The Wingsuit Instruction Rating Debate

[ManBird 0]

The more I think about it, the more undecided I am on a wingsuit-specific rating required for wingsuit instruction. I was really all for it, but I gave it a lot of thought, weighed a lot of pros and cons, and am finding that I am liking the idea less and less. This is totally my own opinion and what I think has no bearing in the real world. This post will not affect the outcome of anything, so don't get too upset if and when you disagree. Let's try to keep the voicing of our disagreements civil and logical, as we have in other threads. That disclaimer out of the way, here's what I've been debating with myself:

COACH RATING

Technically, you do not need a coach rating to provide instruction to a licensed skydiver, and the purpose behind a coach rating, as I see it, is for post-AFF-level-7 students and new licensees. I do agree that a coach rating would provide skydiving instruction fundamentals. I'd like to get my rating for that benefit, but fear that if I get the rating, I will be required to do coach jumps with unlicensed students at my home DZ (as others have), which is not what I want to do in this sport right now.

My view: The coach rating is highly recommended, but I don't think it should be required.

BM-I RATING

There is no instructional rating for any discipline in skydiving where unlicensed skydivers are not involved... even where different gear is involved (ie, skysurfing). A BM-I, specifically, is good for BirdMan because it helps people who are considering a purchase or have purchased a suit to get into it properly and safely, and ensures a standard. However, this shouldn't prevent or inhibit wingsuit instruction by those who are qualified but do not hold the rating.

If that was the case, the rating would hurt, not help, the growth of wingsuit flying. If that was the case, we'd have at least a dozen or so birds I've taken that otherwise may have never flown. There are no BM-Is in the Northwest at all. Should this mean that no one gets to fly a wingsuit in the NW? Of course not. Also, if BirdMan requires a rating, but other manufacturers don't, this may cause people to buy from other manufacturers to avoid having to locate a BM-I.

The BM-I program is, in my opinion, a way to ensure standards and quality of instruction for the initial use of suits manufactured by BirdMan, but it should not be required for BirdMan suit instruction. I think the rating and its purpose should be viewed as what it is and not be treated as other instructional ratings or a merit badge. I also believe that those who plan on providing instruction without a BM-I rating should consult BirdMan and, at the bare minimum, get their advice and respect their decision if they decide you should not provide instruction based on your qualifications (or lack thereof). Basically, find out if your instruction plans are a benefit or a violation.

My view: I don't think the BM-I rating should be required for BirdMan specific instruction, but permission should be sought from BirdMan.

GENERAL WINGSUIT RATING

It sounds like the revision to the instruction program, if taken to the level of a wingsuit instruction rating in the governing bodies of skydiving, would potentially do more harm than good. While the instruction quality might be great, it would, at best, slow the sales and use of wingsuits. At worst, it would kill wingsuit flying. If you can't get instruction from someone that isn't rated, the amount of work it will take to find someone who is may not be worth the fulfillment of curiosity. If you are rated and everyone has to go to you for instruction, then say goodbye to a lot of fun jumps. Not all of us want to spend every weekend working in the sport, believe it or not. Instruction is fun for me when I'm not required to do it.

My view: I am opposed to a general wingsuit rating, required or not.

WINGSUIT SCHOOLS

Chuck mentioned freefly schools; how they pop up without credentials and he doesn't like seeing that. Neither do I. I can see an official rating potentially promoting that activity rather than preventing it. I think a lot of people would use the rating responsibly, provide instruction, and really aim to get new birds in the air and get other birds to fly better. Inversely, I can see people getting the rating and setting up a school as a means to improve their image... a trophy to show off that only indicates skill or teaching ability to a certain level. On the other hand, without a rating, you could see the same thing happen, but frauds might be easier to point out if they have to rely purely on achievements and the program they've established, instead of three letters, a hyphen, and a badge.

Wingsuit schools will be established. The variation in quality and integrity will be the same whether there is a required rating or not. A required rating would only inhibit the existence of these schools. Even if a wingsuit school was run by a money-hungry ego-tripper that sucks in the air but gives a good course on the ground, it would still benefit the growth of wingsuit flying.

My view: A discipline-specific rating should not be required. Schools should establish credentials through achievements and a solid instruction program.

CHARGING FOR INSTRUCTION (SCHOOL OR NOT)

Personally, I don't charge for instruction. I even pay for my own slot (unless someone offers). If you do charge for instruction, this is something that should be worked out first with your drop zone, and then the wingsuit community in general. If your drop zone grants you permission and deems you qualified, and, if possible, other wingsuit flyers have also deemed you qualified, that seems like the right conditions to set up a school or provide coaching independently. I believe it was JP that has something set up with Perris' school. That's a good model to follow.

My view: General acceptance and coordination with a drop zone should be the determining factors for paid instruction. Required ratings should be determined by the drop zone.

IN GENERAL

I'm interested in both the growth and safety of wingsuit flying. Over-regulating will inhibit growth. Under-regulating will inhibit safety. Many disciplines have shown up in skydiving and have grown with only a certain amount of general regulation and recommendations. I see no reason to exceed any amount regulation that there has been in the past.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[TALONSKY 0]

Taking a step back from my passion to fly wingsuits and looking at the idea of having to pay $300 to get a BMI rating just sounds wrong. I mean I know that the people that give the course should be paid for what they do, but it only sales more suits for the company if there are more BMI’s out there. Why then should potential candidates have to pay to become a BMI (or in put a different way a partial sales rep for Birdman). I think people should have quality instruction for the first flight but I really am not sold on the idea of the BMI. I am against the idea of having to pay Birdman to certify me to teach others how to fly birdman suits (which again will only make the company more money in the long run with increased sales).
Kirk

[VectorBoy 0]

JP is not on either of the AFF or post liscening schools staffs at Perris valley. He was a BMI at a previous DZ and now he works for a gear dealer near the DZ. He is available on some weekends with a PM.

A few months ago wingsuit instruction may have been handled by the FF school. It would be the equivalent of skydive Arizona relying on Greg Gasson and Omar to instruct in wingsuits based on their vast overal experience and ability to teach.

Due to the otter strike perris has been wingsuit conscious and relied on the people with the most wingsuit experience to help sort things out. Like the experience that Jari and kim brought with them on their visits. But in their absence they had to rely on other experts and not someone that had a BMI blessing of dubious origin. And we have seen quite a few. This was the old management and since I'm not their spokesman I have no idea what new policies are in place now.

We did take up some of the school staff ( obviously above 500 jumps+ the ability to instruct) on their first flights, even some of the staff at SSD. We talked briefly about their thoughts on getting some of their staff members, that desired, to come up with a program and ratings through BMI.

[ManBird 0]

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JP is not on either of the AFF or post liscening schools staffs at Perris valley. He was a BMI at a previous DZ and now he works for a gear dealer near the DZ. He is available on some weekends with a PM.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. The fact that the BM-I program goes through the store and not the school sort of backs up what both TALONSKY and I said.

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A few months ago wingsuit instruction may have been handled by the FF school. It would be the equivalent of skydive Arizona relying on Greg Gasson and Omar to instruct in wingsuits based on their vast overal experience and ability to teach.

Right, that is weird. The wingsuit knowledge without the instruction background is irrelevant. The instruction background without the wingsuit knowledge is even more irrelevant.

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Due to the otter strike perris has been wingsuit conscious and relied on the people with the most wingsuit experience to help sort things out. Like the experience that Jari and kim brought with them on their visits. But in their absence they had to rely on other experts and not someone that had a BMI blessing of dubious origin. And we have seen quite a few. This was the old management and since I'm not their spokesman I have no idea what new policies are in place now.

I think wingsuit experience is the major factor here. You're comparing apples to alligators. There's the man himself, Jari (1,300+ flights), and Kim (350+ flights) from BirdMan. Some guys with x number of flights. And then a, if I recall correctly, pretty new bird that made a mistake. I think even the non-BMI "experts" made a point out of exiting wings closed, but it happened anyway (that's why we like to take the scare-the-shit-out-of-you approach to plane strike warnings).

Not every drop zone has Jari and Kim to visiting them (most drop zones are a wee bit smaller than Perris), but we're not having plane strikes, either. It sounds more like a fuck up that can't really be blamed on anyone or anything but the jumper and maybe complacency. No offense or anything, I just think a finger is being pointed in the wrong direction. The jumper hit the plane, not the instructor. If no one ever explained to him about pilot communication, then that is exceptionally bad instruction that doesn't quite warrant a fix by Jari or Kim... just a wingsuit pilot that's at least a little competent.

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We did take up some of the school staff (obviously above 500 jumps+ the ability to instruct) on their first flights, even some of the staff at SSD. We talked briefly about their thoughts on getting some of their staff members, that desired, to come up with a program and ratings through BMI.

This sounds right. This is how it should be. Though it would be good for the staff to get a lot of wingsuit knowledge, or at least consult someone with a lot of knowledge. While the staff at SDO hasn't put many wingsuit jumps in, they make the policies while consulting with the wingsuit flyers. It's a collaborative effort where the strengths that everyone has to offer are combined to create safe and effective policies and instruction that make everyone happy in the end. The decisions are ultimately theirs, by they value our input.

With Perris' staff and DZ managaement experience and the knowledge of flyers like yourself, JP, and whoever else is there, you guys should be able to come up with a fine program. Good stuff.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[diablopilot 2]

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JP is not on either of the AFF or post liscening schools staffs at Perris valley. He was a BMI at a previous DZ and now he works for a gear dealer near the DZ. He is available on some weekends with a PM.

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Ah, thanks for the clarification. The fact that the BM-I program goes through the store and not the school sort of backs up what both TALONSKY and I said.

To clear the waters:

There is no offcial BirdMan school at Perris currently. (The near future is another storydetails, detail, details......)

Square 1 does not want to (and should not) accept the liability of being a "school"

I am a part time instructor (tandem, and video) for the PVS School. I hold a USPA Coach, and Tandem Rating (Vector/Sigma)

I am, separately from any entity, a BMI and a former SkyDance Wingsuit coach/instructor/whatever.

OK?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[VectorBoy 0]

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A few months ago wingsuit instruction may have been handled by the FF school. It would be the equivalent of skydive Arizona relying on Greg Gasson and Omar to instruct in wingsuits based on their vast overal experience and ability to teach.

Right, that is weird. The wingsuit knowledge without the instruction background is irrelevant. The instruction background without the wingsuit knowledge is even more irrelevant.
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They have plenty of wingsuit experience, some of it with Patrick in the days before Bird-man as we know it today. There are many active famous, high profile skydivers of various disciplines that have maintained a low profile, long time flirtation with wing suit flight.
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Due to the otter strike perris has been wingsuit conscious and relied on the people with the most wingsuit experience to help sort things out. Like the experience that Jari and kim brought with them on their visits. But in their absence they had to rely on other experts and not someone that had a BMI blessing of dubious origin. And we have seen quite a few. This was the old management and since I'm not their spokesman I have no idea what new policies are in place now.

I think wingsuit experience is the major factor here. You're comparing apples to alligators. There's the man himself, Jari (1,300+ flights), and Kim (350+ flights) from BirdMan. Some guys with x number of flights. And then a, if I recall correctly, pretty new bird that made a mistake. I think even the non-BMI "experts" made a point out of exiting wings closed, but it happened anyway (that's why we like to take the scare-the-shit-out-of-you approach to plane strike warnings).
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the otter strike wasn't on exit but about twenty some seconds after exit. Both the craft and the jumper were descending on the same side of jump run. And at the time the jumper wasn't considered inexperienced. You could almost say enough jumps to be a BMI.
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[jari 0]

Hi,

My first coments just very quickly. In general I have to agree with you 100%. The BMI rating was never nothing else but to ensure the safety of those who wanted to fly.

You have to understand that before your time the general opinion was totally AGAINST wingsuits and skyflying. Skydivers thought that your changes of survival is pretty close to zero if you were so stupid that you flew a wingsuit. Oh boy have those opinions changed over last 4 years. Why is that? Largerly because of the knowledge out there and the right knowledge in particular. I started to train BMI's for this particular reason because I hate general rules and regulations. I always thougt that if we share the knowledge ourselves and keep the sport safe we will need no rules and police and such. Many DZ's unfortunately regulate what their jumpers can do and what not. It is easier for them to just say no, collet their money easily from regular jump activity and if there is somebody who wants to do something extraordinary it is alway easy to say because it is "not safe".

It would help everybody if we had more BMI's and all kinds of instructors out there, sharing the knowledge and helping eachother out. Some do that for money because that is what they do for living and some do it for free because they do what they believe is right thing to do. We all do it for love. However, what i strongly favour is the professional attitude and approach to teaching and coaching. You can't teach somebody how to use the wingsuit just a little bit! You have to go all the way. You can't just teach half of what is important. The half that you are forgetting may kill your guy and that is why anybody who teaches should have their shit together, should take their time (and thus the well earned small amount of cash) to make sure the first flight student understands what he/she is thaught.

In general one does not need an BMI or any other coach to fly the wingsuit taken that this person has enough experience and enough knowledge (like our flight manual for instance). One needs the experience to make the decision whether one has enough knowledge and correct equicpment. However, it makes the first flight experience easier and safer should you have some professional in first hand telling what to do and what not. Trust me, I have been there ;-)

I hate regulations more than anything but even more I hate when someone looses his life, or boyfriend or mother you name it, for a stupid reason like somebody teaching you what to do when they don't have a clue and eventually will kill you. This has happened already and I wish it will never happen again.

Only for that reason I am a strong supporter of sharing the knowledge through trained professionals. Many out there mean well but do they have enough knowledge to really know what they are doing?

Long and safe flights!

Jari

PS: Next BMI course DeLand 22-23.11.2003

Jari

"Hey, don't be afraid, ever. Because, it's just a ride."

[ManBird 0]

I just now read this. Jari laid it down straight. I can't identify a single flaw in your thinking. Looks like the real challenge is ensuring standards without increasing regulation.

This discipline is maturing and the flight numbers are climbing. Like any other discipline, I think the decisions on coaching made by new birds will be based on due diligence. It's painstakingly obvious who the best RW and freefly coaches are out there, because enough time has past for coaches to prove themselves. Maybe the solution is to just be patient.

Something those disciplines have that we don't is competition... proving grounds. Some argue against competition and just want to fly for fun, but I have a feeling that we will see organized competition eventually. No discipline has escaped it yet!

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[kimgriffin 0]

Very well put, Jari. I agree 100%

ManBird Wrote:
My view: I don't think the BM-I rating should be required for BirdMan specific instruction, but permission should be sought from BirdMan.

Kim replies:
There is no way BirdMan could know by someone who calls or even drops by if they have the WS teaching or flying skills needed. That plan could lead to having many terrible teachers out there claiming that they could do the FFC (first flight course).

There was a death a few years back where a guy went in with a BirdMan suit - he landed all wrapped up in his main canopy. No one knows how he wrapped himself up but one fact is that he was given the suit to try by a friend who had a handful of WS jumps. I'm sure his friend told him what he know of WS flying. Although this death MAY have had something to do with the way the canopy opened, my opinion is that this guy would have stood more of a chance of landing alive if he would have been trained by a BMI how to properly handle the suit at pull time.

Jari is one of the most anti-rule people I know and he's certainly not in the WS business for the huge amounts of money it generates. I believe his intentions in regards to training is to do what is in his power (which is not all that much) to help keep this part of our sport safe.

In the last BMI course I evaluted, two of the candidates (who got their rating) told me that they could not believe how much they learned (about teaching people to fly). And these guys were experienced flyers.

Maybe some one else will come up with their own comprensive traing program some day. For now, the BMIC course seems the safest solution in assuring quality WS instruction.

Just my 2cents...

:) Kim

-Kimberly Griffin