leoholanda 0 #1 August 25, 2004 A beginner question and imagination... Has anyone tried pattern like formations using wingsuit such as diamond or, let's say, delta formations? Is it possible? Some examples I imagined in the rough pictures attached...Leo Holanda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #2 August 25, 2004 We did some stuff like that at the Herc boogie. http://users.utu.fi/vejuto/Hercules2004/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bowie 0 #3 August 25, 2004 We did good at the herc But it is not possible to fly as close as on the pic you posted at least not yet. If you see the video i posted a week a go you will see the closest Big formation ever flown. The Base is very close but as you get a littel distance to the base the tail get very floating. But i think in a few years wee will fly even closer and Bigger Blå Himmel BoBo Wienberg vimeo.com/bowienberg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ikenever 1 #4 August 25, 2004 No, no, no! Not in a few years. Please!!! Leonardo, I like the way you think. It's time for those who are past baby steps to make this 16-way diamond. This is possible now! And yes it can be done close like Leonardo's graphic. Work as a team not an individual. Canopy or people formations, no matter which, you have to fly your slot with your equipment or your body. Think slow-be slow, think small-be small, and just sit and wait until someone else will prove it can be done. Canadian Snowbirds, Navy Blue Angels said it was possible! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #5 August 26, 2004 The diamond 16 way, flat-horizontal, as illustrated, is virtually impossible, because there is not clean, fast air after the second row. If it is flown vertically, it can be done, and will be, fairly soon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #6 August 26, 2004 Norman Kent took an absolutly great shot of the 4 way diamond we built on one of the 17 ways at WFFC this year. I took tail slot even though we were to be flying more of a V, it felt better for me and traffic management to be a tail in a diamond. My copy of the 8*10 should be arriving any day now Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #7 August 26, 2004 Look for an extremely creative design to come out on big ways soon Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #8 August 26, 2004 QuoteThe diamond 16 way, flat-horizontal, as illustrated, is virtually impossible, because there is not clean, fast air after the second row. If it is flown vertically, it can be done, and will be, fairly soon.I accept your challenge! Your burble is above you. The air you're catching when you're directly behind someone (or in this case, about 5 feet behind them) is clean and uninterrupted. See the attached technical illustration. The burble's kinda like that. Apply the burble to each person, and you'll see that no one is in dirty air."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #9 August 26, 2004 Dude, I'm there. I think, from listening to the folks who are way better at the suit thing than me, that the vertical folks must be above and in front of the base to get to clear air. I will mount cameras backwards, suck my gut in, roll my shoulders forward and ARCH to make it happen. I'm all about the records. Let's keep moving toward the slot perfect standard needed for the international records. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ManBird 0 #10 August 26, 2004 The tough part is something like this is the approach. Can't really move in forwards safely/effectively... maybe make the diamond big and separated, and close it up to form it... one row at a time."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ikenever 1 #11 August 26, 2004 Steve, you have the right idea. Now drop row 2 one foot below row 1. Drop row 3 one foot below row below row 2. Drop row 4 one foot below row 3. So on... Everyone gets the good air. If you or I can't fly that slot then maybe someone else can. And as far as the rabbit... Shoot it! Don't chase the rabbit. The point man has to fly their slot and set the pace that EVERYONE can follow. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ManBird 0 #12 August 26, 2004 Yeah, I like it. And maybe "build" the "columns" first. Like in a 9-way diamond, the three down the middle fly in a line. The nose would just fly the course, the center flies about one body length behind and one foot below the nose, and the tail does the same to the center. The pairs of two on either side fly in a line with the same amount of separation. The pilot at the front of pair would lead the trailing pilot to the formation. The last two would sort of be like "stingers", getting in place once the 7-way is built. It'd take some practice, but it's definitely doable. It'd be best to fly it all in one straight line. So maybe make a 135° turn on exit with a decent wait (20s or so) after the last group... 45° off the line of flight without getting too far away."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BGill 0 #13 August 26, 2004 ooh, the complexity, i love it! but as far as records go in the future, , if we want them to be official one day, dont records require docks to be had and the whole formation be connected as a whole? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #14 August 26, 2004 Trust me... you don't want to do a turn once a big way gets starting to build. The point will end up making the turn, the outside poeple have to now accelerate a lot to stay in proximity and the inside people have to pivot. Ran into issues with that on 2 of my jumps at WFFC this year. I even brought it up in the dirt dives on the large ways so that who ever was on the inside would keep further away allowing the point to turn and not instantly drive into the person on their side. Best plan is to exit and fly in a straight line towards home. Hop out about 1-1.5 miles short of the DZ, straight flight home, everyone can build on that and with luck you'll barely overshoot the DZ and have time to set up for a phat 270 hook Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites leoholanda 0 #15 August 26, 2004 I forgot to mention in my first message, that all the time I was talking about doing the whole formation as a whole. I think it's possible, but as soon as I have no practice on formation flying, I have no real idea. If my idea is to be put in practice in the future I WISH I COULD BE THERE... he he he... Also, maybe you guys give me some advises. But maybe not in this topic. I there another topic open for this subject? Quoteooh, the complexity, i love it! but as far as records go in the future, , if we want them to be official one day, dont records require docks to be had and the whole formation be connected as a whole?Leo Holanda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ManBird 0 #16 August 26, 2004 QuoteTrust me... you don't want to do a turn once a big way gets starting to build.I think you misunderstood. The only turn in the whole dive would happen on exit. Flying "in a straight line towards home" requires either a 180° turn (for most exits) and puts everyone over the line of flight (leaving last), or has you flying into jump run (leaving first). And if there's a strong headwind on jump run (leaving last), you have a tailwind on the flight and then you're putting everyone off in the wrong direction. Leaving last, flying at 45° and down/crosswind to jump run with good separation from the last group (15s - 20s) will keep people reasonably close to the DZ, away from the line flight, and would not require any turns for the remainder of the flight. It also doesn't require a strange protocol for anyone. The flocking dive would fit right into normal DZ operations. BJ had a cool deployment sequence idea for something like this. Basically, once it's built, you have people deploy out of the formation. Very cool. Have the tail just pull right out, the have the two in the back fly off for just a second or two and pull. Then the two on the outside fly off and pull while the "new" tail pulls in place. Then the two on the outside fly off and pull, leaving the nose to pull in place. That'd be a cool visual with smoke, and a safe way to stage the breakoff."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Deuce 1 #17 August 27, 2004 Folks, I yanked a mighty 45 degree turn upon emerging from clouds in Sweden, and the ENITIRE group held their slots. I'll try and post some video of it soon, but it can be done. The Other Andy was like a fly in amber in formation. Jari, too. It can be done, and it looks very, very cool. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #18 August 27, 2004 Depends on how close of slots you are flying. When you are flying wing tip gripper docks... its not the best move to make abrupt turns Flying 3-5 foot slots you could probally make a turn and not be an issue. Its also about levels. In the one Herc picture everyone is above you, making a turn is'nt an issue then. If everyone was on level and tucked up super close you would want to go as straight as possible.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites leoholanda 0 #19 August 27, 2004 Hi B.J. Do you think it's possible to be done with docking (i.e. like a RW formation)? Maybe if there was something to hold at each one foot... This way, WS formations could be recorded as WordRecords under the same conditions as RW, that is, do the proposed diamond, and stay in grips for 3 seconds. The biggest problem I see is for those flying skyflyers because their hands are already busy... Well, at least, it was possible in a line 4way, as done in the Herc Boogie 2003 (see attached picture, sorry for the copyrights, it's just for technical discussion). What about trying a 4way diamond first (piece of cake for you experienced), then try the delta 6way, then try the diamond 9way, then the delta 10way, then the diamond 16 way, and so on... QuoteNo, no, no! Not in a few years. Please!!! Leonardo, I like the way you think. It's time for those who are past baby steps to make this 16-way diamond. This is possible now! And yes it can be done close like Leonardo's graphic. Work as a team not an individual. Canopy or people formations, no matter which, you have to fly your slot with your equipment or your body. Think slow-be slow, think small-be small, and just sit and wait until someone else will prove it can be done. Canadian Snowbirds, Navy Blue Angels said it was possible!Leo Holanda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ManBird 0 #20 August 27, 2004 QuoteMaybe if there was something to hold at each one foot.I was recently considering grippers near the ankles on my S3. I'd like to fly some tight, no-contact, larger formations and maybe see if they're necessary."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites whatever 0 #21 August 27, 2004 Hi there. The evolving area of wingsuit RW is sounding like serious fun! What advice do the experienced birdpeople have for a newbie flyer (and lowtimer skydiver), like me, to learn the required skills to become part of these exciting formations in the near enough future? don't get me wrong, I like taking my wingsuit out far and trying to max it all the way to get back on solos, but the ideas in this thread totally rock! cya sam soon to be gone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ManBird 0 #22 August 27, 2004 Like any other form of RW... get on level and then slide in. Do not approach on all axes at the same time! Also, once you're next to someone, be very conscious about keeping your body still while you look around. There is a tendency, especially in a wingsuit, to fly in the direction you are looking. Once you're in your slot. Relax and hold still. Try not to make too many little corrections. You generally don't need them -- it's all psychological. One last tip, if the fall rate is good and you're close, try talking to your buddies. "¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mccordia 74 #23 August 27, 2004 Although docking is possible, I think you need to compare wingsuit flying more to airplane formation-flight then RW formation-falling At any given airshow you probably won't see a group of 17 jet-fighters flighing with 17 grips taken..JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SCARYPERRY 0 #24 August 28, 2004 as skills improve,you will be surprised how close you can fly.On several dives we have had 2 fliers almost locked together from burble,wings about 3 inches apart,and buble held it tight.Had to barrle roll out to break.not sure why,just know that it feels strangeOnly he can be happy,who can make his the present hour,for today he has lived Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouDiamond 1 #25 August 28, 2004 Wingsuit RW with grippers. HMMMMM, sounds like a recipe for some fantastic in air carnage. If you can fly well enough to grasp someones notional "grippers" and not cause them to flail all over the sky you can most definately fly within fingertips proximity and not have to take grips. As neat as it sounds, taking grips on someones ankle/leg like a RW dive is the wrong approach IMO. Fly your slot, fly consistent and you can get to a distance equal to having a grip and not cause potentially dangerous situations if someone shakes the formation. You've seen how bad it gets when someone pulls a formation in RW, in a wingsuit it would be pure carnage. I'm with Perry on this one, just be there and it's all good"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. 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ManBird 0 #10 August 26, 2004 The tough part is something like this is the approach. Can't really move in forwards safely/effectively... maybe make the diamond big and separated, and close it up to form it... one row at a time."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ikenever 1 #11 August 26, 2004 Steve, you have the right idea. Now drop row 2 one foot below row 1. Drop row 3 one foot below row below row 2. Drop row 4 one foot below row 3. So on... Everyone gets the good air. If you or I can't fly that slot then maybe someone else can. And as far as the rabbit... Shoot it! Don't chase the rabbit. The point man has to fly their slot and set the pace that EVERYONE can follow. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #12 August 26, 2004 Yeah, I like it. And maybe "build" the "columns" first. Like in a 9-way diamond, the three down the middle fly in a line. The nose would just fly the course, the center flies about one body length behind and one foot below the nose, and the tail does the same to the center. The pairs of two on either side fly in a line with the same amount of separation. The pilot at the front of pair would lead the trailing pilot to the formation. The last two would sort of be like "stingers", getting in place once the 7-way is built. It'd take some practice, but it's definitely doable. It'd be best to fly it all in one straight line. So maybe make a 135° turn on exit with a decent wait (20s or so) after the last group... 45° off the line of flight without getting too far away."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BGill 0 #13 August 26, 2004 ooh, the complexity, i love it! but as far as records go in the future, , if we want them to be official one day, dont records require docks to be had and the whole formation be connected as a whole? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #14 August 26, 2004 Trust me... you don't want to do a turn once a big way gets starting to build. The point will end up making the turn, the outside poeple have to now accelerate a lot to stay in proximity and the inside people have to pivot. Ran into issues with that on 2 of my jumps at WFFC this year. I even brought it up in the dirt dives on the large ways so that who ever was on the inside would keep further away allowing the point to turn and not instantly drive into the person on their side. Best plan is to exit and fly in a straight line towards home. Hop out about 1-1.5 miles short of the DZ, straight flight home, everyone can build on that and with luck you'll barely overshoot the DZ and have time to set up for a phat 270 hook Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leoholanda 0 #15 August 26, 2004 I forgot to mention in my first message, that all the time I was talking about doing the whole formation as a whole. I think it's possible, but as soon as I have no practice on formation flying, I have no real idea. If my idea is to be put in practice in the future I WISH I COULD BE THERE... he he he... Also, maybe you guys give me some advises. But maybe not in this topic. I there another topic open for this subject? Quoteooh, the complexity, i love it! but as far as records go in the future, , if we want them to be official one day, dont records require docks to be had and the whole formation be connected as a whole?Leo Holanda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #16 August 26, 2004 QuoteTrust me... you don't want to do a turn once a big way gets starting to build.I think you misunderstood. The only turn in the whole dive would happen on exit. Flying "in a straight line towards home" requires either a 180° turn (for most exits) and puts everyone over the line of flight (leaving last), or has you flying into jump run (leaving first). And if there's a strong headwind on jump run (leaving last), you have a tailwind on the flight and then you're putting everyone off in the wrong direction. Leaving last, flying at 45° and down/crosswind to jump run with good separation from the last group (15s - 20s) will keep people reasonably close to the DZ, away from the line flight, and would not require any turns for the remainder of the flight. It also doesn't require a strange protocol for anyone. The flocking dive would fit right into normal DZ operations. BJ had a cool deployment sequence idea for something like this. Basically, once it's built, you have people deploy out of the formation. Very cool. Have the tail just pull right out, the have the two in the back fly off for just a second or two and pull. Then the two on the outside fly off and pull while the "new" tail pulls in place. Then the two on the outside fly off and pull, leaving the nose to pull in place. That'd be a cool visual with smoke, and a safe way to stage the breakoff."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #17 August 27, 2004 Folks, I yanked a mighty 45 degree turn upon emerging from clouds in Sweden, and the ENITIRE group held their slots. I'll try and post some video of it soon, but it can be done. The Other Andy was like a fly in amber in formation. Jari, too. It can be done, and it looks very, very cool. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #18 August 27, 2004 Depends on how close of slots you are flying. When you are flying wing tip gripper docks... its not the best move to make abrupt turns Flying 3-5 foot slots you could probally make a turn and not be an issue. Its also about levels. In the one Herc picture everyone is above you, making a turn is'nt an issue then. If everyone was on level and tucked up super close you would want to go as straight as possible.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leoholanda 0 #19 August 27, 2004 Hi B.J. Do you think it's possible to be done with docking (i.e. like a RW formation)? Maybe if there was something to hold at each one foot... This way, WS formations could be recorded as WordRecords under the same conditions as RW, that is, do the proposed diamond, and stay in grips for 3 seconds. The biggest problem I see is for those flying skyflyers because their hands are already busy... Well, at least, it was possible in a line 4way, as done in the Herc Boogie 2003 (see attached picture, sorry for the copyrights, it's just for technical discussion). What about trying a 4way diamond first (piece of cake for you experienced), then try the delta 6way, then try the diamond 9way, then the delta 10way, then the diamond 16 way, and so on... QuoteNo, no, no! Not in a few years. Please!!! Leonardo, I like the way you think. It's time for those who are past baby steps to make this 16-way diamond. This is possible now! And yes it can be done close like Leonardo's graphic. Work as a team not an individual. Canopy or people formations, no matter which, you have to fly your slot with your equipment or your body. Think slow-be slow, think small-be small, and just sit and wait until someone else will prove it can be done. Canadian Snowbirds, Navy Blue Angels said it was possible!Leo Holanda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #20 August 27, 2004 QuoteMaybe if there was something to hold at each one foot.I was recently considering grippers near the ankles on my S3. I'd like to fly some tight, no-contact, larger formations and maybe see if they're necessary."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
whatever 0 #21 August 27, 2004 Hi there. The evolving area of wingsuit RW is sounding like serious fun! What advice do the experienced birdpeople have for a newbie flyer (and lowtimer skydiver), like me, to learn the required skills to become part of these exciting formations in the near enough future? don't get me wrong, I like taking my wingsuit out far and trying to max it all the way to get back on solos, but the ideas in this thread totally rock! cya sam soon to be gone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #22 August 27, 2004 Like any other form of RW... get on level and then slide in. Do not approach on all axes at the same time! Also, once you're next to someone, be very conscious about keeping your body still while you look around. There is a tendency, especially in a wingsuit, to fly in the direction you are looking. Once you're in your slot. Relax and hold still. Try not to make too many little corrections. You generally don't need them -- it's all psychological. One last tip, if the fall rate is good and you're close, try talking to your buddies. "¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 74 #23 August 27, 2004 Although docking is possible, I think you need to compare wingsuit flying more to airplane formation-flight then RW formation-falling At any given airshow you probably won't see a group of 17 jet-fighters flighing with 17 grips taken..JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SCARYPERRY 0 #24 August 28, 2004 as skills improve,you will be surprised how close you can fly.On several dives we have had 2 fliers almost locked together from burble,wings about 3 inches apart,and buble held it tight.Had to barrle roll out to break.not sure why,just know that it feels strangeOnly he can be happy,who can make his the present hour,for today he has lived Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #25 August 28, 2004 Wingsuit RW with grippers. HMMMMM, sounds like a recipe for some fantastic in air carnage. If you can fly well enough to grasp someones notional "grippers" and not cause them to flail all over the sky you can most definately fly within fingertips proximity and not have to take grips. As neat as it sounds, taking grips on someones ankle/leg like a RW dive is the wrong approach IMO. Fly your slot, fly consistent and you can get to a distance equal to having a grip and not cause potentially dangerous situations if someone shakes the formation. You've seen how bad it gets when someone pulls a formation in RW, in a wingsuit it would be pure carnage. I'm with Perry on this one, just be there and it's all good"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
