Calle 0 #1 August 3, 2004 I was`nt at the hercules boogie myself, but many of my friends speak about at least two incidents, when birdmen did not cutaway ther main and just used their reserve when the shit hit the fan. This resulted, of course, in landing their two canopies. I wonder why? Seems pretty dangerous to me... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #2 August 3, 2004 The fact that they were jumping wingsuits bore no relation to the fact that they didn't cutaway. They would have done the same thing whatever discipline they were doing. Both of these guys are very experienced skydivers and have prepared their actions prior to an emergency occuring. There is no right or wrong course to take in this situation. Either way could just as easily save your life or end it. The is a chance a main with deploy once the tension is released when the reserve is activated but it isn't guaranteed so you can't say "of course". If you really want to have the to-cutaway or not-to-cutaway discussion again, this should really be in Safety and Training. p.s. My planned response to this situation is to cutaway.Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #3 August 3, 2004 You've used the term "this situation" several times without saying what it is. Care to explain? I'm still a bit lost... I'm guessing it's a PC in tow or something?www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calle 0 #4 August 4, 2004 I asked if anyone knew any reason at all not to cutaway. Just saying someone is experienced does not justify this, according to me, stupid action. Yes, there is a chance of the main chute to tangle up in the reserve, so why not cutaway? Just assuming that it will do alright anyway does not sound sane. Do NOT mix up experience with doing the right thing, always. I also heard one of theese incidents ended up in a biplane. The guy tried to flare it, and would have gotten in a nice downplane with himself, if he had done this higher than 3 feet. So once again, does anyone know any REAL reason not to cutaway? (Assuming high alt.) /Blue skies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #5 August 4, 2004 QuoteJust saying someone is experienced does not justify this, according to me, stupid action. Yes it does. Stupid and experienced tend not to be found together. The guys who were in these situations (yes Matt, pilot chutes in tow) have seen and been in situations that have led them to the decisions that they've made. And they are willing to constantly revaluate their decisions. I was talking to Per Flare at the boogie about the fact that he doesn't carry a hook knife. I forget how many line overs he said he has had, something like 5 (3 skydiving, 2 BASE or vice versa) and he's always cleared them or would ride them in (he very lightly loads his base canopy). I may not agree with him but that's experience and I wouldn't disagree with his decision or call him stupid. QuoteDo NOT mix up experience with doing the right thing, always. Do not mix up what you think is doing the right thing with what others think is doing the right thing. QuoteI also heard one of theese incidents ended up in a biplane. The guy tried to flare it, and would have gotten in a nice downplane with himself, if he had done this higher than 3 feet. Yes and he learnt from this! QuoteSo once again, does anyone know any REAL reason not to cutaway? Time. You have nothing above your head and you will die soon. Get something out before impact and don't waste time cutting away. I think these guys had already attempted to clear the PC by changing their attitude or hitting the side of the container, taking up valuable time. Risk of fouling your reserve. A main that releases when the tension is reduced after the reserve deploys could foul your reserve as it passes by. Chance in a million. There are stories of people who have not cutaway their main, deployed a reserve that malfunctioned, and where then able to succesfully deploy their main to save their life.Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #6 August 4, 2004 Calle, you are bringing up an age old debate about whether or not to cutaway a PC in tow. It has been discussed a LOT in the Safety and Training forum. It's like Windows vs Mac, Ford vs Chevy, etc. There really is no universal correct answer. Whether you choose to cutaway or not, pick one method and stick with it. This really isn't a thread for the wingsuit forum."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
misterJ 0 #7 August 5, 2004 hi guys, well here i am as the guy who had the pilot chute in tow. I deployed at 3000 feet and had no extraction, did not even feel like the PC had come out into air. I was in a small and tight position, thumping pack to encourage bag out and increase airflow over back. At 2000 feet i pulled reserve only, mostly aware of altitude and the friends i have lost who have missed that bit. I had a good reserve and the main then came out slowly over next 5 seconds. I saw the main as no threat at all, using the harness to steer ( body angle ) and main toggles to trim. John Le Blanc was with us and he said no problem with what i did - except do not flare, the main turned into the reserve as my feet touched ground - this point will be taken back to uk where we teach students to flare main when we obviously should not. As to right/wrong - there is no defined answer and it is certainly not stupid as calle put it. My experience i agree is irrelevent, the important thing is a firm decision either way at a good altirude - and so here i stll am...:) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DaHippy 0 #8 August 5, 2004 And we are happy to still have you with ous ...and again we enter the vally of death but we shall fear no evil for we are the baddest motherfuckers in the vally. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Calle 0 #9 August 6, 2004 Ok, low altitude. That is one reason not to cutaway. However, only this boogie there where two incidents like this and I`m sure we will see theese things increase in number and occasions. Pulling the reserve only IS dangerous. Sure, it´s better than beeing flat, but the best thing, according to me is never getting in the situation when you have to choose between two bad things. You wrote that you pulled at 3000 ft. That gives you about six seconds (with the wings collapsed, full track even more). I suggest you use a fraction of the time you used to get your main out to cutaway next time. You also wrote that you did not consider the main canopy as a threat. I hope that you don`t get in this situation again, but if you do, have fear of the canopies getting entangled, and think about what happends when you are in a solo downplane that you can`t get rid of. Be prepared. /Blue skies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MickeN 0 #10 August 17, 2004 At least one of them who didn´t cut away is swedish, which means from the same country as yourself(according to your profile), so my suggestion is that you ask this person on the "Skydive-maillist" or in person, why he didn´t cut away...I´ll make sure he reads it, even if I can´t make sure that he´ll answer..... Ta´t lugnt i trafiken! Madelene Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
DaHippy 0 #8 August 5, 2004 And we are happy to still have you with ous ...and again we enter the vally of death but we shall fear no evil for we are the baddest motherfuckers in the vally. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calle 0 #9 August 6, 2004 Ok, low altitude. That is one reason not to cutaway. However, only this boogie there where two incidents like this and I`m sure we will see theese things increase in number and occasions. Pulling the reserve only IS dangerous. Sure, it´s better than beeing flat, but the best thing, according to me is never getting in the situation when you have to choose between two bad things. You wrote that you pulled at 3000 ft. That gives you about six seconds (with the wings collapsed, full track even more). I suggest you use a fraction of the time you used to get your main out to cutaway next time. You also wrote that you did not consider the main canopy as a threat. I hope that you don`t get in this situation again, but if you do, have fear of the canopies getting entangled, and think about what happends when you are in a solo downplane that you can`t get rid of. Be prepared. /Blue skies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MickeN 0 #10 August 17, 2004 At least one of them who didn´t cut away is swedish, which means from the same country as yourself(according to your profile), so my suggestion is that you ask this person on the "Skydive-maillist" or in person, why he didn´t cut away...I´ll make sure he reads it, even if I can´t make sure that he´ll answer..... Ta´t lugnt i trafiken! Madelene Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
