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QuoteYou mean you don't remember giving me a talkin to about doing that when I was at lodi?
I mean...uh.... that never happened.
Yes, but you have already been talked with, so we don't chew twice! Trying to get the word out to others that this is a very dangerous practice.
Really, what is surprising to me is the number of very experienced jumpers who have this bad habit.
I understand that gear may be unfamiliar in some cases, but that shouldn't be used as an excuse. No jumpmaster would let a student out of the plane who insisted they needed to exit with a hand on the deployment handle (pud, boc, ripcord, whatever), so why do we tolerate that in more experienced jumpers? If you are borrowing gear, get it on early, practice touches, get familiar with the location of the handle, and then focus on getting a good exit.
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pirana 0
Just did a CRW camp, so only 5 jumps into it, but here is my take.
I found that by going out with hand on PC, My 3 second delay was EXACTLY 3 seconds. Not 3 1/4 seconds or 3 1/2 seconds because I maybe bumped it with the thumb. The 3 jumps with hand on pilot on exit I was perfectly on level; the first 2 without hand on pilot I was a bit low.
I found that by going out with hand on PC, My 3 second delay was EXACTLY 3 seconds. Not 3 1/4 seconds or 3 1/2 seconds because I maybe bumped it with the thumb. The 3 jumps with hand on pilot on exit I was perfectly on level; the first 2 without hand on pilot I was a bit low.
" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley
QuoteJust did a CRW camp, so only 5 jumps into it, but here is my take.
I found that by going out with hand on PC, My 3 second delay was EXACTLY 3 seconds. Not 3 1/4 seconds or 3 1/2 seconds because I maybe bumped it with the thumb. The 3 jumps with hand on pilot on exit I was perfectly on level; the first 2 without hand on pilot I was a bit low.
Thats actually more or less the reason I did it too. It was just easier for me to keep track of the seconds and be more precise with my pull time. Guess that falls under the "scared noob" catergory.
I don't see it as a problem as long as they aren't pulling as they leave the plane. Are the people you are watching leaving stable and then pulling when clear of the plane? If so no problem. If they are leaving with a hand on their PC and pulling immediately or unstable then that's an issue.
QuoteOkay, lets open up a long overdue discussion:
Interesting gripe. I've no desire to leave with hand on the hacky (or frog, or barbie head, or whatever in CRW). Then again I've never seen an issue caused by those who do it regularly. I've watched it happen out of Twin Otters and Casas plenty of times without a hitch, so it never really bugged me... just seemed different.
Chris
Then again I've never seen an issue caused by those who do it regularly. I've watched it happen out of Twin Otters and Casas plenty of times without a hitch, so it never really bugged me... just seemed different.
Chris
Chris
Exactly the way I feel about it. Stability is provided by the whole body not just the one arm that is not equally in the slip stream. I've honestly never given it a second thought until this discussion.
rehmwa 2
What an odd topic.
I think 'hand on hackey' is a nutty complaint. If your real complaint is a premature toss, then that's the point to make. (and you make some very good points to that position - especially about the opening consistency in the cleaner air away from the plane - the other stuff is basic safety concerns, so it's nice to see a point on performance too)
I bet you a dollar that any given jump, I could put my hand on my boc while loading the plane, and then keep it there on the ride up, the walk to the door, the exit, and all the way to dumping. Sure, my "confidence in my ability" will suffer, but I'll live. (Challenge psychology like that only works on the real simpletons).
As a passenger, my issue is whether or not the jumper throws the PC too early (or even back into the plane). That is a real problem - I could not care less where their hand is on exit. Actually, I could care less, but not much.
As the CrW jumper, I clear and pull - no more, no less - my hand is whereever it might be on that jump - on the PC in the door, or not - doesn't matter.
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
I think 'hand on hackey' is a nutty complaint. If your real complaint is a premature toss, then that's the point to make. (and you make some very good points to that position - especially about the opening consistency in the cleaner air away from the plane - the other stuff is basic safety concerns, so it's nice to see a point on performance too)
I bet you a dollar that any given jump, I could put my hand on my boc while loading the plane, and then keep it there on the ride up, the walk to the door, the exit, and all the way to dumping. Sure, my "confidence in my ability" will suffer, but I'll live. (Challenge psychology like that only works on the real simpletons).
As a passenger, my issue is whether or not the jumper throws the PC too early (or even back into the plane). That is a real problem - I could not care less where their hand is on exit. Actually, I could care less, but not much.
As the CrW jumper, I clear and pull - no more, no less - my hand is whereever it might be on that jump - on the PC in the door, or not - doesn't matter.
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
QuoteJust did a CRW camp, so only 5 jumps into it, but here is my take.
I found that by going out with hand on PC, My 3 second delay was EXACTLY 3 seconds. Not 3 1/4 seconds or 3 1/2 seconds because I maybe bumped it with the thumb. The 3 jumps with hand on pilot on exit I was perfectly on level; the first 2 without hand on pilot I was a bit low.
You are exactly the target of this discussion then. Now is the very time to establish good habits, before the bad one is established. What are you going to do if someone wants you to float an exit? How can you float and hold your hackey? And really, at your skill level, why is a quarter of a second so important?
The habit may be fine most of the time, but when the aircraft is different, the dive is challenging, the pilot is newer and likes to use more prop, maybe a seatbelt is under your foot and causes you to stumble, all these things combine to bring your deployment closer to the horizontal stabilizer. And you gain nothing. Speed to the formation is more a function of proper decisions and flying skills and less about getting gear over your head as fast as possible.
I didn't mean for this to be seen as a "gripe," but as a valuable piece of information that could save the lives of those you jump with and those still in the plane.
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sprtdth 0
QuoteSpeed to the formation is more a function of proper decisions and flying skills and less about getting gear over your head as fast as possible.
Yup. In my opinion, pulling in clean air is more important than pulling as fast as you can. Especially when jumping a CASA or Skyvan when you need to take a delay to get out of the twin prop wash.
If that half second is that important, you should have made another dirt dive or two.
CRW Skies
Frank
CRW Diva #58
Frank
CRW Diva #58
Baksteen 84
I'm used to a hackey, but the CReW rig I jumped this weekend had one of those plastic whatsits.
On the second jump I missed the handle on the first attempt. This surprised me, resulting in a less than ideal body position and hence a few line twists after I did open but I simply hung out in brakes until my instructor could catch up with me.
I really don't see what the big deal is - the exercise was that I had to dock him from the 'ideal' setup point and we still managed that five times on this particular jump. 
For the record - my other exits were fine.
"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom
~mom
QuoteWhat an odd topic.
I think 'hand on hackey' is a nutty complaint. If your real complaint is a premature toss, then that's the point to make.
I'd have to agree with Bill here. However, and Bill can attest to this, we've seen pilot chutes being tossed back into the plane. That's where the real issue lies.
Whatever happened to "Arch thousand, Reach thousand, Pull thousand? Learn it, practice it, and get good at it. It's one of the skill sets every skydiver should have.
The idea that you need one hand on the hacky to pull stable and on time is a bit ridiculous. Seems to me having that hand flying would be much more efficient??
Now, if your argument is that by having your hand on the deployment device you're protecting the device from snagging or accidentally being deployed, then I would say O.K.
Birdshit & Fools Productions
"Son, only two things fall from the sky."
"Son, only two things fall from the sky."
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I'd have to agree with Bill here. However, and Bill can attest to this, we've seen pilot chutes being tossed back into the plane. That's where the real issue lies.
Than that should be the focus to start the thread.
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The idea that you need one hand on the hacky to pull stable and on time is a bit ridiculous. Seems to me having that hand flying would be much more efficient??
The ridiculous part is suggesting that the hand isn't flying! Regardless of position of one hand the whole body is flying. I could fly a stable exit with both hands on the BOC.
QuoteI could fly a stable exit with both hands on the BOC.
Stable exit is not the same as a good exit. I've seen plenty of jumpers stable and on their back on exit. What you need is consistent and facing the relative wind. By having your hand on your hackey on exit you limit your flying ability and your ability to control the exit from the aircraft. If the plane suddenly shifts, or bobs because a large load just left, your hand is on your butt instead of a door frame or wall.
Your method is fine given good conditions, but I've seen enough "not so good" conditions. Newer pilot, a little more prop on that side, lower tail because a sudden weight shift, high stress dive so you're a little amped. Boom, you stumble to the door, timing off, and out comes your pilot chute over the tail.
I've seen a very experienced crw jumper do this on a load in Eloy, managed to get his pilot chute over the tail of a DC-3. And of course, his was the first team out, there were 30+ people still in the plane ready to do a door jam! So, it's only a "nutty complaint" if you haven't seen it.
Maybe this should be about "premature deployments," but really by getting people to think about this whole topic, maybe we can avoid death, destruction, or crw being banned from a dz because somebody freaked out a pilot by bouncing a p/c off the horizontal.
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http://crwphoto.smugmug.com/gallery/7667449_6S3jb#495001715_EUsdy
Here's a photo of a jumper leaving an Otter. The shot was taken from inside the Otter. He did NOT have his hand on the PC on exit. He was able to exit stable, grab the PC & deploy stable within 3 seconds.
Here's a photo of a jumper leaving an Otter. The shot was taken from inside the Otter. He did NOT have his hand on the PC on exit. He was able to exit stable, grab the PC & deploy stable within 3 seconds.
Maybe this should be about "premature deployments," but really by getting people to think about this whole topic, maybe we can avoid death, destruction, or crw being banned from a dz because somebody freaked out a pilot by bouncing a p/c off the horizontal.
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You are of course right, if the hand is free and away from the container there will be no premature deployments until clear of the aircraft. That solves that problem.
try this...http://crwphoto.smugmug.com/gallery/7667449_6S3jb#495001715_EUsdy
Birdshit & Fools Productions
"Son, only two things fall from the sky."
"Son, only two things fall from the sky."
Is that Feisty?
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You mean you don't remember giving me a talkin to about doing that when I was at lodi?
I mean...uh.... that never happened.
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