faulknerwn 38 #1 July 5, 2005 We had an extremely close call at a Xenia Ohio CRW camp last weekend and its been discussed greatly on the CRW mailing list. I decided to post it here as well because there are a lot of people here who aren't on that list, and I see people regularly post at dz.com about doing their first ever CRW with the a Jedei or a Stilletto or even worse cross-braced canopies - and they don't have proper CRW training. They might make the same mistakes as were made here and not be so lucky. Anyway, what happened at this event was as follows: The first part of the skydive (the bigger-way) was uneventful. Afterwards, a fellow on a 176 decided to try and dock on a girl who was on a 126. It seems that the dock went poorly. She wasn't expecting it and it went bad. She properly called down to him to cutaway, which he did and landed uneventfully on the drop zone.. At this point, she has a perfectly functional main, and a 176 wrapped around her. At this point, the one thing that one should NEVER EVER EVER do is cutaway - you then find yourself in freefall with a canopy wrapped around you which of course would make it quite hard for the reserve to come out. You can hack away with a hook knife, try to free it, but you don't want to go into freefall. I might try and dump my reserve into my mess at some point, but never release the only good canopy you have. Unfortunately that is exactly what she did. She went into freefall wrapped in his canopy. She never pulled the reserve handle. Somewhere below a thousand feet 3 cells of HIS canopy inflated and she landed spinning in a cornfield in soft dirt. Everyone there thought she was dead. A couple of people landed with her, including a doctor, and after all was said and done, she walked away with bruises and a broken arm.... She's EXTREMELY lucky to be alive. In CRW, mindlessly cutting away during a wrap is not always the correct thing to do. Cutting away with a canopy wrapped around your body just made things go from bad to worse.. This happened on a 2-way with CRW squares - anyone out there doing 2-ways with ellipticals needs to be EXTREMELY aware of what can happen, how to fix things, and understand that as bad as things worse, they're 10 times worse on an elliptical wrap. You need to be knowledgable, versed, and ready to do the correct things and not panic during a wrap. I just see too many people doing CRW without proper knowledge of emergencies - and in this case someone we thought knew what to do, still failed to execute properly. She's very lucky to be alive... http://crwdog.servebeer.com/crw/crw.html W Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
boxingrrl 0 #2 July 5, 2005 I'm wondering if this might benefit more jumpers if it was posted in the incidents or general skydiving forums. Not being a CRW-dog, I don't often frequent this forum. Having witnessed the incident, I had hoped that someone more experienced could comment on the lessons to be learned. I came in just to see if a post had been made about it yet. Perhaps one of the other forums might reach that broader audience of skydivers tempted to try CRW without the proper training, or on high performance canopies with little experience. Of course, you're the moderator!!! Blues, Robin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
starkmtn 0 #3 July 5, 2005 I agree, Wendy. I looked first in "Incidents" and think it would be very helpful to CRWbies and wannabes to see this stuff. Just my $.02."You guys should just do CRW. There are so many more ways to get killed, it makes a CYPRES seem safe." -Kevin Keenan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krkeenan 0 #4 July 5, 2005 Quote Having witnessed the incident, I had hoped that someone more experienced could comment on the lessons to be learned. Quote What did you see of the person's descent ? I'm still interested in how a canopy that's wrapped around someone can land them at a survivable speed. What altitude did things start to inflate ? What did it do ? One big lesson is: Do not return to freefall unless your reserve has a clear path to deploy. Kevin K.====================== Seasons don't fear the Reaper, nor do the Wind, the Sun, or the Rain... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites selbbub78 0 #5 July 5, 2005 QuoteQuote One big lesson is: Do not return to freefall unless your reserve has a clear path to deploy. Kevin K. 2nd big lesson: make sure you always know and realizeto use your hook knife when needed 3rd big lesson: practice emergency procedures when under canopy. it seems like a big dfference from doing them in the plane with the arness shifting, and such. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stl135 0 #6 July 5, 2005 Based on the description of the incident above and previous comments: BIG lesson number ONE: If you cutaway, you WILL pull the reserve handle. It's like: exhale, inhale...there is no alternative. If you CAN NOT pull the reserve handle, then don't cutaway and use what you have to slow down and pray for the best. It's basic...it's from first jump course...it's a survival move...it's simply basic...it's purely basic... If a jumper cutaway and do not pull the reserve, I would have some serious talk to understand why and help the jumper evaluate his/her place in the sport. VM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites birddog 0 #7 July 6, 2005 A very lucky young lady, but have a couple of questions. How expirienced in crw was she?. How properly was she briefed on what to do in a wrap or entenglement. WHY did she cut a way a perfect canopy. I hope that this incident does not put her off crw altogether but a little forward planning on emergency procedures may be needed.Deal with it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites faulknerwn 38 #8 July 6, 2005 QuoteA very lucky young lady, but have a couple of questions. How expirienced in crw was she?. How properly was she briefed on what to do in a wrap or entenglement. WHY did she cut a way a perfect canopy. I hope that this incident does not put her off crw altogether but a little forward planning on emergency procedures may be needed. I think she had somewhere around 300ish jumps - not so sure on that. Over a hundred CRW at this point. She was invited to be on the Women's CRW record that ended up getting cancelled. She has CRW skills but clearly needs some emergency procedure refresher training. I'm not sure who trained her for her first CRW jump, but I know how to handle wraps and entanglements is in any first CRW jump brief I've ever heard. I also know we regularly push people to review some of the emergency procedures I have listed on my website. As to why she cutaway? She says she couldn't see and it didn't feel "good." Someone else there said it was flying straight but had a line twist in it. This all was happening below 3k, she wasn't expecting to do CRW, and I expect it was a variety of factors: 1. Not thinking about how being in freefall with a canopy wrapped around you is much worse than being under even a bad canopy. 2. She knew she was getting low and I suspect there was a bit of panic in there. 3. She said she was worried about a canopy downplane but a canopy downplane is better than no canopy.. 4. She forgot she had a hook knife that she could use.. 5. She had trouble finding her reserve handle because her hand wasn't on it when she cutaway and the wrap of course made things harder to find... She's a tough woman so I doubt she'll quit CRW altogether. I do know she will be getting a lot of emergency instruction before she gets back in the air though. She's got a lot of friends out there who want to keep her alive. W Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TVPB 0 #9 July 6, 2005 CRW EP's CRW Emergency Procedure Scenario's & Information - point 5 in the wraps section says it all. CRW Emergency Procedure from Wendy's site Scary Lucky Stay Safe Have Fun Good Luck Tom Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites boxingrrl 0 #10 July 6, 2005 QuoteWhat did you see of the person's descent ? I'm still interested in how a canopy that's wrapped around someone can land them at a survivable speed. What altitude did things start to inflate ? What did it do ? I think that it was fairly well explained above, but: I saw the low jumper cutaway and deploy his reserve. At that point, it looked-- from a distance-- as if his main was mainly tangled around the higher jumper's legs. She could have had more material in her face, obstructing her vision, etc. Again, it appeared that she had a fully inflated, flying canopy and would likely end up landing with the other jumpers main around her legs. Once she cutaway, her body (belly to earth) and the other jumper's main went horizontal. She began to propeller around. The inflation really seemed minimal from where I stood. But, others closer to her landing, indicated that her descent rate really had slowed-- some guessed to 25-35 mph. So, she was flat-spinning horizontally, rather than the vertical cork-screw/streamer scenario one might imagine at landing. The impact still looked as if it would have been fatal. Perhaps the propeller action gave her lift-- maybe it was just the right orientation and a glancing hit upon initial impact that saved her. The only thing I didn't see was the giant hand of grace/luck/God-- whatever you happen to believe in--that reached up and laid her gently down in that cornfield. I never imagined that we would find a person, conscious, alert and basically unharmed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nullified 0 #11 July 7, 2005 QuoteI'm not sure who trained her for her first CRW jump, but I know how to handle wraps and entanglements is in any first CRW jump brief I've ever heard. I am one of the two people involved in Bubbles' initial training. We were both very thorough and clear regarding situations and emergency procedures, and they were discussed regularly. Whatever happened in Ohio was not a result of any deficiency in her initial training. Bubbles, I am glad that you weren't hurt more than you are, and I hope that you heal fast. Best, Mike D. Ennis If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chuckbrown 0 #12 July 7, 2005 QuoteQuoteI'm not sure who trained her for her first CRW jump, but I know how to handle wraps and entanglements is in any first CRW jump brief I've ever heard. I am one of the two people involved in Bubbles' initial training. We were both very thorough and clear regarding situations and emergency procedures, and they were discussed regularly. Whatever happened in Ohio was not a result of any deficiency in her initial training. Bubbles, I am glad that you weren't hurt more than you are, and I hope that you heal fast. Best, Mike D. Ennis Regardless of who trained her for her "first" CRW jump, anyone interested in doing CRW is best advised to attend a formal beginner's camp. I was under the impression that Bubbles attended the one Frank Matrone ran in Cross Keys last year, and would have an an extremely thorough lecture on various safety issues and emergency procedures. If she never went through a formal beginner's camp, I think we're all to blame for not insisting that she have done so. Even if you've attended one beginner's camp, it never hurts to attend another because sitting through the lecture gives you time to seriously review what can go wrong and how to react in certain situations. This also applies even if you've done lots of CRW but have never attended a beginners camp and sat through the safety lecture. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cwn 0 #13 July 7, 2005 Vic, Quote If you cutaway, you WILL pull the reserve handle. No, that is not the one big lesson here. It is to NOT panic and cutaway when you're wrapped up in a canopy. If your reserve can't deploy it isn't going to help you to pull the handle. This is the fourth case I know of where someone cutaway while wrapped up in a canopy, so far we have been very lucky. Even landing your main with the other persons cutaway canopy still wrapped around you is better than cutting away with it wrapped around you. BSSD, Craig Nadler Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites docjohn 0 #14 July 8, 2005 Thanks for posting that incident. We just had a crw seminar last weekend for some crw newbies and we discussed situations like that. Its a good illustration of what not to do. I'm glad she lived and hope she recovers ok. Perhaps this will help save some lives. Doc http://www.manifestmaster.com/video Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites krkeenan 0 #15 July 10, 2005 That's exactly right. If there's anything attached to you anywhere from that other canopy, cutting away will be very dangerous. There have been a couple of occurrances lately, that may seem to belie that danger. Thinking clearly and properly analyzing problems, while scared shitless, is the only way to survive a long time in CRW. Luck certainly exists, but from a statistical viewpoint, it's not reliable in the long run. kevin k. [Quote No, that is not the one big lesson here. It is to NOT panic and cutaway when you're wrapped up in a canopy. If your reserve can't deploy it isn't going to help you to pull the handle. This is the fourth case I know of where someone cutaway while wrapped up in a canopy, so far we have been very lucky. Even landing your main with the other persons cutaway canopy still wrapped around you is better than cutting away with it wrapped around you. BSSD, Craig Nadler====================== Seasons don't fear the Reaper, nor do the Wind, the Sun, or the Rain... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mdrejhon 8 #16 July 21, 2005 QuoteUnfortunately that is exactly what she did. She went into freefall wrapped in his canopy. She never pulled the reserve handle. Somewhere below a thousand feet 3 cells of HIS canopy inflated and she landed spinning in a cornfield in soft dirt. Everyone there thought she was dead. A couple of people landed with her, including a doctor, and after all was said and done, she walked away with bruises and a broken arm....Are you telling me she had nothing out, and landed alive? Saved only by the mess of somebody else's canopy wrapped around her? That's amazing, if true... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites faulknerwn 38 #17 July 21, 2005 Quote Are you telling me she had nothing out, and landed alive? Saved only by the mess of somebody else's canopy wrapped around her? That's amazing, if true... Yep. Its true. She's one lucky lady.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BASE813 0 #18 July 21, 2005 edit: re-thought my views of putting this into the other main forums........................ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Greene 0 #19 July 21, 2005 Yes. This is very true accounting of the incident. Everyone at the DZ is still in disbelief. All are still wondering how such a thing could happen. SGC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BillyVance 34 #20 July 22, 2005 QuoteQuote Are you telling me she had nothing out, and landed alive? Saved only by the mess of somebody else's canopy wrapped around her? That's amazing, if true... Yep. Its true. She's one lucky lady.. Somebody mentioned on the crwdog list to add this line to the "You might be a crwdog if": You land a canopy that's neither your main nor your reserve. She was very lucky indeed..."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumper03 0 #21 August 3, 2005 and what of the guy that did the unintended dock? That seems to be the first link in the event chain here. <<<>>> to bubblesScars remind us that the past is real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites faulknerwn 38 #22 August 3, 2005 That was discussed on the CRW mailing list. He didn't realize she didn't want anyone docking on her (post-stacks are common practice at CRW events). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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selbbub78 0 #5 July 5, 2005 QuoteQuote One big lesson is: Do not return to freefall unless your reserve has a clear path to deploy. Kevin K. 2nd big lesson: make sure you always know and realizeto use your hook knife when needed 3rd big lesson: practice emergency procedures when under canopy. it seems like a big dfference from doing them in the plane with the arness shifting, and such. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stl135 0 #6 July 5, 2005 Based on the description of the incident above and previous comments: BIG lesson number ONE: If you cutaway, you WILL pull the reserve handle. It's like: exhale, inhale...there is no alternative. If you CAN NOT pull the reserve handle, then don't cutaway and use what you have to slow down and pray for the best. It's basic...it's from first jump course...it's a survival move...it's simply basic...it's purely basic... If a jumper cutaway and do not pull the reserve, I would have some serious talk to understand why and help the jumper evaluate his/her place in the sport. VM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites birddog 0 #7 July 6, 2005 A very lucky young lady, but have a couple of questions. How expirienced in crw was she?. How properly was she briefed on what to do in a wrap or entenglement. WHY did she cut a way a perfect canopy. I hope that this incident does not put her off crw altogether but a little forward planning on emergency procedures may be needed.Deal with it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites faulknerwn 38 #8 July 6, 2005 QuoteA very lucky young lady, but have a couple of questions. How expirienced in crw was she?. How properly was she briefed on what to do in a wrap or entenglement. WHY did she cut a way a perfect canopy. I hope that this incident does not put her off crw altogether but a little forward planning on emergency procedures may be needed. I think she had somewhere around 300ish jumps - not so sure on that. Over a hundred CRW at this point. She was invited to be on the Women's CRW record that ended up getting cancelled. She has CRW skills but clearly needs some emergency procedure refresher training. I'm not sure who trained her for her first CRW jump, but I know how to handle wraps and entanglements is in any first CRW jump brief I've ever heard. I also know we regularly push people to review some of the emergency procedures I have listed on my website. As to why she cutaway? She says she couldn't see and it didn't feel "good." Someone else there said it was flying straight but had a line twist in it. This all was happening below 3k, she wasn't expecting to do CRW, and I expect it was a variety of factors: 1. Not thinking about how being in freefall with a canopy wrapped around you is much worse than being under even a bad canopy. 2. She knew she was getting low and I suspect there was a bit of panic in there. 3. She said she was worried about a canopy downplane but a canopy downplane is better than no canopy.. 4. She forgot she had a hook knife that she could use.. 5. She had trouble finding her reserve handle because her hand wasn't on it when she cutaway and the wrap of course made things harder to find... She's a tough woman so I doubt she'll quit CRW altogether. I do know she will be getting a lot of emergency instruction before she gets back in the air though. She's got a lot of friends out there who want to keep her alive. W Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TVPB 0 #9 July 6, 2005 CRW EP's CRW Emergency Procedure Scenario's & Information - point 5 in the wraps section says it all. CRW Emergency Procedure from Wendy's site Scary Lucky Stay Safe Have Fun Good Luck Tom Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites boxingrrl 0 #10 July 6, 2005 QuoteWhat did you see of the person's descent ? I'm still interested in how a canopy that's wrapped around someone can land them at a survivable speed. What altitude did things start to inflate ? What did it do ? I think that it was fairly well explained above, but: I saw the low jumper cutaway and deploy his reserve. At that point, it looked-- from a distance-- as if his main was mainly tangled around the higher jumper's legs. She could have had more material in her face, obstructing her vision, etc. Again, it appeared that she had a fully inflated, flying canopy and would likely end up landing with the other jumpers main around her legs. Once she cutaway, her body (belly to earth) and the other jumper's main went horizontal. She began to propeller around. The inflation really seemed minimal from where I stood. But, others closer to her landing, indicated that her descent rate really had slowed-- some guessed to 25-35 mph. So, she was flat-spinning horizontally, rather than the vertical cork-screw/streamer scenario one might imagine at landing. The impact still looked as if it would have been fatal. Perhaps the propeller action gave her lift-- maybe it was just the right orientation and a glancing hit upon initial impact that saved her. The only thing I didn't see was the giant hand of grace/luck/God-- whatever you happen to believe in--that reached up and laid her gently down in that cornfield. I never imagined that we would find a person, conscious, alert and basically unharmed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nullified 0 #11 July 7, 2005 QuoteI'm not sure who trained her for her first CRW jump, but I know how to handle wraps and entanglements is in any first CRW jump brief I've ever heard. I am one of the two people involved in Bubbles' initial training. We were both very thorough and clear regarding situations and emergency procedures, and they were discussed regularly. Whatever happened in Ohio was not a result of any deficiency in her initial training. Bubbles, I am glad that you weren't hurt more than you are, and I hope that you heal fast. Best, Mike D. Ennis If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chuckbrown 0 #12 July 7, 2005 QuoteQuoteI'm not sure who trained her for her first CRW jump, but I know how to handle wraps and entanglements is in any first CRW jump brief I've ever heard. I am one of the two people involved in Bubbles' initial training. We were both very thorough and clear regarding situations and emergency procedures, and they were discussed regularly. Whatever happened in Ohio was not a result of any deficiency in her initial training. Bubbles, I am glad that you weren't hurt more than you are, and I hope that you heal fast. Best, Mike D. Ennis Regardless of who trained her for her "first" CRW jump, anyone interested in doing CRW is best advised to attend a formal beginner's camp. I was under the impression that Bubbles attended the one Frank Matrone ran in Cross Keys last year, and would have an an extremely thorough lecture on various safety issues and emergency procedures. If she never went through a formal beginner's camp, I think we're all to blame for not insisting that she have done so. Even if you've attended one beginner's camp, it never hurts to attend another because sitting through the lecture gives you time to seriously review what can go wrong and how to react in certain situations. This also applies even if you've done lots of CRW but have never attended a beginners camp and sat through the safety lecture. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cwn 0 #13 July 7, 2005 Vic, Quote If you cutaway, you WILL pull the reserve handle. No, that is not the one big lesson here. It is to NOT panic and cutaway when you're wrapped up in a canopy. If your reserve can't deploy it isn't going to help you to pull the handle. This is the fourth case I know of where someone cutaway while wrapped up in a canopy, so far we have been very lucky. Even landing your main with the other persons cutaway canopy still wrapped around you is better than cutting away with it wrapped around you. BSSD, Craig Nadler Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites docjohn 0 #14 July 8, 2005 Thanks for posting that incident. We just had a crw seminar last weekend for some crw newbies and we discussed situations like that. Its a good illustration of what not to do. I'm glad she lived and hope she recovers ok. Perhaps this will help save some lives. Doc http://www.manifestmaster.com/video Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites krkeenan 0 #15 July 10, 2005 That's exactly right. If there's anything attached to you anywhere from that other canopy, cutting away will be very dangerous. There have been a couple of occurrances lately, that may seem to belie that danger. Thinking clearly and properly analyzing problems, while scared shitless, is the only way to survive a long time in CRW. Luck certainly exists, but from a statistical viewpoint, it's not reliable in the long run. kevin k. [Quote No, that is not the one big lesson here. It is to NOT panic and cutaway when you're wrapped up in a canopy. If your reserve can't deploy it isn't going to help you to pull the handle. This is the fourth case I know of where someone cutaway while wrapped up in a canopy, so far we have been very lucky. Even landing your main with the other persons cutaway canopy still wrapped around you is better than cutting away with it wrapped around you. BSSD, Craig Nadler====================== Seasons don't fear the Reaper, nor do the Wind, the Sun, or the Rain... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mdrejhon 8 #16 July 21, 2005 QuoteUnfortunately that is exactly what she did. She went into freefall wrapped in his canopy. She never pulled the reserve handle. Somewhere below a thousand feet 3 cells of HIS canopy inflated and she landed spinning in a cornfield in soft dirt. Everyone there thought she was dead. A couple of people landed with her, including a doctor, and after all was said and done, she walked away with bruises and a broken arm....Are you telling me she had nothing out, and landed alive? Saved only by the mess of somebody else's canopy wrapped around her? That's amazing, if true... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites faulknerwn 38 #17 July 21, 2005 Quote Are you telling me she had nothing out, and landed alive? Saved only by the mess of somebody else's canopy wrapped around her? That's amazing, if true... Yep. Its true. She's one lucky lady.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BASE813 0 #18 July 21, 2005 edit: re-thought my views of putting this into the other main forums........................ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Greene 0 #19 July 21, 2005 Yes. This is very true accounting of the incident. Everyone at the DZ is still in disbelief. All are still wondering how such a thing could happen. SGC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BillyVance 34 #20 July 22, 2005 QuoteQuote Are you telling me she had nothing out, and landed alive? Saved only by the mess of somebody else's canopy wrapped around her? That's amazing, if true... Yep. Its true. She's one lucky lady.. Somebody mentioned on the crwdog list to add this line to the "You might be a crwdog if": You land a canopy that's neither your main nor your reserve. She was very lucky indeed..."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumper03 0 #21 August 3, 2005 and what of the guy that did the unintended dock? That seems to be the first link in the event chain here. <<<>>> to bubblesScars remind us that the past is real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites faulknerwn 38 #22 August 3, 2005 That was discussed on the CRW mailing list. He didn't realize she didn't want anyone docking on her (post-stacks are common practice at CRW events). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
stl135 0 #6 July 5, 2005 Based on the description of the incident above and previous comments: BIG lesson number ONE: If you cutaway, you WILL pull the reserve handle. It's like: exhale, inhale...there is no alternative. If you CAN NOT pull the reserve handle, then don't cutaway and use what you have to slow down and pray for the best. It's basic...it's from first jump course...it's a survival move...it's simply basic...it's purely basic... If a jumper cutaway and do not pull the reserve, I would have some serious talk to understand why and help the jumper evaluate his/her place in the sport. VM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birddog 0 #7 July 6, 2005 A very lucky young lady, but have a couple of questions. How expirienced in crw was she?. How properly was she briefed on what to do in a wrap or entenglement. WHY did she cut a way a perfect canopy. I hope that this incident does not put her off crw altogether but a little forward planning on emergency procedures may be needed.Deal with it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #8 July 6, 2005 QuoteA very lucky young lady, but have a couple of questions. How expirienced in crw was she?. How properly was she briefed on what to do in a wrap or entenglement. WHY did she cut a way a perfect canopy. I hope that this incident does not put her off crw altogether but a little forward planning on emergency procedures may be needed. I think she had somewhere around 300ish jumps - not so sure on that. Over a hundred CRW at this point. She was invited to be on the Women's CRW record that ended up getting cancelled. She has CRW skills but clearly needs some emergency procedure refresher training. I'm not sure who trained her for her first CRW jump, but I know how to handle wraps and entanglements is in any first CRW jump brief I've ever heard. I also know we regularly push people to review some of the emergency procedures I have listed on my website. As to why she cutaway? She says she couldn't see and it didn't feel "good." Someone else there said it was flying straight but had a line twist in it. This all was happening below 3k, she wasn't expecting to do CRW, and I expect it was a variety of factors: 1. Not thinking about how being in freefall with a canopy wrapped around you is much worse than being under even a bad canopy. 2. She knew she was getting low and I suspect there was a bit of panic in there. 3. She said she was worried about a canopy downplane but a canopy downplane is better than no canopy.. 4. She forgot she had a hook knife that she could use.. 5. She had trouble finding her reserve handle because her hand wasn't on it when she cutaway and the wrap of course made things harder to find... She's a tough woman so I doubt she'll quit CRW altogether. I do know she will be getting a lot of emergency instruction before she gets back in the air though. She's got a lot of friends out there who want to keep her alive. W Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TVPB 0 #9 July 6, 2005 CRW EP's CRW Emergency Procedure Scenario's & Information - point 5 in the wraps section says it all. CRW Emergency Procedure from Wendy's site Scary Lucky Stay Safe Have Fun Good Luck Tom Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
boxingrrl 0 #10 July 6, 2005 QuoteWhat did you see of the person's descent ? I'm still interested in how a canopy that's wrapped around someone can land them at a survivable speed. What altitude did things start to inflate ? What did it do ? I think that it was fairly well explained above, but: I saw the low jumper cutaway and deploy his reserve. At that point, it looked-- from a distance-- as if his main was mainly tangled around the higher jumper's legs. She could have had more material in her face, obstructing her vision, etc. Again, it appeared that she had a fully inflated, flying canopy and would likely end up landing with the other jumpers main around her legs. Once she cutaway, her body (belly to earth) and the other jumper's main went horizontal. She began to propeller around. The inflation really seemed minimal from where I stood. But, others closer to her landing, indicated that her descent rate really had slowed-- some guessed to 25-35 mph. So, she was flat-spinning horizontally, rather than the vertical cork-screw/streamer scenario one might imagine at landing. The impact still looked as if it would have been fatal. Perhaps the propeller action gave her lift-- maybe it was just the right orientation and a glancing hit upon initial impact that saved her. The only thing I didn't see was the giant hand of grace/luck/God-- whatever you happen to believe in--that reached up and laid her gently down in that cornfield. I never imagined that we would find a person, conscious, alert and basically unharmed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nullified 0 #11 July 7, 2005 QuoteI'm not sure who trained her for her first CRW jump, but I know how to handle wraps and entanglements is in any first CRW jump brief I've ever heard. I am one of the two people involved in Bubbles' initial training. We were both very thorough and clear regarding situations and emergency procedures, and they were discussed regularly. Whatever happened in Ohio was not a result of any deficiency in her initial training. Bubbles, I am glad that you weren't hurt more than you are, and I hope that you heal fast. Best, Mike D. Ennis If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckbrown 0 #12 July 7, 2005 QuoteQuoteI'm not sure who trained her for her first CRW jump, but I know how to handle wraps and entanglements is in any first CRW jump brief I've ever heard. I am one of the two people involved in Bubbles' initial training. We were both very thorough and clear regarding situations and emergency procedures, and they were discussed regularly. Whatever happened in Ohio was not a result of any deficiency in her initial training. Bubbles, I am glad that you weren't hurt more than you are, and I hope that you heal fast. Best, Mike D. Ennis Regardless of who trained her for her "first" CRW jump, anyone interested in doing CRW is best advised to attend a formal beginner's camp. I was under the impression that Bubbles attended the one Frank Matrone ran in Cross Keys last year, and would have an an extremely thorough lecture on various safety issues and emergency procedures. If she never went through a formal beginner's camp, I think we're all to blame for not insisting that she have done so. Even if you've attended one beginner's camp, it never hurts to attend another because sitting through the lecture gives you time to seriously review what can go wrong and how to react in certain situations. This also applies even if you've done lots of CRW but have never attended a beginners camp and sat through the safety lecture. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cwn 0 #13 July 7, 2005 Vic, Quote If you cutaway, you WILL pull the reserve handle. No, that is not the one big lesson here. It is to NOT panic and cutaway when you're wrapped up in a canopy. If your reserve can't deploy it isn't going to help you to pull the handle. This is the fourth case I know of where someone cutaway while wrapped up in a canopy, so far we have been very lucky. Even landing your main with the other persons cutaway canopy still wrapped around you is better than cutting away with it wrapped around you. BSSD, Craig Nadler Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
docjohn 0 #14 July 8, 2005 Thanks for posting that incident. We just had a crw seminar last weekend for some crw newbies and we discussed situations like that. Its a good illustration of what not to do. I'm glad she lived and hope she recovers ok. Perhaps this will help save some lives. Doc http://www.manifestmaster.com/video Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krkeenan 0 #15 July 10, 2005 That's exactly right. If there's anything attached to you anywhere from that other canopy, cutting away will be very dangerous. There have been a couple of occurrances lately, that may seem to belie that danger. Thinking clearly and properly analyzing problems, while scared shitless, is the only way to survive a long time in CRW. Luck certainly exists, but from a statistical viewpoint, it's not reliable in the long run. kevin k. [Quote No, that is not the one big lesson here. It is to NOT panic and cutaway when you're wrapped up in a canopy. If your reserve can't deploy it isn't going to help you to pull the handle. This is the fourth case I know of where someone cutaway while wrapped up in a canopy, so far we have been very lucky. Even landing your main with the other persons cutaway canopy still wrapped around you is better than cutting away with it wrapped around you. BSSD, Craig Nadler====================== Seasons don't fear the Reaper, nor do the Wind, the Sun, or the Rain... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #16 July 21, 2005 QuoteUnfortunately that is exactly what she did. She went into freefall wrapped in his canopy. She never pulled the reserve handle. Somewhere below a thousand feet 3 cells of HIS canopy inflated and she landed spinning in a cornfield in soft dirt. Everyone there thought she was dead. A couple of people landed with her, including a doctor, and after all was said and done, she walked away with bruises and a broken arm....Are you telling me she had nothing out, and landed alive? Saved only by the mess of somebody else's canopy wrapped around her? That's amazing, if true... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #17 July 21, 2005 Quote Are you telling me she had nothing out, and landed alive? Saved only by the mess of somebody else's canopy wrapped around her? That's amazing, if true... Yep. Its true. She's one lucky lady.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BASE813 0 #18 July 21, 2005 edit: re-thought my views of putting this into the other main forums........................ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Greene 0 #19 July 21, 2005 Yes. This is very true accounting of the incident. Everyone at the DZ is still in disbelief. All are still wondering how such a thing could happen. SGC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #20 July 22, 2005 QuoteQuote Are you telling me she had nothing out, and landed alive? Saved only by the mess of somebody else's canopy wrapped around her? That's amazing, if true... Yep. Its true. She's one lucky lady.. Somebody mentioned on the crwdog list to add this line to the "You might be a crwdog if": You land a canopy that's neither your main nor your reserve. She was very lucky indeed..."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumper03 0 #21 August 3, 2005 and what of the guy that did the unintended dock? That seems to be the first link in the event chain here. <<<>>> to bubblesScars remind us that the past is real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #22 August 3, 2005 That was discussed on the CRW mailing list. He didn't realize she didn't want anyone docking on her (post-stacks are common practice at CRW events). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites