ManBird 0 #1 October 28, 2003 Has anyone else out there thought to seek some advanced training? When I visited DeLand in April, I met Rod Driver, who was frustrated with the lack of advanced wingsuit pilots to offer training to improve fall rate, glide ratio, aerobatics, flocking, etc. The instructor he found usually had less flights than him, and usually had GTis or Skyflyers, while he was one of the first the get a Skyflyer 3. Also while down there, I'd met Andy Ford (Fordy), who helped correct a lot of bad habits I'd developed, and was definitely in the position to offer that sort of training. While you can discuss body position online, there's nothing that compares to one-on-one training and a pair of experienced eyes that can see what you're doing wrong and make the right adjustments. The difference of even an inch in any part of your vody position can be the difference between falling and "the sweet spot". With 312 wingsuit flights now, I do feel qualified to offer training to those with half my flight numbers that are looking to improve their fall rate, forward speed, or both (glide ratio), or things like backflying and some aerobatics (not to mention flying relative to a parachute). At the same time, I'd love to find out what I can learn from those with more experience than myself. I'm sure Fordy has a lot left to teach me. I'm weak on flocking and big ways. I don't know anything about camera/wingsuit work (though I've done it about 25 times), and could learn a lot there. I'm really on the topic of instruction right now, obviously. The concern is definitely the first wingsuit flight course. But much like someone trying hook turns who never learned anything about canopy flight outside of AFF, I encourage the über-experienced flyers to offer up their talents to the non-über-experienced flyers so that no one else has to wait until they are 150 flights in to find out that they're doing it wrong. :)"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #2 October 28, 2003 While I agre that advanced instruction would be nice, I don't see it happening as there is not a lot of profit, and that tends to drive new ventures. Working with your peers in a comunal effort may acheve the results you are looking for. On another note, it has been experienced that focusing on one aspect of the sport can produce a plateau in learning. I've encountered this myself. Noticing that over 1/2 of your jumps appear to be Birdman, may I sugest you get out and do some RW or FreeFlying (or better yet both) and both learn more about how to interact with the air, and knock the edge off of that learning "plateau". Have fun....---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #3 October 28, 2003 That's why I bought the S-Fly... you know... for diversity. ;) Hey, I fly a canopy, too. My other disciplines are snowboarding and mountain biking. It's a similar concept, actually, and winter here forces me to take a break from jumping in general. :("¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #4 October 28, 2003 I think you miss the point, Steve. There are not a lot of people in the world with more wingsuit jumps than you do, even though you have only a rudimentary amount of other general skydiving knowledge. My advice to you would be to go out and get some "real" ratings and play around with other disciplines within the sport. I very-firmly believe that we are about to make some changes as to who can be an instructor in our little bit of skydiving. Those of you who are interested in getting BM instructional ratings ought to go ahead and at least get a coach rating, less you be disqualified from attending our course in the future. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #5 October 28, 2003 Quote My advice to you would be to go out and get some "real" ratings and play around with other disciplines within the sport. *** This would help out ALOT! Quote of you who are interested in getting BM instructional ratings ought to go ahead and at least get a coach rating, less you be disqualified from attending our course in the future. *** Maybe this requirement as a coach or the eqivalent should have been implimented in the start of the BMI rating? Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 4 #6 October 28, 2003 I completely agree, Ed. That said, we, in the very-near future (next month) are going to sit down and work out what the future holds in regards to the BM-I rating. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ManBird 0 #7 October 28, 2003 That last post wasn't to be taken too seriously. I know that I need to go arch and fall for awhile to get applicable ratings, but my problem is that I really just don't have an interest to participate in other aspects of the sport (other than canopy stuff). I'm screwing myself into a corner and I realize that. It's worth it for now. I can definitely learn from others, take you (SM1) for example. You definitely know more than a thing or two about formation skydiving from doing regular RW, and can apply that to your wingsuit flying. I, too, would like to be proficient at formation skydiving, but right now; I'm only interested in doing so in wingsuit flight. I know it's not something I can learn right away and will take many, many jumps, but it is something I could learn. Even those who have fewer flights than me can teach me something. Someone with only fifty flights that are all on BASE jumps will be an invaluable resource to me for wingsuit BASE. As far as gaining general skydiving knowledge, why would I be prevented from learning that with all wingsuit jumps? Take someone who has 5,000 jumps where 4,000 are RW, and someone else with 5,000 jumps where 4,000 are freeflying. Is one going to lack skydiving fundamentals more than the other because they have a different discipline? If one day I have 5,000 skydives, and 4,000 are in a wingsuit, will I lack general skydiving knowledge? I believe I lack a rudimentary knowledge of skydiving because I only have about 600 jumps and three years in the sport, not because over half my jumps are wingsuit flights. On the other hand, the few times that I try a different discipline out, while I don't do it on the level of other people with the same jump numbers that focus on that discipline, I'm not terrible at it, either. I've thrown in the occasional freefly or RW, and didn't suck. I used the same mechanics in wingsuit flying to do some belly RW and some freeflying. You can apply what you learn from freeflying or bellyflying to wingsuit flying, and the reverse is true. When it comes down to it, it's the same principles with any discipline. Gravity is pulling you down, there are particles in the air that you can push against. Turn with your legs, dock with your hands. Slimmer is faster, thicker is slower. When explaining the "controls" to a new bird, I usually ask what sort of flying they do, and can usually reply, "Same thing, only sideways." Requiring a coach rating for the BM-I is great first step. Not just in the qualifications of the instructor, but in the acceptance of the rating by USPA member DZs. Good stuff. I'll see you in Eloy. If you're holding a BM-I course, I'd be honored to have you as my evaluator."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ManBird 0 #8 October 28, 2003 Hmmm... I seriously doubt that I'll have (practical) access to a coach course by the end of the year. If you implement the change before the course at Eloy, I guess I'll have to use my $300 on jumps. :) If I do find out about a coaching course in the NW before then, I'll definitely attempt to get my rating."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 4 #9 October 28, 2003 Expect the course we run at Eloy to be substantially different than those which have been run in the past. At our "meeting of the minds" in late November we are going to absolutely hash it out for the the best. Make sure that what we are teaching and what we are requiring of our instructors is inline with what could potentially be expected should the discipline's rating program be "eaten" by the national aeroclubs and governing organizations. It only makes sense. Yes, I will be evaluating and teaching at Eloy. It will be a fantastic time. See you all there. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites John4455 0 #10 October 29, 2003 Has USPA been involved in this rating, or do you think that they will in the near future? How do ya like it Johnny? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kevin922 0 #11 October 29, 2003 QuoteHas USPA been involved in this rating, or do you think that they will in the near future? The uspa was involved in putting the wingsuit section into the SIM here and I've been talking with them about a wingsuit rating. Basically you have to present it to the safety & training board in a proposal to get the ball rolling. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cpoxon 0 #12 October 29, 2003 QuoteThe uspa was involved in putting the wingsuit section into the SIM here Well, since the USPA publish it, I should hope they are involved! :-P According to Kevin Gibson's Safety Check in the October 2003 Parachutist, QuoteThe 2003 version (there was no 2002 edition) had a new section on wingsuit jumping, developed through wingsuit innovator Jari Kuosma. This is the best way; the experts providing the information, rather than people legislating about things they know little about.Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 4 #13 October 29, 2003 Agreed Craig. It's my opinion that the people making these recommendations be rated, very-experienced skydivers. I sense an usurping of authority here on several levels. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ManBird 0 #14 October 29, 2003 QuoteWhile I agre that advanced instruction would be nice, I don't see it happening as there is not a lot of profit, and that tends to drive new ventures. Working with your peers in a comunal effort may acheve the results you are looking for.I don't mean establishing a business. I just mean that if you are a BM-I or other wingsuit coach, it'd be nice to make it known at what level and in what areas you may provide instruction outside of the first flight. I think the posting of wingsuit jump numbers in the BM-I directory is a good start. QuoteI sense an usurping of authority here on several levels.I wouldn't go so far as to say that. I think it's more that wingsuit instruction isn't really there yet in terms of maturity, availability, and consistency. People such as myself and others are getting tired of wingsuits seeming to be so inaccessible to those who want to try them. I'm in a situation where I'm not an instructor, but am forced to be one in an adhoc form because there isn't a practical and consistent rating program in place. I rant about this on here not to usurp authority, but to encourage authority to act on this. If there was a formal program from a governing body already in place, I wouldn't have been handed the wingsuit instruction role, I would have to have earned it. It looks like we may actually have one coming up, though. Wingsuit popularity is growing faster than the current instruction model can keep up. I think you're seeing "unqualified" people acting on it because it appears that no one else is. Apparently, that change is, in fact, in the wind coming up in November. Something I thought about this morning... if the BM-I rating requires a coach rating or governing body's equivalent, will current BM-Is without a coach rating get to keep their BM-I rating?"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 4 #15 October 29, 2003 Do current D-license holders who do not have 500 jumps get to keep their license? The answer to both is "yes." What's done is done. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ManBird 0 #16 October 29, 2003 Word. That's what I thought."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VectorBoy 0 #17 October 30, 2003 Do I have to give the instructor patch on Jari's old prototype suit back? Sorry bad joke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ManBird 0 #18 October 30, 2003 Just grab a marker and change it to "The Instructicator III". They'll know not to mess with you."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
SkymonkeyONE 4 #6 October 28, 2003 I completely agree, Ed. That said, we, in the very-near future (next month) are going to sit down and work out what the future holds in regards to the BM-I rating. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #7 October 28, 2003 That last post wasn't to be taken too seriously. I know that I need to go arch and fall for awhile to get applicable ratings, but my problem is that I really just don't have an interest to participate in other aspects of the sport (other than canopy stuff). I'm screwing myself into a corner and I realize that. It's worth it for now. I can definitely learn from others, take you (SM1) for example. You definitely know more than a thing or two about formation skydiving from doing regular RW, and can apply that to your wingsuit flying. I, too, would like to be proficient at formation skydiving, but right now; I'm only interested in doing so in wingsuit flight. I know it's not something I can learn right away and will take many, many jumps, but it is something I could learn. Even those who have fewer flights than me can teach me something. Someone with only fifty flights that are all on BASE jumps will be an invaluable resource to me for wingsuit BASE. As far as gaining general skydiving knowledge, why would I be prevented from learning that with all wingsuit jumps? Take someone who has 5,000 jumps where 4,000 are RW, and someone else with 5,000 jumps where 4,000 are freeflying. Is one going to lack skydiving fundamentals more than the other because they have a different discipline? If one day I have 5,000 skydives, and 4,000 are in a wingsuit, will I lack general skydiving knowledge? I believe I lack a rudimentary knowledge of skydiving because I only have about 600 jumps and three years in the sport, not because over half my jumps are wingsuit flights. On the other hand, the few times that I try a different discipline out, while I don't do it on the level of other people with the same jump numbers that focus on that discipline, I'm not terrible at it, either. I've thrown in the occasional freefly or RW, and didn't suck. I used the same mechanics in wingsuit flying to do some belly RW and some freeflying. You can apply what you learn from freeflying or bellyflying to wingsuit flying, and the reverse is true. When it comes down to it, it's the same principles with any discipline. Gravity is pulling you down, there are particles in the air that you can push against. Turn with your legs, dock with your hands. Slimmer is faster, thicker is slower. When explaining the "controls" to a new bird, I usually ask what sort of flying they do, and can usually reply, "Same thing, only sideways." Requiring a coach rating for the BM-I is great first step. Not just in the qualifications of the instructor, but in the acceptance of the rating by USPA member DZs. Good stuff. I'll see you in Eloy. If you're holding a BM-I course, I'd be honored to have you as my evaluator."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #8 October 28, 2003 Hmmm... I seriously doubt that I'll have (practical) access to a coach course by the end of the year. If you implement the change before the course at Eloy, I guess I'll have to use my $300 on jumps. :) If I do find out about a coaching course in the NW before then, I'll definitely attempt to get my rating."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #9 October 28, 2003 Expect the course we run at Eloy to be substantially different than those which have been run in the past. At our "meeting of the minds" in late November we are going to absolutely hash it out for the the best. Make sure that what we are teaching and what we are requiring of our instructors is inline with what could potentially be expected should the discipline's rating program be "eaten" by the national aeroclubs and governing organizations. It only makes sense. Yes, I will be evaluating and teaching at Eloy. It will be a fantastic time. See you all there. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
John4455 0 #10 October 29, 2003 Has USPA been involved in this rating, or do you think that they will in the near future? How do ya like it Johnny? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kevin922 0 #11 October 29, 2003 QuoteHas USPA been involved in this rating, or do you think that they will in the near future? The uspa was involved in putting the wingsuit section into the SIM here and I've been talking with them about a wingsuit rating. Basically you have to present it to the safety & training board in a proposal to get the ball rolling. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #12 October 29, 2003 QuoteThe uspa was involved in putting the wingsuit section into the SIM here Well, since the USPA publish it, I should hope they are involved! :-P According to Kevin Gibson's Safety Check in the October 2003 Parachutist, QuoteThe 2003 version (there was no 2002 edition) had a new section on wingsuit jumping, developed through wingsuit innovator Jari Kuosma. This is the best way; the experts providing the information, rather than people legislating about things they know little about.Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #13 October 29, 2003 Agreed Craig. It's my opinion that the people making these recommendations be rated, very-experienced skydivers. I sense an usurping of authority here on several levels. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #14 October 29, 2003 QuoteWhile I agre that advanced instruction would be nice, I don't see it happening as there is not a lot of profit, and that tends to drive new ventures. Working with your peers in a comunal effort may acheve the results you are looking for.I don't mean establishing a business. I just mean that if you are a BM-I or other wingsuit coach, it'd be nice to make it known at what level and in what areas you may provide instruction outside of the first flight. I think the posting of wingsuit jump numbers in the BM-I directory is a good start. QuoteI sense an usurping of authority here on several levels.I wouldn't go so far as to say that. I think it's more that wingsuit instruction isn't really there yet in terms of maturity, availability, and consistency. People such as myself and others are getting tired of wingsuits seeming to be so inaccessible to those who want to try them. I'm in a situation where I'm not an instructor, but am forced to be one in an adhoc form because there isn't a practical and consistent rating program in place. I rant about this on here not to usurp authority, but to encourage authority to act on this. If there was a formal program from a governing body already in place, I wouldn't have been handed the wingsuit instruction role, I would have to have earned it. It looks like we may actually have one coming up, though. Wingsuit popularity is growing faster than the current instruction model can keep up. I think you're seeing "unqualified" people acting on it because it appears that no one else is. Apparently, that change is, in fact, in the wind coming up in November. Something I thought about this morning... if the BM-I rating requires a coach rating or governing body's equivalent, will current BM-Is without a coach rating get to keep their BM-I rating?"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #15 October 29, 2003 Do current D-license holders who do not have 500 jumps get to keep their license? The answer to both is "yes." What's done is done. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #16 October 29, 2003 Word. That's what I thought."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #17 October 30, 2003 Do I have to give the instructor patch on Jari's old prototype suit back? Sorry bad joke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #18 October 30, 2003 Just grab a marker and change it to "The Instructicator III". They'll know not to mess with you."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
