first flight + questions (long)

[The111 1]

Another one joins the flock as the saying goes.
Then I put 4 jumps on a GTI demo which I of course bought immediately. One was a 2 way with an experienced S3 flyer, was a tiny bit scary because I could see just how much power the suit had any time one of us got a bit twitchy and zoomed a bit. Got behind him at one point, managed to get back side by side and then we zoomed and bumped shoulders by accident with about 5mph closing speed, he grinned sheepishly and I got spun 180 degrees away from him but recovered quickly and we were side by side again but 50m apart. Stayed that way until breakoff. Avg speeds on GTI flights - low 70s.

I had some nice deployments on the GTI, the one before last actually felt straight down, didn't seem to be any forward throw. But the last one I could tell even as I was dumping something was a little off, had a LOT of forward throw and my first more than 90 degree off heading... 3 line twists but arms were unzipped and twists gone within 5 seconds - Spectre 170. No mods to my Vector 3 or my packing.

So here are my questions.

Flight/Speed

Note - used Pro-Trac in helmet for all speed calcs. Dunno if that's good/bad. Maybe I need Neptune.

The GTI felt noticeably different than the Classic, which I only jumped once. The GTI took more work to keep stable and I felt a bit more head low in it in fast forward flight (toes pointed shoulders rolled). I actually had more fun in the Classic I think, but maybe that's just because it was my first jump... I bought the GTI regardless because it was brand new, fit me perfect, and I figure it makes more sense to get good on a GTI if I ever want to fly an S3.

After my first jump Chris explained to me two different ways to fly:

Distance - Legs straight, toes pointed, shoulders rolled, probably a somewhat steep angle of body orientation and not the slowest fall rate.
Duration - Knees slightly bent to expose leg wing vent, pushing down hard with elbows, probably a somewhat shallow angle of body orientation and not the best distance covered.

Correct me if I'm wrong on either of those.

On the Classic, I only tried the "distance" position since that's all I knew. I achieved my slowest sustained flight of all, 66mph, in the Classic in that body position, but I didn't feel too head low, so maybe on the Classic it's a bit different.

On the GTI, if I tried the distance position I'd average about 74mph (faster than the Classic!) and get quite a bit more head low, which probably meant I was getting more distance and explains the fast fallrate. I tried the "duration" position a few times but it didn't feel too fun and I don't think it slowed me down more than anything else I'd done. I didn't do it too long though and I think next week I'll do it for a whole flight and see what Pro-Trac tells me. So I'm still kind of confused that I flew the Classic slower than the GTI, and not only was I in a Classic, I was in a body position that's not supposed to be the slowest.

So I guess I'm curious what are the speeds that you guys have experienced in GTI's and Classics and the body positions you've used to achieve them. And an explanation for why my Classic flight was the slowest. I see pics of Jari flying with legs bent, but overall I like have my legs extended and toes pointed, but my quads are a bit sore today probably because I was flying like that.

Deployment

Per my instruction I was bringing my arms in simultaneously with my legs for the third waveoff click, but the manual I just looked through seemed to say complete the third heel click, *keep* your legs closed, and *then* bring your arms in. To me this sounds better as you'd have less forward speed that way. It also seemed to say only bring your arms back out as you deploy and then close them again immediately, whereas I think my instruction was to reopen all 3 wings as I deploy, and not close them again until I feel bag extraction. I like the idea of just reopening the arms for throw and closing them right away. I read all of this stuff after my weekend of jumping though so haven't been able to try it out yet.

I also seemed to read either in that book or in some posts on here that it can be useful to bend your legs slightly (what I called "duration" position above) before waveoff/deployment... that makes sense to me too since it will put you less headlow and kill some forward speed which means less throw on deployment. But I think I did all my waveoffs with legs pretty straight, and don't think I was instructed how to fly before waveoff.

I'm also curious about packing/mods since on that last jump I did get the 3 line twists. I have no container mods and packed grommet to reserve tray as normal, my instructor said this should be fine for a Vector 3. Any different opinions?

If you've read this far, thank you for enduring my post.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[VectorBoy 0]

Body awareness is difficult thing to nail. Its even harder to describe to what you think happened and for us to say what we think you should do. Video will prove what happened and what you think happened. The next best thing is flying with some other people who can give you tips and hand signals but it sounds like you are out flying them already nice job.

Your results sound right on as far as comparing the different suits, very typical. Better numbers on the classic. The bigger suits have a bigger envelope and it takes more time to explore the larger envelope.

Although my protrac ( inside my helmet ) and my neptune ( on my wrist ) give pretty close "numbers". Other than the neptune cutting off a few seconds of freefall time. Maybe due to the fact that it goes from clean air on the wrist to the BOC low area at deployment and the protrac is in a constant pressure situation. They don't match up with everybody's numbers. So I tend to rely more on how I fly relative to the other flockers. Who had to work to stay up or forward?

As far as the pictures of jari or other flockers taken in a "relaxed " pose, remember you won't be maxing a suit out when you are relative and posing for a picture. Even worse if the camera flyer is on a slower suit. The maxed out pics you will see are the ones where the bird-man is climbing above the aircraft and typically it will be a rear-end view. If see Jari really working his suit then you or the cameraman is doing one hell of a job keeping up!

[greybeard 0]

excellent questions and excellent answers. I learned from both. Thanks THE111 and VECTORBOY.

I've been wrestling with stability in max flight. Finally got deployment stable issues down.

While in controlled rw I've underestimated the flight envelope of GTI and CLASSICs and perhaps overestimated the capabilities of the S3. Granted, the flight skills of the S3 pilots amaze me, the pilots in the GTI and CLASSICs seam more relaxed and stable than I in my SKYFLYER I. I've been very prone to swing left and right, level and on heading, but unable to stop the lateral transition when expected. I'm going to try the 'elbow down', deflection as apposed to hands and total extended arm deflection.

THE111,

don't worry too much about the neurotic, gear issues. Their are all good, but if what's working is working is working, don't fix it.

[LouDiamond 1]

Let me clarify a little bit here so that you don't end up frustrated with your flights.


FLIGHT/SPEED:

The best way to get distance and duration is to fly efficiently, they go hand in hand with one another. Bending ones knees will slow one down in any of the suits. The only suit where a very small hint of a bend in the knees was recommended for stability was on the origianal SF. This was due to the small leg stance and the suits tendency to get washy when flying very hard. You need to concentrate on flying with your legs as straight as possible and with all your wings properly inflated, doing anything else means you will be falling out of the sky faster. You are finding it a bit different in the GTI becasue the wings are different from the Classic and require the pilot to fly his body more efficiently to keep everything working correctly. Once you adjust to the suits new demands you will find that comfort zone again and see an increase in your performance. This holds true when transitioning from one suit to another.

Deployment:

*Click heels 3 times, on the third click keep the heels together ensuring your knee bones are touching one another. Legs stay closed through out the deployment.

* Arch at the hips, look up, close both wings down simultaneously, violently throw your PC, ensure you open both arm wings simultaneously when you do this. When you arch give yourself a few seconds before you throw. This allows you to bleed off some of that forward speed. If you see your feet fly up in front of you on deployments you are throwing too quickly and not slowing down enough. On smaller canopies and on higher performance suits this can result in one falling back into your lines and or canopy due to the forces involved(yes there is a video, Jari has it)

* Immediately bring your arms in front of your emergency handles. You should be looking at your hands. (The canopy will be deploying at this point and you will have already felt the risers/lines stretch beside your head.) As soon as you feel your canopy above you look straight up to ensure you have a good canopy.
-If your canopy is good you immediately begin unzipping your arms. This happens quickly since your hands are positioned by one another already.

-If you look up and have line twists but the canopy is square and stable move to opening your arm zippers and deal with the twists.

-If your canopy is diving or continuing to spin go immediately to emergency procedures. your hands are in front of your handles already so this should happen quickly before it gets any uglier.Once your reserve opens continue with post opening procedures and unzip everything and prepare to land or find a safe landing area immediately, don't wait until you are 200 feet off the ground.


Bending ones knees on the high performance suits aids in slowing horizontal speed down and maintaining stability. It's the same concept as dropping your knees when belly flying. The important thing is to ensure the tail wing is not catching air or inflating as this can lead to some crazy body orientations.


As for mods you can search and find plenty of discussion of why it makes sense to have them.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[PhreeZone 20]

The reason you are so slidey is since you are flying a Skyflyer1. The narrow knees make them sketchy compared to a S3 or even a GTi.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[greybeard 0]

Given that, can you recommend a body position that would enable more control? Knees, shoulders, elbows, hands, center arch point?????

Thanks

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

Given that, can you recommend a body position that would enable more control? Knees, shoulders, elbows, hands, center arch point?????

Thanks

The only suit where a very small hint of a bend in the knees was recommended for stability was on the original SF. This was due to the small leg stance and the suits tendency to get washy when flying very hard.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[greybeard 0]

Please elaborate Lou! Suggestions for keeping up with the flock without dropping low.

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

Please elaborate Lou! Suggestions for keeping up with the flock without dropping low.

Proper body position is by far the key to fly efficiently. With that said I will also say that there are no "secrets" to better flying. There are however small pointers that can make a world of difference for some people. Without seeing a person fly you can't really generalize and say X will fix this and Y will fix that and be 100%. If your problem is falling out on flocks and your in a original SF1 then I would say you probablly find yourself falling out when you try to fly relative to them in close proximity. The original SF1 is by far the hardest of all the suits to fly. It is very much like a fighter jet in that it's built for speed and manuverability and that comes from a bit of unstability. The narrow leg stance(width) and the agressive arm wings make the suit fast as well as twitchy to body inputs. Slowing down enough to fly with people in different suits(classics and GTIs) and stay with them requires one to work all your bag of tricks to stay with them. In some cases that can be giving hand signals for body corrections to the person (in the classic or GTI)just like in AFF. By far the biggest problem I see in peoples flying is legs not fully extended and not dearching enough at the hips(get that butt up in the air).

If your getting a bit washy(instability) in your SF1 its usually when you are at the performance edge. When this starts to happen a very slight flex in your knees will settle the suit out and still allow you to fly efficiently but remember to keep the butt up when you do this. If you go flat assed when your flex the knee you will start loosing altitude and spped. Some people can lock their knees out completely in a SF1 and not get washy. For those who do have issues it feels like your gonna fly ass over kettle and spin out of control at any second and can be unsettling. The best way to find your max zone on the SF1 is to go balls to the wall as rigid as you can until you feel that washy sensation then relax your body just a hair and flex the knees. The riding the "beach ball" sensation is back farther on the SF1 due to the tail being slightly curved downward at the end.

Since you live in Az. I recommend you get with the BMIs there in Eloy(ash, lip,Dustin) for a few coach dives or you can come to the skills camp being held in October there as well. Nothing beats a eyes on, in air corrections flight to notice the big differences a little change can make.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[greybeard 0]

Thanks,

You nailed it! When I'm balls to the wall, I'm most fluid and stable. I can grab the air like turning on afterburners. When I try to rw adjust to others, I find the slip and slide.

I will concentrate on the de-arch. My suit actually has two extra inches of span at the bootie, so I have a lot of extra drive when I need it. Gotta play his weekend, I'm thinking the knees may be the clue to control I'm looking for. And the de-arch which is a bit abnormal to my 14 years of rw belly flying.

Thanks for the advise, anything else comes to mind, forward. Always open to insight.

Mark