Thoughts on wingsuit training.....not just mine

[VectorBoy 0]

What do you think about it?


Is it adequate? Is it accessible? Is it keeping up with the real world needs of the skydiving community? Is it safe?
This goes for both the cottage industry off-shoot of the manufacturers and the old school mentorship style.
How much should the manufacturer be involved or should they just stick with R&D, fabrication, product support and refinement and distribution?
Is there a problem now that requires the higher powers to step in and certify training to levels similar to AFF, tandem and coach ratings. This would, by regulation, standardize the content of cottage industry program and eliminate the ability to mentor.

As it stands now for the commercially available wingsuits. One manufacturer recommends a minimum of 500 jumps or a very current 200 jumps with the use of an approved training sub contractor. They provide the list of the contractors.
A second company recommends a minimum of 500 jumps period, and leaves it at that.
A third recommends training, provides the contact for three facilities that provide it and makes no mention of jump numbers in any way.
(I gathered the above info via their respective web pages and it may be incorrect. Feel free to correct me on it. )

What needs changing? If at all.

Glen

[riggerrob 643]

Manufacturers should stick to production along with a bit of R&D.
It will be amusing to see if big name jumpsuit manufacturers (i.e. Tony and Bev) will enter the wingsuit market. It will be equally interesting to see if current wingsuit manufacturers can survive that level of competition.
There is little need for national aero clubs (i.e. CSPA) to step in now. It will another few years before CSPA's Coaching Committee has the experience to draft a wing suit syllabus..
In the long run, I expect national aero clubs to take over the whole concept of wingsuit instruction/coaching.
This attitude came out of a conversation with a CSPA Course Conductor (Coach, IAD and PFF), who is also one of the first certifed Birdman Instructors in Western Canada.

Yes, the whole concept of wingsuit instruction will gradually shift from manufactures to national aero clubs, but the transition will take a few years.

[vesatoro 0]

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Yes, the whole concept of wingsuit instruction will gradually shift from manufactures to national aero clubs, but the transition will take a few years.

We in Finland have already done it this way from 2001. The starting point was, that before 2000 one was to have more than 500 skydives before jumping any kind of wingsuit. The Finnish Aviation Association (FAA) and Parachuting Committee felt a need for this barrier to be lowered and made up a program for wingsuit instruction that our Civil Aviation Administration could approve. It consists of a manual I have written based on BM manual, my own experiences and personal communication with Jari. We also have our FAA instructors that basically are BMI's that know the Finnish regulations. This way all jumpers >250 jumps (with some extra details) are able to join the flock and this goes regardles of wingsuit manufacturers. If someone wants any details, I'll be pleased to answer :)

Vesa
BMCI
Finnish AA Parachuting Safety and training committee
#845

"Fear is the path to the Dark side"
(Master Yoda)

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

My thoughts, and I am going to directly relate them to another discipline: Tandems. There, for good reason in my opinion, is a 500 jump minimum and a minimum time-in-sport requirement in order to obtain that rating. It's 800 in the UK! The funny thing about it is that, also in my opinion, tandems are INCREDIBLY simple. So much so that the US Military allows applicable units to send their personnel for ratings with 200 jumps. More to the point, they send people to their tandem BUNDLE course with as little as 200 jumps. That's 500 pounds of oil drum strapped to the front of you, kiddies. What's the difference you ask? Liability, pure and simple. The military assumes the liability for their own personnel and you simply can't sue anyone if shit goes wrong.

Tandem manufacturers make gear to SELL. Still, no, they will absolutely not sell "regular", non-rated skydivers tandem rigs and no, they won't qualify you, as a civilian to jump their rigs unless you have 500 jumps or more and three years in the sport. Once again, I find tandem jumping incredibly simple. The manufacturers have training certifications in-house because they want to make sure you have the minimum talent needed to safely use their equipment. Established wingsuit manufacturers are no different. BirdMan came up with a program because they knew it needed to be done in order to "grease the skids" to the general skydiving public. All old skydivers remembered was that 95% of "original" barnstorming birdmen died with their homemade contraptions and the only "modern" wingsuit guy, Patrick DeGuardon (who had a bazillion jumps) also frapped in one of his own design. The ONLY way it was going to get accepted into mainstream jumping again was to show, in no uncertain terms, that we had our shit together. There was a dream, then a mission, then the reality of what we have today. Without that plan and execution, I can guarantee that wingsuiting would still be a very-fringe activity.

Bitch if you like, but without Jari and Robi's plan for a safe and fun future you would not even be contemplating such things today. The standard is set.

Peace,

Chuck Blue
BMCI

[VectorBoy 0]

Sorry if I tend to sound defensive at the establishment sometimes.

I don't do tandems so my perception of the TM rating is as an outsider. I've heard from TMs that it is the most dangerous form of skydiving. They make jokes about four limbs, four handles and a pilot chute in tow. And like you said it is a gear specific rating by the manufacturer you cannot bypass getting to use the equiptment.
I don't doubt for a second that if someone is performing the task of tandem master then they have gone and got the rating for the specific rig in question and there was no way to bypass the process. Just like I doubt that I can call up Jay Stokes to get an AFF rating or Sandy Reid to get a riggers rating without paying my dues to include attending the course and being evaluated on the skills those rating require.
I find there are three types of background for those people that we call BMIs.

1 The people that have been either with the company ( bird-man)or in another company (canopy-container-base gear) with a close working relationship with bird-man and Jari and were doing first jump courses and product promotion from the early days. A long standing history.

2 Individuals that have attended and been evaluated, in person, in the BMI course, conducted by any of the BMCIs .

3 Other individuals that have only called or requested via Email to be placed on the list without any evaluation of skills whatsoever.

Being in the last category doesn't make any guarantee as to that applicants suitability to conduct anything on behalf of bird-man in regards to wingsuits other than promotion and sales. The only thing it does prove is the applicant is an effective telemarketer. Trust me I know the process has to justify nothing to me but if we are going to throw around the words of liability, I'm sure legal consul would see things differently.

My grief does manifest itself when some demean the skills and processes of others ( lets say outside the establishment) when the comments come from someone who has themselves never been evaluated by the establishment. Do you see the hypocrisy?
To add to the confusion other manufacturers do things differently. I do believe that the manufacturer has a right and the final say in how their gear should be trained on. If a rating is required it should be a standard process.

I'm curious to know what other people think. From all countries and governing bodies and that have the familiarity with wingsuits. What should be required?

My thoughts on the matter were that nothing is broken, things are going smooth IMO, the governing body doesn't have to step in and regulate. Mine, the USPA, is all about self regulation until prompted to enact more of it as a result of an immediate need in the field. For the life of me I can not predict how the uspa will embrace wingsuiting real needs. Based on your comments I do see a closer parallel between wingsuits and tandem gear where before I saw very little similarity and my opinion was fixed against it. Now I'm torn.

[VectorBoy 0]

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Manufacturers should stick to production along with a bit of R&D.
___________________________________________________
> I completely agree Rob, the suit Jari sold me last month does nothing to secure that company's future market share. It just helped pay last months bills. Only the fresh new design that everyone is waiting and salivating over or improvements in production and quality control will keep the company in the lead and inversely around to help with product support and repairs, in years to come, for the suit I bought last month.
____________________________________________________

It will be amusing to see if big name jumpsuit manufacturers (i.e. Tony and Bev) will enter the wingsuit market. It will be equally interesting to see if current wingsuit manufacturers can survive that level of competition.

Do you think they would be crazy enough to divert attention from higher volume production of just suits to enter the world of lower volume, labor intensive, niche discipline products?
I believe that those people that today are involved in the production of wingsuits are passionate about it!..... on a crazy level.

Or they are just crazy.

[bodypilot1 0]

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That's 500 pounds of oil drum strapped to the front of you, kiddies.

You mean like this!

I took this after I trained some PJ's to do tandems, and yes, they only had 200 jumps.....crazy MoFo's if ya ask me!

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[ManBird 0]

Drop zones and governing bodies always have the final say on what goes with wingsuit activity. Manufacturers can aid these parties in establishing policies for flying and training. These parties may accept these recommended policies as is, modify them, or deny them completely. BirdMan has been the most effective in establishing acceptable guidelines.

I realize that the ultimate agenda here is render the BMI title ineffective. However, it's following a model that's proven itself in skydiving.

Using the tandem analogy -- a non-USPA DZ that has tandem gear can probably get away with sending whuffos up with unrated skydivers, no problem. They might never have an incident, but it's pretty sketchy, eh?

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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[LouDiamond 1]

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That's 500 pounds of oil drum strapped to the front of you, kiddies.

You mean like this!

I took this after I trained some PJ's to do tandems, and yes, they only had 200 jumps.....crazy MoFo's if ya ask me!

YEP, thats what the deal is. A nice big cylindrical concrete form with a top and bottom. In the beginning the plywood on the bottom used to be square and it made for some interesting rides. Imagine a 500 lb weight spinning around underneath you uncontrolably, not a lot of fun. Now, the weakest link in that chain is the human body. Landings are interesting too, when 500lbs hits the ground before you do you can bet your gonna stop wheather you flare or not

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[bodypilot1 0]

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YEP, thats what the deal is. A nice big cylindrical concrete form with a top and bottom. In the beginning the plywood on the bottom used to be square and it made for some interesting rides. Imagine a 500 lb weight spinning around underneath you uncontrolably, not a lot of fun. Now, the weakest link in that chain is the human body. Landings are interesting too, when 500lbs hits the ground before you do you can bet your gonna stop wheather you flare or not

The best was after I had released them from my supervision to do tandems with a passenger they also got to "ride" the barrels out the door after that. We did an drouge IAD and they rode the barrels for about 1000ft and then let the barrel go, and your right about the human being the weakest part of the link , they were stuck in the middle as the barrel accelerated to the end of the tether.
The landings were also entertaining to say the least, when they'd forget to put the tether to the side with one leg and leave it BETWEEN their legs!

Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[VectorBoy 0]

I realize that the ultimate agenda here is render the BMI title ineffective. However, it's following a model that's proven itself in skydiving.

[ManBird 0]

I don't think the issue "certified" instructors has is with mentor-style instruction, it's with unqualified mentors. Even before I was a BMI, BirdMan sent new birds my way. I'd flown with people down in Florida, lurked some FFCs, and got the "acceptable" rating

I'm all for mentorship-style instruction. Personally, I just like to verify, especially in my neighborhood, that the mentor isn't teaching anything that's potentially dangerous. And it happens. I've seen a lot people with bad practices they learned from their local experienced wingsuit person. Everything ranging from the minor -- bad body position (in flight and during the pull), bad cable routing, etc -- to the major -- routing cables around handles, and even unzipping the arm wings BEFORE pulling on every jump!

Yes, there are (or were) some that scowl at these mentors. I, personally, prefer to help out. These guys and gals are going to instruct their local birds no matter what. The best thing to do is hook up with them and get the right info to them. The official certifications may eventually become widespread enough to not even have these discussions. Ask people who have been around about the early days of AFF. Same deal. There were a LOT of people giving AFF courses without AFF ratings. It just took time.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[Cloudi 0]

3 Other individuals that have only called or requested via Email to be placed on the list without any evaluation of skills whatsoever.

Being in the last category doesn't make any guarantee as to that applicants suitability to conduct anything on behalf of bird-man in regards to wingsuits other than promotion and sales. The only thing it does prove is the applicant is an effective telemarketer.

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I simply can’t take it anymore. What the heck are you talking about? I’ve sat quietly for several weeks while a few people have argued back and forth on the merit of BMI’s. Your statement above is just complete BS and I can’t believe you would spout it on a public forum. Do you really think you are “encouraging more Birds into the flock” with comments like that?

The only people who are added to the BMI list are those who have been approved of by Jari, Robert, Chuck, Scott, and the few other BMCI’s out there. If someone made the list and didn’t have to go through the course, his/her knowledge, experience, and teaching technique was obviously already there. I would imagine if Jari or Robert considered someone to be capable without the course, they would know better than anyone and they wouldn’t allow it unless that person had truly shown his/her ability! No one just calls up and gets put on the list. If you know something I don’t, please enlighten me. I think I know what you meant to say: We have given Dealerships to skydiving related businesses who aren’t BMI’s because:

1. There is a BMI at their dropzone.
2. The dealer himself/herself is scheduled to attend a BMI course in the near future.

No one is preventing “mentors” from giving some pointers. All they are saying is that it isn’t always the best situation for someone completely new to wingsuits to learn this way, especially someone on the lower end of the 200-500 jump spectrum. I have enough jumps to fly a wingsuit and could learn from the best BMI around—Jari. I also have enough sense to know that I’m not current enough (because I work at the office all the damn time!) to take on a new discipline which is truly meant for skilled, experienced, current, and “heads up” skydivers. I do qualify for the “heads up” part. Do you really feel comfortable putting a wingsuit on someone and giving them some instruction if they might be exactly like me, except with a huge, hungry, reckless skydiving ego? Maybe you do. If that’s the case—who are we piddly manufacturers to tell you anything? You obviously have the whole skydiving thing in your pocket. That’s fantastic. Just remember that you could be sending a message to others who don’t have it all figured out and who really have no business passing out wingsuits or advice, that it’s ok. You are also sending a message to skydivers who don’t fly wingsuits that we don’t care about anyone else in the sky. We’ll just put a wingsuit on whoever wants to fly it and everyone else will just have to stay the hell out of the way. I’m one of those skydivers, and, I have to say, the thought terrifies me. I am fortunate enough to jump at a dropzone where that is unlikely to happen because there is usually no less than one BMI around at any given time. I realize now just how fortunate I am (not to mention that I am surrounded by world class skydivers who don’t hesitate to answer my stupid questions and are truly wonderful people!). Should I be cautious about visiting other dropzones where it is common practice for wingsuit flyers who learned from “mentors” to be in the air above me (or in my airspace if they really don’t know what they’re doing)?

BMI’s receive training on the correct information regarding wingsuits (not what they heard from some 20-flight wonder), they learn the best way to pass along that information (thus the “instructor” in BMI), and they have set aside their time and money to be educated. Anyone can learn along the way, but BMI’s offer the most current and accurate information. BirdMan is a new breed in the skydiving world. We not only put out the products, but we actually give a shit about the people who buy them. We want them to learn the right things the first time, not have to re-learn to be rid of bad habits they got from someone who had good intentions. We also don’t want them dead. It’s not about money, it’s about Jari’s passion for flight, his dream of sharing his passion with as many skydivers as he can, and about making it as safe, challenging, and, well—as “flocking” fun as possible. The BMI course fee is to help cover the time, transportation, lodging, materials, and expertise of the person who traveled to conduct the course. Jari has been known to waive the fee to locals: when he has the available time and is at our home DZ and not traveling the world. Why wouldn’t he give special treatment to people at his home dropzone if he has the time? He's the President--he can do that. BirdMan has never been and never will be the “wingsuit police.” Obviously we are interested in pushing the envelope too! I think the mere fact that skydivers are able to fly wingsuits and live to tell about it is a testament to that. BirdMan is looking to the future all the time. Not only for our benefit, but for the benefit of all who wish wingsuit flying to grow and succeed. We welcome competition and you should too. It always works out best for the consumer when there is, you know.
No one is stopping you from doing what you’re doing, yet you are the one who can’t stop bringing it up! Come to DeLand in November or Eloy during the Holiday Boogie, “sit in” on the BMI course (I doubt you would be discouraged from doing this or have to pay if you sit quietly, observe, and don’t expect the BMI rating when it’s finished). I promise you will learn some things and maybe you might decide it’s worth the money after all. If not, oh well. At least you were willing to set aside the time to learn and those who you “mentor” will be the better for it.

I hope you understand what I’m saying. I’m not flaming you or anyone else and you’re opinion is important. Diversity is part of what makes our sport what it has been, what it is today, and what it will grow to be in the future. We may never agree, but if we can make an effort to understand another opinion, we are making steps in the right direction. I have written this as a skydiver, not as a representative of BirdMan, although obviously my views and feelings on this subject are influenced by my job to some extent. I only wish the best for anyone who dreams of flying as I someday wish to learn…when I know I’m ready, not when someone else says I am.

Now, can we put this dead horse to rest?

Sincerely,
Kim Pothuisje

~Yes, I do feel much better now.

Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

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[voodew1 0]

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I am fortunate enough to jump at a dropzone where that is unlikely to happen because there is usually no less than one BMI around at any given time.

This is a good point most of us don't have that option nor do we have the money to pay for plane fare and lodging to bring a BMI to our state where there aren't any BMIs active, to make money at our boogies. I am talking about Texas.

There are mixed feelings toward the BMIs who make themselves available to go to big giant boogies but can't get the support from the company they represent to come to the not so giant boogies to promote the product.

I don't think anyone who is taking up new flyers would have a problem if a BMI came to town to teach new flyers--it would be welcomed and I would love to sit in on a BMI class but I cannot leave the DZ where I work as an AFFI to fly across the country to sit in on a class.

As for the BMI course I would be glad to pay the $300 for a BMCI to come and instruct me to be a better instructor---I will not pay his airfare and lodging to do it---that is bullshit---I didn't do it when an AFF course director and evaulator came to my town and I damn sure wouldn't do it for a BMI rating.

THIS IS WHAT WE ARE ALL PISSED OFF ABOUT!!

Birdman has dozens of closet instructors promoting the product and we are looked down on as hacks---Maybe Birdman Inc should start a tour of states without active BMIs and try to get some active ones.
You know who is teaching and where we jump maybe Birdman should come to us the closet promoters of the wingsuit.

WE ALL WANT THE SAME -- MORE FLYERS TO JUMP WITH EVERY WEEKEND---SAFELY!!!!!!!

Jason "Voodew"Weisberg
closet wingsuit instructor and AFFI
Skydive Temple
Texas USA

And I feel better 2

edit--As for the BMIs that were handed a rating I have no knowledge--

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[Cloudi 0]

If you would like to calm down, re-read my post, and detach yourself from speaking before thinking...you might see that what you just "screamed" about was actually addressed. I'm not disagreeing with any of your opinions. If you really read what I said, you can plainly see that. Please don't take what I wrote out of context. It doesn't really express your opinion in the intelligent manner I'm sure you want. I wasn't arguing with VectorBoy, and I won't argue with you either.

Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

[LouDiamond 1]

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There are mixed feelings toward the BMIs who make themselves available to go to big giant boogies but can't get the support from the company they represent to come to the not so giant boogies to promote the product.

I don't know where you or Vectorboy are getting your information but it is apparent even to a blind man what the agenda here is. I understand your frustration Jason but I think it is ill founded in misinformation and partial truths. I am positive that if you delt with anyone at BirdMan directly you would not feel that they do not support the BMI's. Ask a BMI if BirdMan supports them if you don't believe me. It is the BMI's choice wheather or not they want to go to a particular boogie, not BirdMan's. Regardless of the size of the event, BirdMan will support any BMI who asks for assitance with an event if the resources are available. Proper planning ahead of time is critical as not only do resources have to be managed but word has to passed to BMI's who have to arrange their real lives around an event in order to attend.

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As for the BMI course I would be glad to pay the $300 for a BMCI to come and instruct me to be a better instructor---I will not pay his airfare and lodging to do it---that is bullshit---I didn't do it when an AFF course director and evaulator came to my town and I damn sure wouldn't do it for a BMI rating.

THIS IS WHAT WE ARE ALL PISSED OFF ABOUT!!

Then you have been pissed off for the wrong reason. Some where along the way you either misunderstood how things work or the 2nd hand information passed to you was not complete. Cloudi explained how this works in her post above, which answers what the $300 goes towards.

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CLOUDI WROTE: The BMI course fee is to help cover the time, transportation, lodging, materials, and expertise of the person who traveled to conduct the course.

That $300 you just said your willing to pay goes toward what you also said you wouldn't pay for.In some circumstances the fees don't cover all of the expenses and compromises have to be made between the 2 parties to help defer some of the expense. This is where people have opened their spare rooms and provided home cooked meals to help keep costs at a minimum. The BMI course runs on a very lean budget so that those qualified can easily afford it.

With that said, if you request a BMI to come to an event just to spread the sickness to the falling masses you still have to help him get there somehow. BirdMan has no control or say over which events BMI's can/cannot go to, it's the individuals choice. BirdMan simply serves as an information conduit to the BMIs on available events or people looking for instruction.


As for the people who were given instructor status before the standardized course was established by myself, chuck, Kim G. and Jari. I know Glen has issue with the way this was done in the past but Jari was the only one able to give someone an instructor rating at that time and I will not attempt to second guess his decisions. He felt that the person was qualified to instruct at that point in time. Like all new things, this too has evolved and we recognized some of the shortcomings and have erradicated them. The majority of the people who actively instruct, that didn't go through the standardized course, have either sat in on one of the standardized courses or have modified their teaching curriculum and techniques to that of the standardized course. Frankly, I am tired of the whining about this one issue. Get over it, it is something that happened in the past and doesn't happen anymore, the horse is dead. Lets focus on what lies ahead of us and not behind us.

I have no problem with mentors teaching newbies where there is no BMI available if the mentor learned from a BMI. I have seen too many self proclaimed mentors and people trained by these "mentors" who were fucked up like Hogan's goat. They end up with bad habits,poor flying skills and in many cases are a safety concern to themselves and those around them. We all want more flyers to flock with but I nor any of the other BMIs will compromise on safety and /or training just to have more bodies in the sky.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[ManBird 0]

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Birdman has dozens of closet instructors promoting the product and we are looked down on as hacks

You aren't. Seriously, you aren't. When we offer up info to "uncertified" instructors, we're not being condescending. We're genuinely trying to help. And be realistic, BMIs have a ton of info, and a lot of us (no, not all) have a LOT of wingsuit flights and a LOT of real world experience with a LOT of students.

Before I was a BMI, I wanted to get other birds in the air, so I got on the phone with BirdMan and got great pointers. They understand that BMIs are not at every drop zone, and are willing to help the most qualified potential mentors and/or give info to S&TAs. If they aren't available (being a very busy company and all), shoot your questions and your number to the more experienced BMIs and I guarantee at least one of us answer your questions -- even get on the phone with you.

That goes for everyone out there. The problem is that you really don't know how much information you're missing until you've learned from the best and taken many different people from many different planes at many different drop zones, and had students get into many different situations.

I used to be super anti-BMI (and it's well documented). Even then, BirdMan was willing to offer me info I needed to get people in the air, and recommended me to potential new birds.

It's just not fun to be against the organization that has done the most for modern wingsuit flight (and made your suit).

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Get over it, it is something that happened in the past and doesn't happen anymore, the horse is dead.

Yeah, that.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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[voodew1 0]

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Maybe Birdman Inc should start a tour of states without active BMIs and try to get some active ones.
You know who is teaching and where we jump maybe Birdman should come to us the closet promoters of the wingsuit.

WE ALL WANT THE SAME -- MORE FLYERS TO JUMP WITH EVERY WEEKEND---SAFELY!!!!!!!

I think that this says it all -- I am not trying to be anti-anything I am raising awareness that if you don't jump at Eloy, the east coast or the west coast your not going to be catered to.
Look where the BMI courses are held Florida, Eloy, California last I checked there were a few more states in the US.

Wingsuits are very popular overseas probably due to a few common reasons
First money is a little more freely spent there, but more importantly due to a smaller region and more wingsuit instructors. If the same is to happen in the US then we need wingsuit instructors that are willing to travel within reason (say once a month) in their state instead of a dozen for the whole US. Maybe Birdman Inc should pull up its instructor list and first see what states don't have a BMI, the size of the state(maybe 2 or more would be better), and if the state has a BMI are the actively promoting wingsuit flight(as some of the dealers/BMIs don't do anything to promote).
I am not asking to be given courses for free or even discounted as $300 is not a lot. I am asking to be catered to - bring the course to us don't make us come to you-we have been selling suits for Birdman!

And you may have to wave the minimum of 3 for a course because it probably just isn't going to happen, yet the future company reward would be great.

Just my thoughts to further flight--I would like responses addressing the issues I have brought up not making excuses why it can't happen but what can be done to make it happen.

Texas is a big state to only have about 6 wingsuit owners (4 more on order)

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[Tonto 1]

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Wingsuits are very popular overseas probably due to a few common reasons
First money is a little more freely spent there, but more importantly due to a smaller region and more wingsuit instructors.

I think you're a long way off the mark with this.

I'm in Africa. If you think money is more freely spent here.. then you don't watch the Discovery channel enough. There is not ONE BMI in Africa. My closest BMI is Australia, Europe or the USA. Since the USA also has a few BMCI's, that's where I'm heading to do my BMI course - Just like I had to go to the USA to do my AFFICC all those years ago. I know from experience that what I will learn, whether or not I pass the course, will benefit MANY jumpers here for MANY years to come.

In the overall scheme of things, the price/time difference for you to get to Florida or Eloy or California is nothing compared to what I'm going to spend - and I think I'm getting a good deal. So there are 4 suits in Texas? Over the last 6 months I've built our flock to over 20 suits at our DZ - with another order about to be placed.

If you want to make something happen - you will - and Birdman Inc will be right off your wingtip to help keep it safe, and your customers happy.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[LouDiamond 1]

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bring the course to us don't make us come to you....................And you may have to wave the minimum of 3 for a course because it probably just isn't going to happen

That's how we usually do it. You call, we fall. It makes it easier and more practical for everyone involved if it happens at an event where everyone involved plans on being in attendance to start with. Which again requires prior coordination on both sides.However, if thats not possible we do go to peoples locations at their request. I was slated to go to Wa. State to teach a instructor course for Steve's friends awhile back and Chuck even went to Canada so location is not a factor. What is a factor is that we have a minimum of 3 per class for good reason. First it spreads the expense of travel,etc,etc, across several people and keeps the overall cost down. Second it ensures that the instructor student ratio is maintained so everyone feels like they had adequate time with the instructor and the material(every try to drink from a fire hose?). Understand that if you want an instructor course taught to less than 3 people it's gonna cost more per individual because all the same expenses getting there still exist. The most important thing is that you let BirdMan know you want an instructor course run at your event/location with adequate time in advance so that it can be coordinated for. I cannot tell you how many times Chuck and I have planned on teaching a course only to have it cancelled/postponed at the last minute because a student backed out for whatever reason. We absolutely cater to those who want an instructor course but people have to let us know they want a course, understand the requirements involved and be willing to commit the time and money. Call us and we will come, I guarantee it.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Your impressions concerning how boogies are put together and how organizers are compensated are way off base. You want Max Cohn or Dave Brown at your boogie? You better have $300 per DAY plus transportation and lodging. Same for Guy Wright, Ponce or any of the "name" RW guys. Think I'm kidding? Oh yeah, add free jumps for the duration of the event to that list.

You know what? I skydive for a living. I haul meat, do AFF, dispatch SL students when they wander up, teach FJC's. I have been skydiving for nearly 24 years. I also fly anywhere people want me and organize wingsuit stuff, teach first flight courses, and run BMI and canopy courses. I am VERY reasonable; just ask our Canadian brothers. This keeps me quite busy. You need to understand that BirdMan does not pay any of us a salary to instruct. For boogies and courses, we get paid our travel out of the money we make doing FFCs and BMI course fees. If it's a trip where I am not likely to at least break even then you will likely not get me. If you can't promote a course and get three candidates to show up at your dropzone, then no, you will not get me there to teach only you. That said, there are plenty of opportunities around the country to get to a course. Is it really that insurmountable for you to drive or fly to Deland or Eloy? Come to my home dropzone here in NC and I will train you as well, minus the three-candidate minimum. Hell, the next course in Deland will be run DURING THE WEEK. I know you aren't doing any AFF in Temple, TX during the week. Likewise, Glen was sitting right there at Eloy last year (or was it two years ago) when we ran the BMI course during the holiday boogie. His excuse for not attending? "Well, Bill is on the DZ more than I am so what's the point?" By posting all of these "anti establishment" threads, he has clearly demonstrated to me that he missed the boat and should have attended the damn class! You are my boy, Glen, but this shit is out of control. I told you then that I thought it was a mistake that you did not attend.

If you don't think that you paid that AFF course director's travel to and from your course you are seriously mistaken. Your AFF course fee was determined by the number of candidates who participated and I can promise you that your DZ paid for that course director's lodging or else someone on the DZ put him up. You also paid that guy more money if he was present for a pre-course. Like me, those guys are independant subcontractors when it comes to running courses and they simply must make a living. Once again, if you want a course ran (and free organizing and canopy coaching thrown in for shits and grins), then get three people together and give me a call. Please do not make the mistake, though, of scheduling me for a weekend and then calling me to say you don't have the people anymore; you can ask Steve Crawford how those conversations turn out.

As you have never sat in on a BMI course, you obviously have no idea what some candidates bring to the table. You simply would not believe some of the gross rigging errors we see from these supposed "expert" wingsuit pilots. I have never, not once, taught a BMI course where everyone didn't say they learned a significant amount. Likewise, I have never taught a course where at least one "expert" wasn't completely flabergasted that he had been doing something very wrong on every single jump.

I am pretty sure that every single side of this debate has been covered at least twice in these recent threads, so unless anyone has something different to say, then please hold your tongue.

Chuck Blue
D-12501
AFF/TM/SL-I, BMCI, PRO

[VectorBoy 0]

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I simply can’t take it anymore. Your statement above is just complete BS and I can’t believe you would spout it on a public forum.
We have given Dealerships to skydiving related businesses who aren’t BMI’s because:

1. There is a BMI at their dropzone.
2. The dealer himself/herself is scheduled to attend a BMI course in the near future.
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>Kim you have to justify nothing to me. Most of the people are in the first category, skilled, respected and above reproach. If you say that the third category doesn't exist , thats fine too.

But while we are at it do think I can get a tandem rating this way?
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No one is preventing “mentors” from giving some pointers. All they are saying is that it isn’t always the best situation for someone completely new to wingsuits to learn this way, especially someone on the lower end of the 200-500 jump spectrum.

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> Kim I never said always bypass the BMIs. I'm just saying there are other options and I do recommend assistance either way regardless of jump numbers.
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Do you really feel comfortable putting a wingsuit on someone and giving them some instruction if they might be exactly like me, except with a huge, hungry, reckless skydiving ego? Maybe you do. If that’s the case—who are we piddly manufacturers to tell you anything? You obviously have the whole skydiving thing in your pocket. That’s fantastic. Just remember that you could be sending a message to others who don’t have it all figured out and who really have no business passing out wingsuits or advice, that it’s ok.
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>I don't encourage anybody that is not skilled to try wingsuiting, in fact I don't encourage. People come to us.
Now if someone with more ego than skill came up and was going to try a self- exploratory first wingsuit flight on a borrowed suit and I was powerless to stop it. Then yes I would still provide the foundation for a safe flight. I would keep my eye on that person as its harder for them to kill me that way if we are on the same load ,sharing the same airspace. If I do nothing I have more to lose than if I provide something that may be of value.

I find that reckless and unskilled people are just that regardless of what they are doing. More can be said about a jumpers skills and maturity from experiences and influences later on in their carreers than how they got there basic training. With who and how they flock, currency , spillover skills from other disciplines, as nobody starts out on wingsuits, will create a bigger signature than who did their first flight course. Which is just a foundation and a taste.
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You are also sending a message to skydivers who don’t fly wingsuits that we don’t care about anyone else in the sky. We’ll just put a wingsuit on whoever wants to fly it and everyone else will just have to stay the hell out of the way.

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> Well now you are sending a message ( and its a common one ) That mentors don't care either. Of course we care. If anything goes wrong the locals on any dropzone are the first to lose wingsuiting privileges. We stand to lose the most we should care the most. Plus its our hide up there with someone that shouldn't be. Its fair to say we care more than anybody.
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Should I be cautious about visiting other dropzones where it is common practice for wingsuit flyers who learned from “mentors” to be in the air above me (or in my airspace if they really don’t know what they’re doing)?

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>At Rantoul 03 , home of the infamous jumprun violations, It was the BMIs and experienced birdies that cause maybe a third of the violations. Now it was not due to ignorance as they were in on the creation of the policy. It was not due to the desire to disregard as it was A hassle to the S&TA, a black eye on the sport, not mention our ass on the line. Now none of us landed pointing fingers at each other. It was due to confusion out side of our control. But if A BMI can't keep himself safe there what do you want?

At Eloy holiday 03 with the single know pattern violation. It was easy to point fingers as no BMIs were involved ( luckily ). This sounds like the wingsuit police to me. I'm sure in his case ,as it was in ours back in Rantoul , it wasn't due to ignorance but to confusion that caused him to improvise when faced with no option.
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BMI’s receive training on the correct information regarding wingsuits (not what they heard from some 20-flight wonder), they learn the best way to pass along that information (thus the “instructor” in BMI),

Come to DeLand in November or Eloy during the Holiday Boogie, “sit in” on the BMI course (I doubt you would be discouraged from doing this or have to pay if you sit quietly, observe, and don’t expect the BMI rating when it’s finished). I promise you will learn some things and maybe you might decide it’s worth the money after all. If not, oh well. At least you were willing to set aside the time to learn and those who you “mentor” will be the better for it

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>Better yet for those of us who can't attend for whatever reason, take all of the tidbits of knowledge and publish them, in the intersest of safety. Just the parts about safety and whats not already covered in the flight manual or instructor checklists.
We are not asking for the BMI secrets of glide, speed and stability. Slot flying or whatever. Just everything about safety. Cause its all about safety when training new birds. You want us to be safe yes?
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No one is stopping you from doing what you’re doing, yet you are the one who can’t stop bringing it up!
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> I only bring it up when some BMIs bring up their issues with someone unrated instructing. Its a minority and in most cases its a BMI who hasn't been in the same county as any of the BMCIs for long enough to also get the rating.
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I hope you understand what I’m saying. I’m not flaming you or anyone else and you’re opinion is important. We may never agree, but if we can make an effort to understand another opinion, we are making steps in the right direction. I have written this as a skydiver, not as a representative of BirdMan,


Sincerely,
Kim Pothuisje

~Yes, I do feel much better now.

Sounds like a flame, feels like a flame, But I'm very grateful for your reply, honest! And we both know I deserve it. Although I do stand behind what I say. It was a good juicy discussion. What we need. But I'm very curious to see whats the vast majority opinion even other governing bodies ideas.
Do you still love me? And I'm glad you feel better too.

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[TALONSKY 0]

You know Glen, all I have seen you do is bitch and mown about the BMI’s. I for one am thankful that Birdman cared enough about the future of wingsuit flight to come up with a program and implement it.
Can a nonBMI instruct a student for a first wingsuit flight? Yes. Will it be as thorough as what a BMI would teach? Most likely not. When I started fling wingsuits all I had was the manual and a half an hour conversation with a wingsuit pilot that would occasionally come to my DZ. I made it through the learning curve and lets face it for the most part (when things go right) wingsuit fling is not that hard (now flying well is another thing all together). I would have rather taken a course from a BMI but at that time they did not exist. I am glad now that Manbird has his BMI and can thoroughly teach newbie’s the ropes right.
Kirk

[VectorBoy 0]

Glen was sitting right there at Eloy last year (or was it two years ago) when we ran the BMI course during the holiday boogie. His excuse for not attending? "Well, Bill is on the DZ more than I am so what's the point?"

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True then, true now. Bill not only is a known quality load organizer and respected instructor but I believe he devotes more free time to the dropzone, All of the dropzones in the area, than I can.

By posting all of these "anti establishment" threads, he has clearly demonstrated to me that he missed the boat and should have attended the damn class! You are my boy, Glen, but this shit is out of control. I told you then that I thought it was a mistake that you did not attend.

Chuck Blue
D-12501
AFF/TM/SL-I, BMCI, PRO

[VectorBoy 0]

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You know Glen, all I have seen you do is bitch and mown about the BMI’s.Kirk

I know Kirk, It does look that way sometimes and it does get old. If you have been following along its not just me, though. And you got to realize I'm on the side of the BMI on a lot of subjects. Just not all of them all of the time.