TomAiello 26
maretus 0
It could be any of those suggested above in this thread but why do we need to compete in this discipline ? Take freeflying for example, IMO all those speed rounds and other shit they are putting there are really just limiting peoples imagination and limiting the discovery of new creative ways of flying. That's one of the main reason I enjoy wingsuits 'cause there are no rules to say how you should fly, I can fly just the way I want to. If there would be a wingsuit competition, I hardly noubt that i would take place in that. For me there just is not a competitonal element in WS flight, it's just pure flight and freedom with your best buddies. Why to ruin it with competition ?
http://www.ufufreefly.com
vesatoro 0
Do birds compete in flying? No, they live it.
Vesa
"Fear is the path to the Dark side"
(Master Yoda)
Vesa
"Fear is the path to the Dark side"
(Master Yoda)
Yo! I'm a new kid on the block (this forum that is). I've got a few ideas on b/m competition. For individual how about longest flite, longest flite time.
For team i think it would be cool to fly a formation like the Blue Angels with a 4 way Diamond with smoke R/W/B and end it wit a star burst. This would be kick ass awesome. The Knights need to add this to their show.
While I got ya are there any wingsuit people that would like to have an East Coast get together. I'm located in NC and willing to travel for some formation flying. Just for your info I was a part of the 27 way done at the Herc Boggie last year. Abig flock is cool.
Parasweep
For team i think it would be cool to fly a formation like the Blue Angels with a 4 way Diamond with smoke R/W/B and end it wit a star burst. This would be kick ass awesome. The Knights need to add this to their show.
While I got ya are there any wingsuit people that would like to have an East Coast get together. I'm located in NC and willing to travel for some formation flying. Just for your info I was a part of the 27 way done at the Herc Boggie last year. Abig flock is cool.
Parasweep
If you ain't tried it , don't knock it.
QuoteWhile I got ya are there any wingsuit people that would like to have an East Coast get together.
Come on down to Raeford, NC. We have a very substantial flock on the DZ and we are always flying. We are not sucking at Raeford
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING
There are a LOT of people at Raeford who fly wingsuits. We generally have BirdMen on every load.
Chuck
Chuck
blair700 0
YO!
We have a couple of birds at Skydive Carolina, just south of Charlotte, NC, and the flock is growing. We are having 2 CASAs this weekend, with O2, so we can flock from 16K, why don't you head down and teach us young birds a thing or 2???
Blair
We have a couple of birds at Skydive Carolina, just south of Charlotte, NC, and the flock is growing. We are having 2 CASAs this weekend, with O2, so we can flock from 16K, why don't you head down and teach us young birds a thing or 2???
Blair
Tonto 1
Hi Chuck
Within PASA, which governs the sport of Skydiving in South Africa, there is the "Sports skydiving accociation."
This is divided into the different competition disiplines such as Formation Skydiving, Canopy Formation etc. The category "Artistic Events" covers Freestyle, freeflying, skysurfing and... Wingsuits.
Now... since there is no competition format - I want Wingsuits out from under their control. I don't like all the rules they're making for something they don't do.
If Wingsuits do begin to compete (and they will..) then I can see the need to have them controlled. Until then? Lets be free - as a Bird!
Within PASA, which governs the sport of Skydiving in South Africa, there is the "Sports skydiving accociation."
This is divided into the different competition disiplines such as Formation Skydiving, Canopy Formation etc. The category "Artistic Events" covers Freestyle, freeflying, skysurfing and... Wingsuits.
Now... since there is no competition format - I want Wingsuits out from under their control. I don't like all the rules they're making for something they don't do.
If Wingsuits do begin to compete (and they will..) then I can see the need to have them controlled. Until then? Lets be free - as a Bird!
It's the year of the Pig.
Tonto, do you realize that you responded to a three-year-old post? Since you brought it up though, here is what I envision, at least for those who give a shit about competing eventually:
-distance covered, just like the Lodi tracking event
-longest time airborne before deployment, just like they did in Russia
-two-way cumpulsory and open flights with a video guy, judged artistically
Beyond that, I am sure we will travel down the same road currently being travelled by the "top" freeflyers and formation RW guys (read: exclusionary "invitationals" and bigway attempts). This has already started actually.
Chuck
-distance covered, just like the Lodi tracking event
-longest time airborne before deployment, just like they did in Russia
-two-way cumpulsory and open flights with a video guy, judged artistically
Beyond that, I am sure we will travel down the same road currently being travelled by the "top" freeflyers and formation RW guys (read: exclusionary "invitationals" and bigway attempts). This has already started actually.
Chuck
Tonto 1
I realise it. I'm a good boy. I use the "search" feature, rather than start a new thread.
Since we as BMI's in SA don't have access to a demo fleet, my plan is to seperate Wingsuits from the competition formats. This will allow a % of funds from sports skydiving association members to be utilised for development, as opposed to my wingsuit money helping subsidise some skysurfers training in spain. That cash will go directly into buying probably 2 or 3 demo suits. Taya and I would then still need to pay our own way to get to DZ's in South Africa that have NO access to BMI's, Wingsuits or even an experienced Wingsuit pilot.
I'm quite serious about spreading this thing around down here. I'll let you know how it goes.
t
It's the year of the Pig.
Taz 0
Quote-distance covered, just like the Lodi tracking event
-longest time airborne before deployment, just like they did in Russia
-two-way cumpulsory and open flights with a video guy, judged artistically
All that is good, but the problems in South Africa are as much about regulating the way people learn and progress as how they compete. For example, there is not ONE person in South Africa who has achieved a D-license in freeflying (licenses are discipline-specific) because the hoops you have to jump through are completely impossible (completing 5-point 5-way head down dives and circuits on an "indi-500" from an average of 10,000ft.).
Wingsuiting has a chance to avoid those pitfalls if we get involved early. As of right now, we are just starting to work on revising the rules so that new birds don't have to do an uninterrupted 15-jump training program with an instructor in order to be "cleared" to fly their wingsuit without permission. It is ridiculous in my opinion and I really hope we can make some changes to keep it fun and accessible.
Otherwise, we will see in a few years that the PASA (Parachute Association of South Africa) D-license requirements for flying a wingsuit will be to fly for 4 minutes and cover a distance of 120 miles while turning points with three other people. You'll probably be hearing from us some more on this.
As for competition, I have no problem with the tracking model or the artistic stuff. As long as people who want to compete can do so and the rest don't have to. It's also a D-license requirement here to compete at Nationals, so in the long run we may need to have some criteria like the ones you are talking about.
It's the Year of the Dragon.
I would say it was about a year ago or so, I'd have to check my home computer, that I was contacted by a individual associated with PASA that was also a birdman. We discussed what the requirements should be for SA standards based on his knowledge of how things operate there. I noticed some of the crazy requirements that you mentioned.
With his assitance, I made suggestions as to what requirements should be the minimum and what kinds of standards needed to be achieved. I have the actual final copy of the SA Birdman requirements some where, I'll look for them later on. I eliminated a lot of the red tape requirements that seem to plague your progression scales and kept it straight forward and to the point. I am not sure if they have been implimented yet or not in your version of the SIMs/BSRs.
With his assitance, I made suggestions as to what requirements should be the minimum and what kinds of standards needed to be achieved. I have the actual final copy of the SA Birdman requirements some where, I'll look for them later on. I eliminated a lot of the red tape requirements that seem to plague your progression scales and kept it straight forward and to the point. I am not sure if they have been implimented yet or not in your version of the SIMs/BSRs.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING
Taz 0
I tend to get quite heated on this topic, but I suppose I should be more understanding and perhaps understated. I am attaching my copy of the current wingsuit part of the PASA MOPs (Manual of Procedures), FYI. We are going to revise them. In South Africa there is a 300-jump minimum requirement before being able to do the FFC. Those with over 500 jumps can do it on their own. We have an open-minded head of National Safety and Training who agrees in principle that several basic changes should be made. Hopefully, in breaking wingsuiting out and into its own "committee" and discipline, we will not only be able to bring requirements somewhat into line with the rest of the world, but also get a small budget for demo suits and events at other dropzones around SA.
For more discussion on this we should probably start another thread, since I'm thinking I've hijacked the whole "competition brainstorming" discussion
Sorry!
For more discussion on this we should probably start another thread, since I'm thinking I've hijacked the whole "competition brainstorming" discussion
Sorry!It's the Year of the Dragon.
Tonto 1
Hi Scott.
I have no problem with the way we're required to teach the FFC. Looks like that section of our MOP's have been copied almost completely from the Birdman Flight Manual.
The minimum requirements to jump a wingsuit here are 500 jumps.
It's possible to get people on the FFC with 300 - 500 jumps with a waiver from National Safety and Training, and this has never been refused thus far if I've motivated it properly.
As it stands, these are the current requirements - and in my opinion, they are draconian.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Suggested progression for those with more than 500 freefalls
2 solo jumps performing basic drills, stable flight, heading control and fall rate control
1 solo jump performing spiral turns in both directions
1 solo jump performing barrel rolls in both directions
1 solo jump performing backloops
1 solo jump performing front loops
1 solo jump performing back flight
3 jumps with no more than one other experienced wing suiter approved by the CI based on their experience.
Experienced wing suiter should supervise kitting up through to exit.
Must wing suit jump to the exclusion of all other kinds of jumping till the progression is complete.
If no wing suit jump is done for 2 weeks, further solo drill dives are required.
After demonstrating to the satisfaction of the CI that they're competent to jump unsupervised, they're signed off in their logbook "Cleared to jump wing suits under PASA MOP's"
Course for jumpers with 300 to 500 freefalls
3 jumps with the instructor, performing basic drills and stable flight (This is the normal BM 1sr Flight, with pattern, practice touches etc)
1 solo jump performing spiral turns
1 solo jump performing barrel rolls
1 solo jump performing backloops
1 solo jump performing front loops
1 solo jump performing back flight
7 jumps with no more than one other experienced wing suiter approved by the Wing suit instructor based on their experience.
The student is not to jump unless the instructor is on the DZ or in the aircraft with the student.
The instructor will give full Wingsuit school, and brief and debrief each jump.
Instructor will supervise kit up, in aircraft, pre exit checks and flight plan.
The instructor, or experienced wing suiter nominated by the instructor will supervise pre exit checks and flight plan on solo and formation jumps.
Must wing suit jump to the exclusion of all other kinds of jumping till the progression is complete.
If no wing suit jump is done for 2 weeks, further solo drill dives are required.
----------------------------------------------------------
Now with +- 20 DZ's in the country, all but 2 operating Cessnas, and most with NO knowledge of wingsuits - these MOP's have tried to cater for everyone, on all manner of suits.
I'll be editing them shortly, trying to focus more on the flocking aspects in the early stages if competent wing suit pilots are available. I find I learn a lot on solo's now - but back then? Seeing how my changes in body position affected my flight relative to others really helped my learning curve.
t
I have no problem with the way we're required to teach the FFC. Looks like that section of our MOP's have been copied almost completely from the Birdman Flight Manual.
The minimum requirements to jump a wingsuit here are 500 jumps.
It's possible to get people on the FFC with 300 - 500 jumps with a waiver from National Safety and Training, and this has never been refused thus far if I've motivated it properly.
As it stands, these are the current requirements - and in my opinion, they are draconian.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Suggested progression for those with more than 500 freefalls
2 solo jumps performing basic drills, stable flight, heading control and fall rate control
1 solo jump performing spiral turns in both directions
1 solo jump performing barrel rolls in both directions
1 solo jump performing backloops
1 solo jump performing front loops
1 solo jump performing back flight
3 jumps with no more than one other experienced wing suiter approved by the CI based on their experience.
Experienced wing suiter should supervise kitting up through to exit.
Must wing suit jump to the exclusion of all other kinds of jumping till the progression is complete.
If no wing suit jump is done for 2 weeks, further solo drill dives are required.
After demonstrating to the satisfaction of the CI that they're competent to jump unsupervised, they're signed off in their logbook "Cleared to jump wing suits under PASA MOP's"
Course for jumpers with 300 to 500 freefalls
3 jumps with the instructor, performing basic drills and stable flight (This is the normal BM 1sr Flight, with pattern, practice touches etc)
1 solo jump performing spiral turns
1 solo jump performing barrel rolls
1 solo jump performing backloops
1 solo jump performing front loops
1 solo jump performing back flight
7 jumps with no more than one other experienced wing suiter approved by the Wing suit instructor based on their experience.
The student is not to jump unless the instructor is on the DZ or in the aircraft with the student.
The instructor will give full Wingsuit school, and brief and debrief each jump.
Instructor will supervise kit up, in aircraft, pre exit checks and flight plan.
The instructor, or experienced wing suiter nominated by the instructor will supervise pre exit checks and flight plan on solo and formation jumps.
Must wing suit jump to the exclusion of all other kinds of jumping till the progression is complete.
If no wing suit jump is done for 2 weeks, further solo drill dives are required.
----------------------------------------------------------
Now with +- 20 DZ's in the country, all but 2 operating Cessnas, and most with NO knowledge of wingsuits - these MOP's have tried to cater for everyone, on all manner of suits.
I'll be editing them shortly, trying to focus more on the flocking aspects in the early stages if competent wing suit pilots are available. I find I learn a lot on solo's now - but back then? Seeing how my changes in body position affected my flight relative to others really helped my learning curve.
t
It's the year of the Pig.
Beverly 1
WRT the competition element, I am quite happy with the distance and freefall elements, and this can be easlity measured with a neptune on each competitor which can be quite accurate.
In terms of the freestyle, there would need to be a level of leeway, as the freeflying disciplines have been quite staid in SaA due to the lack of specifics that people need to follow.
They are not very creative in coming up with their own moves and the traditionally military judges, have no clue how to judge.
I am not particularly keen on strapping hot smoke to my leg though!
If WS's become more of a spectator sport, there will be display jumps for Africa and the fun element will be taken out of it completely. But maybe there will be more $.
Will need to brainstorm this a bit more.....
I think true friendship is under-rated
Twitter: @Dreamskygirlsa
In terms of the freestyle, there would need to be a level of leeway, as the freeflying disciplines have been quite staid in SaA due to the lack of specifics that people need to follow.
They are not very creative in coming up with their own moves and the traditionally military judges, have no clue how to judge.
I am not particularly keen on strapping hot smoke to my leg though!
If WS's become more of a spectator sport, there will be display jumps for Africa and the fun element will be taken out of it completely. But maybe there will be more $.
Will need to brainstorm this a bit more.....
I think true friendship is under-rated
Twitter: @Dreamskygirlsa
Taz, I looked at your attached copy and found mine, they appear to be identical. I understand that there are certain criteria the powers that be in SA want to maintain in the way they undertake training and requirements. I'm remembering a now 2 year old conversation I had on this and from what I recall, I suggested a standard more in line with what we have here in the states.
I think the specific moves(barrel rolls etc) was added as a means of giving wingsuiting a criteria and hence maybe a rating, I am not positive on this. It was my understanding that people aren't as current there as we tend to be in the US and elsewhere, so thats why they wanted to have the refresher part. It is also my understanding that follows in line with a system already in place with normal skydiving procedures in SA. I think the MOP could be tweaked a tad bit more to be user friendly for the wingsuiters. Having you and what his name
as BMIs now will help you in establishing a better working relationship with those who decide what goes into the MOP. Hopefully you will be able to work on this in the near future and use what you learned in the BMI course to support and explain your position. If you require any help in this, let me know.
As far as competitions go, several good ideas have been kicked around and I have worked with several people on establishing actual courses in the sky for slalom type events. This is still far from perfect and can only be done in certain airspace as you have objects falling from the sky which most DZOs aren't too keen on no matter how inoxious or organic the material is. I am still working on trying to get wingsuiting recognized and sanctioned by the FAI as a discipline. It's still a work in progress but there is a light at the end of the tunnel as others familiar with the FAI have offered to help in this.
As much as people want to compete and have guidelines, I hate the thought of putting ourselves into a box with rules and regulations concerning things like time or distance events among the others that I have in mind. I fear it will lead us down the same road as the other disciplines of skydiving and get just as messy. I want wingsuiting to stay fun and open to the individual and true to the saying "Fly, be free".
I think the specific moves(barrel rolls etc) was added as a means of giving wingsuiting a criteria and hence maybe a rating, I am not positive on this. It was my understanding that people aren't as current there as we tend to be in the US and elsewhere, so thats why they wanted to have the refresher part. It is also my understanding that follows in line with a system already in place with normal skydiving procedures in SA. I think the MOP could be tweaked a tad bit more to be user friendly for the wingsuiters. Having you and what his name
as BMIs now will help you in establishing a better working relationship with those who decide what goes into the MOP. Hopefully you will be able to work on this in the near future and use what you learned in the BMI course to support and explain your position. If you require any help in this, let me know.
As far as competitions go, several good ideas have been kicked around and I have worked with several people on establishing actual courses in the sky for slalom type events. This is still far from perfect and can only be done in certain airspace as you have objects falling from the sky which most DZOs aren't too keen on no matter how inoxious or organic the material is. I am still working on trying to get wingsuiting recognized and sanctioned by the FAI as a discipline. It's still a work in progress but there is a light at the end of the tunnel as others familiar with the FAI have offered to help in this.
As much as people want to compete and have guidelines, I hate the thought of putting ourselves into a box with rules and regulations concerning things like time or distance events among the others that I have in mind. I fear it will lead us down the same road as the other disciplines of skydiving and get just as messy. I want wingsuiting to stay fun and open to the individual and true to the saying "Fly, be free".
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING
Everyone agrees to dump by some specified altitude (say 3000'), and spotters on the ground just watch to see which canopy opens farthest away from the exit point.
I guess it'd be easy to cheat (unless you equip everyone with a pro-track to measure opening altitude), but who really cares?
Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com
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