Skyflyer - Appropriate for 1st BM Suit?

[murrays 0]

I am lurking the classifieds hard for a used BM suit. Would a Skyflyer (original model) be appropriate or a first suit?

I have 2200 jumps...and 1 PantZ dive The chances of me getting somewhere to get instruction from a BM instructor are pretty low. However, 2 of the guys in our club are anxiously awaiting their GTIs and have had instruction...and would be able to help me out. They both have 600-800 jumps.

Thanks for any suggestions/opinions...

--
Murray

"No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey

[vesatoro 0]

I think that the Skyflyer might be fine for you for the first own suit. But not for the first flights. The Skyflyer is not recommended as a 1st flight suit at all as it's quite twitchy (like a Stiletto as a 1st canopy...) and a 1st timer most propably will not feel comfortable flying with it. So I'd recommend taking the few first flights with a Classic. If Classics are not available for you, then as you are quite an experienced jumper, a Gti might do the job. The other problem with going for Skyflyer too fast, is that it is much harder to train the efficient flying position with a suit aimed for experienced flyer than on one that is designed for beginners. In my opinion, after you feel you are fully comfortable with a Classic/Gti in all flight manouvers, should you change to a Skyflyer/S.3.

Vesa
BMCI

"Fear is the path to the Dark side"
(Master Yoda)

[obi 0]

I started WS-flying this summer. I directly bought a S3 and made my first-ever suit-jumps on it. I am totally happy with the suit and happy that I didn't take a less performing one. I recently started base-flying it and again, I am totally happy with the performance the suit delivers.
I think it really comes down to one's overall flying skills. Like you, I have about 2500 jumps. I do freeflying, rw, tandems, camera, base and even throw tricks off cliffs. With that experience under my belt, jumping the S3 was not a problem. BUT: it is a serious suit. You have to learn how to fly it if you're looking for maximum performance. Since I have it, 99 % of my funjumps have been with the suit.
Which is not a problem neither because I totally fell in love with it and flying my suit is all I wanna do
P.S. I didn't have anybody that could tell me how to fly that thingy neither. I really would have wanted to learn from somebody, but there's just nobody around here...

P.P.S. I was told that the S3 is easier to fly than the original Skyflyer. While I don't know if that is true, you might wanna consider buying a new S3 instead of a used Skyflyer

P.P.P.S. While this worked for me, somebody with less experience or someone who is not so much looking for maximum performance might be happier with a Classic or GTi. When I started to do tricks with the suit, it put my into a spin twice. No annoucement, no signal, just BANG. Full on rotations. Very impressive...

[LouDiamond 1]

I have to say no for the plain fact that the skyflyer is very hard to fly correctly if you've never flown a suit before. It has a very narrow leg stance which makes it very twitchy and some what unsettling until you find the right position. Some people have gone with the skyflyer from the first jump but all will tell you it was a bit hairy at first. It's best to learn on something more foregiving and easier to fly right out the door. Any of the suits from the classic , GTI and the new Skyflyer 3 would be a better choice for a first flight(with your # of jumps) since they have large leg and arm wings. Once you are comfortable with flying and know a little bit about how the suit flys a skyflyer wouldn't be a bad choice. I say use your friends GTI's as much as possible to get accustomed to the suit before thinking of putting a original skyflyer on. It will be more fun and better in the long run.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[murrays 0]

Thanks for the advice guys. I think I'll just stay in the weeds and wait for a GTI or even an S3 to come along. In the meantime I hope to make a few jumps with my buddies' GTIs.

Much appreciated

--
Murray

"No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey

[ernokaikkonen 0]

So... going on on the subject. I'm going to get my first own wingsuit in the near future, after having bummed off 17 flights on other people's suits. All my flights have been on Classics/ClassicIIs, and I feel comfortable flying them. I'm not going to get a ClassicII, it's a choice between a Gti and a Skyflyer.(edited to add: now that I think about it, is the performance difference between the ClassicII and the Gti worth the extra 100USD?)

The main question I have is: Just how twitchy is the Skyflyer on deployment? I recently downsized to a 135 Hurricane loaded at 1.35(from a square canopy loaded at 1.26). Am I just begging for some spinning linetwists if I choose the Skyflyer?

[The111 1]

Somewhat off-topic...

I realize that "better" is probably a horrible word to use in a question like this (i.e. is a Spectre better than a Sabre?!?!)... but anyway... I was under the impression that the S3 was "better" (more advanced, higher performance envelope) than the SF... so I found it weird that someone just said that the original SF is the hardest one to fly. I guess it's because of the legs being so narrow?

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[kevin922 0]

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So... going on on the subject. I'm going to get my first own wingsuit in the near future, after having bummed off 17 flights on other people's suits. All my flights have been on Classics/ClassicIIs, and I feel comfortable flying them. I'm not going to get a ClassicII, it's a choice between a Gti and a Skyflyer.(edited to add: now that I think about it, is the performance difference between the ClassicII and the Gti worth the extra 100USD?)

The main question I have is: Just how twitchy is the Skyflyer on deployment? I recently downsized to a 135 Hurricane loaded at 1.35(from a square canopy loaded at 1.26). Am I just begging for some spinning linetwists if I choose the Skyflyer?

A skyflyer or skyflyer 3? A skyflyer 3 isn't that twitchy, but there is more to deal with and pull time is more critical in a s3 as there is more fabric. Classics and GTIs are much more forgiving with body position, etc. S3 you have a wing which will cover your BOC. I'd recommend doing more jumps, if you can borrow a gti that would be good. I've read (but havent seen) of people doing their first jump on a s3 not sure I really recommend that though. As jari told me when I was jumping a s4 prototype suit, "don't get yourself killed" :-)

[kevin922 0]

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Somewhat off-topic...

I realize that "better" is probably a horrible word to use in a question like this (i.e. is a Spectre better than a Sabre?!?!)... but anyway... I was under the impression that the S3 was "better" (more advanced, higher performance envelope) than the SF... so I found it weird that someone just said that the original SF is the hardest one to fly. I guess it's because of the legs being so narrow?

Yes the Skyflyer "1" has a smaller leg stance making it a little less stable and "harder" to fly. The S3 is "harder" in a different way as the wings are larger and provide more force against your arms when you are maxing it out making it "hard" as well but not from a stability standpoint.

[kimgriffin 0]

"is the performance difference between the ClassicII and the Gti worth the extra 100USD?"

Yes, the GTi definitely has a more surface area on both the arm and leg wings. It is a noticably, but not radically, better performing suit than the ClassicII. I'd say it is definitely worth the extra money if you want a suit with more float and forward drive.

"Just how twitchy is the Skyflyer on deployment?"
The Skyflyer is not twitchy on deployment but the pilot could easily cause it to be because both the Skyflyer and S3 are very senstive to input. This sensitivity is due mostly to the fact that the suits have a lot of forward speed. The faster you go the more senstive the suit is to input. I don't have problems with my S3 being twichy on the pull because I slow down her forward speed by arching when I start my wave off. By the time I pull I've decreased my foward speed enough that the suit feels quite stable. Arching is really the key here. It's like driving a very fast motercycle. If you're doing 100 mph and go to make a quick turn, you are more likely to lose stablity than if you slowed down to 50 to make the turn.

What others have said above about the Skyflyer being more twitchy than the S3 is true. They're both fast fwd suits but the Skyflyer's narrower leg stance does not feel as stable as the S3's. I would never recommend either of these suits for the first flights. I;ve seen a couple people do their first flights on the Skyflyer and it was intimidating at best (these guys had thousands of jumps.) I've seen some people who do a handful of GTi jumps then order a S3 straight away and do just fine. There are also people out there who have WS experience, thousands of jumps and just do not want the extra caution needed for the Skyflyer/S3 so they chose the GTi.

If you are worried about your openings, remember to arch at pull time, keep a straight heading, throw symetrically, have your bag packed either bridle up or towards your feet, make sure your bag will not stick in your container, make sure your kill-line pilot chute is is good condition and that your bridle is long enough to clear your burble. These are what most commonly cause line twists.

OH yeah... and pack your own gear if you are concerned about line twists (unless you're a sucky packer). Seems when ever I get a packer I don't know they somehow get my Sabre2 97 with WS corners and long bridle to get in to a line twist or two - not an easy thing to do.

Hope I didn't ramble on too much. I have that problem sometimes.

~Kim Griffin
BMI/E

-Kimberly Griffin

[LouDiamond 1]

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Just how twitchy is the Skyflyer on deployment?

It's not the deployment that can make it sketchy, it's the flight itself. The leg stance is significantly narrower on the original skyflyer than any of the other suits and that can make it tricky to fly right,especially if your not used to flying a suit. Just take a look at my icon to see how far apart my legs are and thats not a distorted view, thats how far apart your feet are. Having flown all the suits from an original classic up to the S3, I can honestly say that the original skyflyer is the hardest to dial in. Going from the GTI to the skyflyer it took several jumps before I felt comfortable in the suit and found out the new body position needed to fly it.

I just don't think it's fair to short change yourself by putting yourself in a suit thats significantly harder to fly on your first flight. It will only leave you with a bad taste in your mouth. Get as many flights on a Classic or GTI as you can before putting a original skyflyer on. You have plenty of jumps behind you so you should pick up flying fairly quickly and get used to the suit and then move on to the original skyflyer. Besides, what are friends for but to lend you their suits and help spread the disease?


ARE YOU DOWN WITH THE SICKNESS?

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[bbarnhouse 0]

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Hope I didn't ramble on too much. I have that problem sometimes.

Kimi...you don't ramble and all of your input is greatly appreciated here. How else to learn but by the master BirdWoman herself?
Thank you for educating all of us.
Cheers!
BB

[VectorBoy 0]

Don't think that a classic is a non-performing suit either. This last weekend we got two lads in our old classics and they really worked us in our S3 s. Its all about the pilot. If a person is smooth gracefull they will not fall out of the sky during manuevers. If they have the right body type its a plus also. We know guys with 500 wing suit jumps and experience with all of the various suits that still plummet to earth for whatever reason.
My buddy has 400 WS jumps, 200 on his classic, 200 on his S3. He does not plummet and can lay a good base and fly like a bird. This last weekend we loaned our suits ( classics and not a perfect body fit to the two loanees ) and they rocked the skies, now these boys had the perfect body type and I carry a bit of drag. BUT we had a SOLID 4 way and us the guys with a bit more experience got a challenge too.
But come deployment the classics were plenty to manage for the new guys. The S3s would have given them some un-needed pucker factor.
You could say the classics allowed these lads to really fly to the best of their natural abilities without harshing their enjoyment of it and really build their skill and confidence.

[kevin922 0]

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Don't think that a classic is a non-performing suit either. This last weekend we got two lads in our old classics and they really worked us in our S3 s. Its all about the pilot. If a person is smooth gracefull they will not fall out of the sky during manuevers. If they have the right body type its a plus also. We know guys with 500 wing suit jumps and experience with all of the various suits that still plummet to earth for whatever reason.
My buddy has 400 WS jumps, 200 on his classic, 200 on his S3. He does not plummet and can lay a good base and fly like a bird. This last weekend we loaned our suits ( classics and not a perfect body fit to the two loanees ) and they rocked the skies, now these boys had the perfect body type and I carry a bit of drag. BUT we had a SOLID 4 way and us the guys with a bit more experience got a challenge too.
But come deployment the classics were plenty to manage for the new guys. The S3s would have given them some un-needed pucker factor.
You could say the classics allowed these lads to really fly to the best of their natural abilities without harshing their enjoyment of it and really build their skill and confidence.

400 ws?? how long has he been flying W/S?

[kimgriffin 0]

Okay, I guess I have more to say...

Murray, as I said above, the Skyflyer and S3 are not ideal suits for your first flights, even with your high jump number. They are both very sensitive to user input and when you are leanring you will not always handle the suit smoothly. I have seen the Skyflyer (not the S3) in action in a knarly, uncontrollable flat spin with an experienced WS jumper and it wasn't pretty. (He eventually used the "balling up" technique and got out of it and is alive and well.)

But, if you find a killer deal and/or you know you will want the S3 soon anyway, then if I were you I would go for it. (Because you do have so many jumps.) BUUUUTTTTT, I would not even consider flying the suit until I had instruction from someone very experienced in flying the Skyflyer/S3. The BM manual (which was written by BM owner, Jari, and later updated by me) was written for for Classic or GTi flight techniques and not for the advanced suits. Don't get me wrong, the manual will do you plenty of good but I would strongly advise that you get some instruction from someone who is familiar with the Skyflyer/S3. There are some special safety in flying this suit.

Likely, if you read the manaul and used your common sense then your first flights will be uneventful, although you will be suprized at the suit's power. But, murphy's law is why is why I would say you should seek such instruction.

If you buy a Skyflyer or S3 as your first suit, then as an experience Skflyer flyer (that sounds pretty funny) and a decent human being I would be happy to tell you what to be cautious of and how to best fly the suit. (A side note: I worked for BM for over 2 years and have been on the Skyflyer and now the S3 for 2 years. I have been fortunate to learn from Jari, who is the world's most experienced (and best) fllyer.) There are many excellent Skyflyer flyers on this site give you good info. (SkyMonkey1, Lou Diamond, Veso, Yuri and I'm sure there are others.).

If you chose the Skyflyer to start with, please PM me, I'll be happy to tell you what I know.

Many of us are not for novice flyers going for the Skyflyer/S3 right away. But, I have learned that you can not stop people from doing what they really want to do. I'd rather, then, have those people informed with all the info possible.

I'll be honest to say that I did about 30 jumps on the ClassicI and went straight to the Skyflyer. I did not like the suit at all at first. I went low on big formations (and I'm pretty small) and I did not love how sensitive it was at pull time. But about 10 jumps later I was loving it.

Both the Skyflyer and S3 take a non-egotistical attitude towards learning. If you do chose this suit as your first suit (which is not ideal, nor recommended) you MUST be very aware of your surroundings and be very in to learing how to fly the suit (most important for safety reasons, second for performance reasons.)

Please don't hesitate to ask questions.

Best of luck in finding a suit! A whole new world is at your finger tips.

~Kim Griffin
BMI/E, AFF, SL, SDU, blah blah blah

-Kimberly Griffin

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

I would add that I really don't think the larger suit is a very smart vanity purchase. If you are going to fly your suit a LOT, then you will eventually figure out how to fly it well, but if you only make the rare wingsuit flight I believe you will end up disappointed. Like Kim said, I didn't really like my original SkyFlyer when I first started flying it, but I just had to have one. I was ruling the sky in my GTi, but was quite sketchy for some time in the SkyFlyer; it was disheartening to say the least. Eventually, I got the suit wired, but still preferred the GTi for instructional dives because it has better "pop" at the slower airspeeds you get caught at when flying with young birdies. You really need speed to get the additional lift possible with the SkyFlyer, so flying dirty, especially when you don't have a lot of experience on the suit, will leave you possibly regretting your decision as people in Classics and GTi's sail up and away from you. Currency is very important on the larger suits. That said, the SkyFlyer 3, even though it's even bigger, gives a better sense of "comfort" than my old SkyFlyer. Once again though: if you suck in a SkyFlyer 3, people in GTi's are going to smoke your ass in the sky. If you are going to spend the requisite amount of time in the suit to get your finesse down, then I would say you would probably want to snatch up a good deal if you find one. If you are are not planning on spending that time, then you would be MUCH better off with a GTi or something. Like myself and others here have said: you can still absolutely rule the sky in a GTi or even a Classic II.

Chuck Blue

[VectorBoy 0]

400 ws?? how long has he been flying W/S?

[murrays 0]

Kim, Chuck, everybody else....

Thank-you so much for your advice and concerns...I'm very lucky to get advice from such experienced people and it is much appreciated.

As I am unable to make a lot of skydives these days, I will look for a GTI or maybe a Classic. I'd likely do quite well with a Classic as I am 5'11", 165 and have always been told I track really well. But I think it would be nice to have a GTI like the other two guys on the dz are getting...and I would likely get a better bang for the buck with a GTI in terms of having something to challenge me for a long time.

Thanks again for all your help!

--
Murray

"No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey

[GroundZero 0]

geez...

i dunno... ask Tallguy...

Chris

[GroundZero 0]

his first jump on a skyflyer was nice.....then....

[LouDiamond 1]

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geez...

i dunno... ask Tallguy...

Chris

That's not the norm and neither is he. Besides it was a skyflyer 3 and with all things said I think everything worked out to be porportional to his size. But that is still the biggest MFer I've ever seen tearing accross the sky like that. I wanna see what he looks like in HIS suit when he gets it because there will be a nylon shortage that day for sure

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[GroundZero 0]

ain't that the truth!

[kimgriffin 0]

Yeah.... I would have loved to see Tall Guy in the air! Think I may need rocket boosters to get my 5'4" frame to keep fwd with him (isn't he like 6'7"?!)

Can't believe BM had a demo to fit him (S3 or not). It must have been meant to be and he could have never learned to fly if it wasn't for that suit. So happy it worked out for him. Sure it was a different experience than the people at Rantoul who did their first jump on a Classic.

SkyMonkeyOne would know from his days serving Uncle Sam that you can teach most people do to just about anything, especially if the person is really willing to learn.

~K

-Kimberly Griffin

[leroydb 0]

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SkyMonkeyOne would know from his days serving Uncle Sam that you can teach most people do to just about anything, especially if the person is really willing to learn.

especially if he taught me

Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

[LouDiamond 1]

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(isn't he like 6'7"?!)

Can't believe BM had a demo to fit him (S3 or not).

Actually, I think he is 6'9" or taller. The demo he used was actually the suit made for Vladi that was way too big for him. Tall guy had to fly it with out the booties on cause it was still too small for him. Even without the booties Tall guy was tearing up the sky. I watched as my student pulled and caught this large YELLOW object in my periphial vison below me. I looked down and saw the largest birdman suit in history screaming accross the sky. it was a sight to see for sure

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING