Wingsuit design question

[pajarito 0]

Let me start by saying that I know nothing about wingsuit flying and have never done it but it looks extremely appealing to me. My question is this. Why do the arm wings begin at the wrists and stop at the waist? I've noticed that the size of the wing surface area increases with the more technical suits that, of course I'm sure, require much more experience to fly. I'm just wondering, for only the most experienced, why not extend the wing from the wrist all the way to the ankle. You'd look like a kite. I'm sure that would be much harder to control but, if there was slack in the wing to create a cupping effect, wouldn't that stabilize you more and create a lot more drag? Again, I appologize if this is a stupid question and one that might have been asked before. I'm just always curious as to what the next level of possibility might be within any discipline. That really looks like fun!!!

[diablopilot 2]

You'd probably end up in a situation with too much drag at the wrong end of your body. It's very easy to have too much drag on the lower half of the suit thus inducing a head low componant. It's harder to move the CG forward (up) on the torso, hence larger arm wings, and some suits are using inflated torsos.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[VectorBoy 0]

Since the surface area a human can hold with their arms is limited. I believe the designers are staying with the correct airfoil for a given airspeed that results in the perfect amount of lift without excessive force being put on the humans shoulder. Like a fighter jet.

But if people will attempt to land a suit, something along the lines of what you are thinking, something slower and floaty with more surface area may be the ticket.

Right now the suits are flying faster and better by improvements in other areas besides " getting more wing area". The Phi looks like it features less wing area.

[ryoder 1,590]

The reasons I've heard are:

1. There is a limit to human arm/shoulder strength.

2. Interference of the wing with reaching the BOC.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[pajarito 0]

I would think that some sort of internal frame structure just to take the pressure off the shoulder, if that is the major stress point, might allow more wing surface area. Kind of like the semi-rigid internal frame stucture of some hiking backpacks. I know that would add some weight but not too much. The added lift capacity might make up for that. It might be more effective for lighter persons, however. It would suck, though, if it broke during flight (time for surgery). That's why I mentioned that it would need to be ever so slightly flexible. It could be designed to bend downward to one's sides (maybe on a hinge) but resistant to bending backwards. From looking at it, it looks like it might double your arm wing lifting potential depending on your angle of attack. With the CG problem and the legs being heavier, maybe some sort of helmet design coupled with head positioning might help with the aerodynamics (kind of like the Concord). Also, in the leg wing design, maybe some sort of adjustable semi-rigid elevator design could be implemented to raise the legs in proportion with the rest of the body for optimum flight performance. I volunteer SkymonkeyOne for the test flights. Take it to the ground...baby!!!

[pajarito 0]

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2. Interference of the wing with reaching the BOC.

Maybe a BOC isn't the most practical method of PC deployment. With a cable and a handle and a spring loaded PC, a deployment mechanism could be rigged from anywhere. I guess you'd be concerned with the dead airspace on your back at that point, though, with a spring loaded PC. I don't know. Just thinking out loud.

[jmfreefly 0]

Yeah, and make the wings even wider and more rigid.. and maybe make a rigid device that you wear on the feet to aid in stability. Oh, and you could enclose the guy in a lexan bubble..

oh wait, we have that already... its called a glider.

I have had all the same thoughts as you, and I find myself asking 'where does it end?'. I mean when does human flight become something more mechanical?

Most of the early birdmen had rigid structures, and that was part of the reason they pretty much all died. (we are talking in the Valentino days). I would be wary about anything that prevents movement (to help resist forces), especially in a cutaway situation.

The popular science article on the birdman had several interesting points and some good anecdotes from Jari about flying wings that were just too big. The most impressive to me is the drawing that shows how much surface area would be needed to match the loading of a flying squirrel.

j

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

In my opinion, if you are not providing the structure, then it's not freefall. Anyone could land a glider. Thanks, but my two and a half minute freefalls (average) are fine with me at this point.

[LawnDart21 0]

Is there anyone in Europe still jumping the SkyRay?

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My other ride is a RESERVE.

[TomAiello 26]

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In my opinion, if you are not providing the structure, then it's not freefall.

What if you have an "inflatable structure" that is inflated by air pressure from free fall?

I'm picturing something like Yves' inflatable wing, but where the inflation was done via a one way valve, by freefall airflow.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[piisfish 140]

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In my opinion, if you are not providing the structure, then it's not freefall.

What if you have an "inflatable structure" that is inflated by air pressure from free fall?

I'm picturing something like Yves' inflatable wing, but where the inflation was done via a one way valve, by freefall airflow.

don't know if you would get enough pressure to inflate and keep in shape "external" wings, considering that the wings on a suit are "internal", between legs/arms/body.
Well pressure, you'll certainly have enough... even much too much... maybe easier to inflate at low speeds. something like www.woopy-fly.com ... the guy (laurent de Kalbermatten) invented a structure similar to this one, with the pilot seated in middle of the wing... he was the owner of Ailes de K (pronounce L de K, like his name...), a brand of paragliders who really helped in the explosion of paragliding in europe. 100s of incredible inventions

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[pajarito 0]

You're still providing the basic structure for flight when I say extend the arm wing from the wrist to the ankle and provide added support for your shoulders within the suit. I wouldn't say you were close to crossing over to handgliding at that point. As far as creating some sort of mechanism to elevate the legs to compenstate for CG, I don't see as how that is any different from adding other perfomance enhancing design features into the suits you're jumping and testing now. You're still an integral part of the flying mechanism.

[piisfish 140]

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2. Interference of the wing with reaching the BOC.

Maybe a BOC isn't the most practical method of PC deployment. With a cable and a handle and a spring loaded PC, a deployment mechanism could be rigged from anywhere.

I think that's what Yves Rossy has on his semi rigid wing.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM