Going to a dz not yet hip to BM

[Vallerina 2]

Okay, so I just took my first flight on a wingsuit this past weekend, and now I am obsessed! I plan on ordering my suit soon, and that means I'll be taking it to dzs which have never even seen one before!

So, my question is what do I, a person who is new to the wingsuit world and ignorant of "pilot talk", tell a non-skydiving pilot who has never even seen a BM suit before to ensure the safety of both of us? How far should he keep flying straight for? Etc etc etc....

Sorry for the dumb question!

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[Deuce 1]

That's a great question, Vallerina.

All my jumps so far have been with another Birdman, and he took care of making sure the pilot knew we were on board.

I think most DZ's go through pilots pretty quick. I am also curious what is the briefing is for a pilot dropping birdmen.

[LouDiamond 1]

Vallerina, I wrote an article covering the type of scenario you described and then some. It should be published some time soon, knock on wood. However , that doesn't help you right now Since I'm not at my computer I can't hook a Sist'a up at the moment. Gimme to later on today and I'll have a little sump thin sump thin fo ya

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[PhreeZone 20]

Good Question!

I've always told the pilots which direction I'm turning on exit. I'll step and turn right way usually. I've got two pilots that are getting used to it and are flying along side me now in the exit. Its way cool to be able to see the Copilot in the CASA in flight

I do make sure the pilots know not to go over the DZ again till about 4000 feet or when they see I'm open again.

I'm taking my suit to another DZ in a few weeks so I'll have to get the run down on how this DZ operates wingsuits and see if I have to brief the pilot.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[pyke 0]

Well - I won't suggest to even be able to cover what LouDiamond will probably have in his article, but I'm a newbie too - and came back to a dz where I was the only "active" BM'er.

I've gone as far as 2 miles past EXIT and still made it back with plenty of time. In a tail wind - I've been told 5 miles is no problem, but haven't tried it. I have also exited directly after the last tandem and done large S turns over the dz. Gives tandem passengers good visuals under canopy!!

The key is not where you get out, so much, as communicating with your pilots, IMHO! Making sure they don't fly over/on/through you is most IMPORTANT!!

Kahurangi e Mahearangi,
Kiwi, RB #926, AFF-I, FAA Snr. Rigger, RN/BSN/Paramedic

[billvon 3,009]

>So, my question is what do I, a person who is new to the wingsuit
> world and ignorant of "pilot talk", tell a non-skydiving pilot who has
> never even seen a BM suit before to ensure the safety of both of
> us?

Tell him what direction you will be turning. Tell him that it's possible that you will be descending at the same rate as the aircraft, so coordination is important. During the jump make sure you exit, fly and open on the side that you told him you would.

>How far should he keep flying straight for? Etc etc etc....

Shouldn't matter too much; as long as he goes right and you go left (or he goes north and you go south or whatever.) I've had pilots who go into a steep dive the instant I'm out, and had pilots who continue along for 10-15 seconds to "give me space." (I've even had pilots who buzzed me, but that's a different story.)

[AndyMan 7]

Which DZ are you thinking? There's an active flock at hinckley now.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[kimgriffin 0]

I agree with what people are saying here. Communication with the pilot is essential.

But, unfortunately, some pilots could give a shit what you are going to do when you get out of the plane. They should when WSs are concerned but most are ignorant of the performance the suit has.

I have told a pilot at my home DZ in DeLand that I was doing a WS jump and he said "I don't care." He won't change his decent for anyone. There are plenty of other pilots out there who don't care or just don't understand what we can do in a wingsuit.

So, you should speak to the DZO or manager at the DZ and ask them what they think would be best. Explain how you would like to fly your pattern. Hopefully he relays info to the pilot. But, in the plane, tell the pilot that you will fly a left or right hand box pattern. In the plane you will have to leave how he will fly the plane up to him. Pilots can't discuss too much while on jump run.

#1, You watch the plane when you're out flying. You have eyes and can change your heading at anytime. You should always do your best to be aware of what is around you in the sky. Even if you tell the DZO and the pilot of your pattern the pilot might forget, not care, or have to change his course for reasons you don't know, etc. So, depend on yourself only.

So far Perris Valley has been the most cooperative DZ in regards to WS safety and pilot communication that I have ever encountered. They are all about learning from the experienced WS flyers how to keep the planes and wingsuits far from eachother. But, then again, that was after the WS plane strike a year or 2 ago.

I'm sure if you talk to the DZO, manager and or pilot at this DZ everything will be fine. It's so great that you are taking the responsibility by the horns rather than just be complacent!!

Happy flights!!!

~Kim Griffin
BMI/E

-Kimberly Griffin

[LouDiamond 1]

Sorry gang, the file is too big to post here. It will be posted on the Birdman web site shortly.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[VectorBoy 0]

Be sure and make a head count of all of the tandems and AFF students on your load. Most of the regular fallers will be landing by the time you deploy, assuming you go out last which is recommended, but the tandems and students pull higher and loiter. These guys can be hard to spot at the speeds you are traveling until you get close. And this all is truelly important if you plan on any kind of pre approved "buzzing" later when you get more experience.

[Vallerina 2]

Okay, just let me know when it gets published and what it's being published in! I won't be heading to any dzs that haven't seen bm until next March (Feb at the earliest), so I don't need to know right now or anything.

Thanks for the advice! Also, thanks for the reminder about clueing in the DZO as well, Kim.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[ManBird 0]

I usually ask the pilot which way s/he is descending at about 4K before exit, then go the opposite way. Sometimes the direction of the descent must change due to traffic. Sometimes you get a pilot that always goes the same way, and sometimes the pilot will ask, "which way do you want me to descend" (my favorite response).

Even with that communication, still keep an eye on the plane. Twice I've had pilots go the opposite direction that they said they would (ie, the same direction as me). On one, I came within fifteen feet of the plane, and that got me to really weatch what the plane does from then on. On the other, the pilot did it on purpose, and it turned into a two way for about forty-five seconds. :)

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[ManBird 0]

Quote

Be sure and make a head count of all of the tandems and AFF students on your load. Most of the regular fallers will be landing by the time you deploy, assuming you go out last which is recommended, but the tandems and students pull higher and loiter. These guys can be hard to spot at the speeds you are traveling until you get close. And this all is truelly important if you plan on any kind of pre approved "buzzing" later when you get more experience.

Excellent point. Get to know the tandem rigs if you plan to do any buzzing (most DZs number their rigs). Know the color(s) of the canopy of the last tandem out. It will help you indentify the buzzee, as well as assist you in locating the other tandems to avoid collision. And yes, always have your buzzes pre-approved, or your DZ might get a new policy.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[greybeard 0]

Agreeing 100% with Kim that it's great for you Val to be activley checking out the situation with the pilot and the dz mgr. "wait and see what happens" attitudes can turn into wait and watch something terrible.

Kim, tell me more about the plane stike you mention.

[kimgriffin 0]

It happend at Perris Valley a couple years ago. A guy forgot to tell the pilot that he was doing a WS jump. Murphy's law, he did many WS jumps that day and informed the pilot on all except the last one of the day where he hit the plane.

He exited the otter and began to bank and dive 90 degrees to the left. The plane took the same pattern, flew under him, the jumper actually hit the RIGHT side of the otter. He brushed against the strut and wheel, knocking him loopy, I think it may have deployed his main or something happened to it, he was pretty dazed but pulled his reserve. He can not recall much of the accident or how he even landed safely.

One side of his suit had tire marks all over it and his wings got pretty ripped up. The suit and otter were both repaired. The otter cost a bit more to fix than the WS.

This accident was a great learning tool though, so probably good it happened.

Vectorboy, if I got any of this story wrong... please correct me. It's been a while since I spoke to the WS jumper above about this.

Now (understandably) Perris has very strict rules about where WSs can fly. I don't necessarily agree 100% but the rules are much better than a DZ not caring or not even being aware that they should take measures to keep aircraft and WS flyers away from one another.

Vallerina: I love the pic of you in the purple demo suit!

~Kim

-Kimberly Griffin

[greybeard 0]

wow! Sure gives creedence to the practice of staying with line of fligh until you see the plane start its desent and turn, regardless of the prearrange plans.


thanks for that story, Kim.




.

[Vallerina 2]

Quote

Vallerina: I love the pic of you in the purple demo suit!

Thanks! I can't wait to get one of my own and put a picture of that up there!
I'm really looking forward to flying one again, and I'll admit that it does make me nervous. It seems like it takes a different kind of "air awareness" with having to worry about tandems, a plane, and whoever you're jumping with. And then there's all the other stuff with your own gear that you have to worry about (although, I am thankful that I have a Spectre loaded at 1.1!)

Thank you very much for all of your replies! I'm just warning you all right now, I have many many newbie questions!

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[kimgriffin 0]

Understandlable to be a little nervous of the new awareness when flying a WS. But, it will come so easily the more you jump. A big key is to just look around and look down and that is not so hard.

I think WS flying safer than freeflying in many ways. I know so many freeflyers now who have popped their AADs going low, have had serious in-air collisions or their gear could not stand the fast speeds. A very nice freefly guy in DeLand is not parazlized because someone hit him in freefall.

I guess each part of our sport has their own safety issues to watch out for.

Good luck on getting your own suit, Vallerina!

~Kim

-Kimberly Griffin

[VectorBoy 0]

Vectorboy, if I got any of this story wrong... please correct me. It's been a while since I spoke to the WS jumper above about this.



~Kim

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

Okay, just let me know when it gets published and what it's being published in!

OK, it should/might get published in Parachutist. I am still waiting to hear something from them. Regardless, I was at Birdman the other day and Jari said he would post it to the Birdman site. For all I know it might be up there right now.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[PhreeZone 20]

Just an aside... if its published in anyway, shape, or form out side of Parachutist, they will not touch the article.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

Just an aside... if its published in anyway, shape, or form out side of Parachutist, they will not touch the article.

Right, which is one of the reasons why I haven't had it posted or sent it to anybody yet. When I get home I'll have to look into finding out what the status on it is.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING