have been told by your reps that they are the best opening...i had a Stiletto 107 so I tried your 105. It slamed the shit out of me on every jump I put on it...Then your rep told me it was because I needed a smaller pilot chute....Funny the Stiletto opened great with that pilot chute? Now why did I need to change a part of the container to get a better opening on my main? Another rep was telling a guy that said he wanted higher riser preasure on his Stiletto...He was told that the Cobalt had higher riser preasue than the Stiletto....Then later that day I heard the same guy tell someone else it had lighter preasure than a Stiletto. ????Which is it???? Or can the wonderful Cobalt actually have both? Quotethe cobalt loads .2# heavier than a saber for the same foward speed. this is not my opnion but measured fact. How about rate of decent, and altitude lost in turns? Speed is just ONE part of a canopy. QuoteInstead of lying and skewing size measurements to make up for a more efficient wing i.e. calling a 160 a 170, as do some other manufacturers, we simply print the actual size and wingloading. So everyone else is lying? I guess if everyone does not do it your way they are wrong then? Dan you have come on here and claimed that the Cobalt was perfect for jumpers from STUDENTS to PRO's.....Now how can one canopy be the best for EVERYBODY? I have heard you and your guys say that it opens best (If you change the pilot chute maybe). I have hear a rep tell different answers to the same question to different people. And the "wingload game" is something that alot of people do..."So you jump a 120...Here jump my 105 it flies better than X-brand 120". Then when they land they always like it...Its faster than the 120..This is why I tell people to demo the size they have first, then pick a size....But thats not how the game is played. The canopy did fly nice, opened like shit IMO , but did fly nice... But if you start telling people that its THE PERFECT canopy for EVERYONE.... Well its Bull. Dan I have heard the retoric from you....seen it in print..ect. It is not a perfect canopy for everyone, and I think its stupid to put people with 200 jumps under anything loaded at 1.4. So if you say its ok...Im gonna yell Bull. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
