Pilot chute opinions-Skydiving environment

[flyinfishman 0]

Greetings fellow wingnuts!

I'm trying to gather some more opinions ahead of time so that I can upgrade my PC for use with the Vampire pouch and full flight deployments.

From the document "Getting into WS Base" (great article btw, thanks to those who put it together!)

"The PC should NOT have a hackey handle (or heavy handle). With a hackey PC handle there is the possibility of the bridle wrapping around the base of the handle. A heavy PC handle could contribute to PC hesitation."

I have seen this recommendation in other posts regarding hackey handles in the base environment, but what about the skydiving environment?

It seems that if it can happen in the base environment, it can happen in a skydiving environment as well.

I would think a PVC handle would present the least chance for bridle wrapping around the base, yet there are lighter handles, like the lightweight practice golf ball that Sensei Steve uses.
Opinions?

PC size and fabric:
ZP or F111? F111 would "stick" better in the pouch, I would think.
If I understand correctly, because of the large burble, you want larger PC canopy area, but F111 to keep the snatch force down?

What about compatibility with size/type of main canopy?

It would need to be a K/L collapsible for sure

Bridle length:
Seems people are using anything from 8-10 feet

I currently jump a Spectre 170 lightly loaded at 1.15 ( which is awesome for "full speed ahead" deployments because of its soft, snivelly openings )

Current PC setup is a 28" ZP k/l collapsible with hackey and 9 ft. bridle.

Thanks in advance guys for any input/opinions!
JIM

[diablopilot 2]

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I have seen this recommendation in other posts regarding hackey handles in the base environment, but what about the skydiving environment?

It seems that if it can happen in the base environment, it can happen in a skydiving environment as well.

You're probably not considering that a) most skydiving deployments are into a teminal or close to teminal airflow, and b) you have a reserve.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[flyinfishman 0]

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b) you have a reserve

This is nothing I'm not already aware of

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a) most skydiving deployments are into a teminal or close to teminal airflow

A full flight deployment is the same in both environments in regards to airspeed.

This wasn't the focus of my post, I was asking for PC opinions if anyone has one to offer.

[nicknitro71 0]

For skydiving on my S3 I have a 28" ZP with a monkey fist, normal length bridle, open corners.

For base a 38" ZP vented with internal handle, and of course the 9' bridle.

I use the suit pouch for both.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[unclecharlie109 0]

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I have seen this recommendation in other posts regarding hackey handles in the base environment, but what about the skydiving environment?

Our very own CPoxon had a WS reserve ride, caused by PC in tow - hackey handle was a contributing factor.

On a skydive you have some more altitude to rectify a PC in tow situation. But if you want to eliminate the risk of a bridle / hackey situation get your rigger to change it! Otherwise enjoy taking that little extra risk (and pack your PC carefully!!!!)


J

[julesUK 0]

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I have seen this recommendation in other posts regarding hackey handles in the base environment, but what about the skydiving environment?

My skydiving PC has a reasonably heavy hackey and I have always liked the peace of mind when wingsuiting of being able to chuck the thing out sideways very hard and feeling that its mass is going to keep it going sideways so it clears my burble almost instantly.

The same logic would suggest I use something similar in BASE but I think I'm going to be scared enough when I get to the exit point.


Jules

[flyinfishman 0]

yep, the hackey is definitely out.

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Otherwise enjoy taking that little extra risk (and pack your PC carefully!!!!)

I see no reason to take extra risk...extra altitude or not!
I wouldn't enjoy that..that's just not my bag, baby!

thanks for the actual account!

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[TomAiello 26]

I'd recommend a floating handle. All the grip of a handle, but none of the deployment problems. I'm not sure who could make one for skydiving, and it would make cocking a kill line kind of a pain (but not too bad). Maybe contact Marty at Asylum and ask him if he'd make one for skydiving? In a pinch, I guess you could just cut the handle off a regular skydiving PC and throw a floating handle inside it.

I personally prefer a floating handle on a ZP 38" PC with a vent, but that's just kind of carried over from other BASE. I'd say the vent and the 38" are kind of overkill for skydiving. I also use a 9' bridle, but again, that's just because that's what I have handy.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 26]

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My skydiving PC has a reasonably heavy hackey and I have always liked the peace of mind when wingsuiting of being able to chuck the thing out sideways very hard and feeling that its mass is going to keep it going sideways so it clears my burble almost instantly.

The same logic would suggest I use something similar in BASE but I think I'm going to be scared enough when I get to the exit point.

Please do not use this setup BASE jumping. I heard Lukas say almost exactly the same words 3 days before his death (we had swapped rigs so he could try my Blackjack, and I was asking why he had a hackey handle).

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[KrisFlyZ 0]

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My skydiving PC has a reasonably heavy hackey and I have always liked the peace of mind when wingsuiting of being able to chuck the thing out sideways very hard and feeling that its mass is going to keep it going sideways so it clears my burble almost instantly.

I always look to see that the PC has cleared the burble during deployment. I used to have a regular Cazer 28" ZP PC(with 85" bridle) until switching to a Birdman specific Cazer PC(9' Bridle, 28" ZP PC). The birdman specific PC has a smaller hackey.

Kris.

[LouDiamond 1]

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I always look to see that the PC has cleared the burble during deployment

Good way to give yourself some interesting line twists and stability problems. Staying symetrical during deployment is paramount to clean openings.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[flyinfishman 0]

I like the idea of the internal handle.

The only question would be the PC size for use with a skydiving canopy and having a kill line.

I suppose 32" ZP k/l with an internal handle would be a safe bet.

Even though it may not be common, anything to prevent a PC hesitation or tow in a full flight deployment would be a no brainer.

I'll call around and see what they say.
thanks a lot!

JIM

[LouDiamond 1]

I used a PC with an internal handle for skydiving for a long time before I had an actual hack of any kind with no problems. I always made sure that the handle was not in danger of going into the BOC before I exited.I went to an actual handle later on but you would not believe how many people would freak out when they saw it....."Dude, where is your Hack at?" LOL

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[piisfish 140]

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I'd recommend a floating handle..

can you explain what that is ?

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[flyinfishman 0]

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Staying symetrical during deployment is paramount to clean openings.

Amen to that.

I don't watch the PC or even look up at the canopy until I'm solid in the harness.

This is especially true in full flight deployments, which I prefer because I can "feel" the deployment much better and fly through it.

Make sure to maintain heading after pitching in full flight.

Awhile ago I reached to pull, paused briefly to get a better grip on the handle and changed heading by maybe 10 degrees, pitched, then (unknowingly at the time) returned to my original heading before the canopy was out of the bag.
dum-ass Jim!

The result was a nice barber pole from the uneven weight distribution.
I got what I deserved.

Jim

[TomAiello 26]

A floating handle is an internal handle that is not attached to the PC.

When you pack the PC, you push the handle into position, so that it gives you something to grab. But once you've used it to extract the PC, the floating handle just drops down inside the PC. As far as the PC can "see" during inflation, there is no handle. This avoids both the potential for entanglement issues (small) and the weird inflation patterns from weight on the apex (usually a more important issue).

You can work it out for yourself if you just take a standard BASE PC with no handle and drop a 35mm film cannister into the inside. Then pack the PC up and you can see how you can have a handle that is only there when you need to grab it.

I believe the first person to think of this was Swedish wingsuit BASE guru Perflare Eriksson. It's now standard on some size PC's from Asylum.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[VectorBoy 0]

Good way to give yourself some interesting line twists and stability problems. Staying symetrical during deployment is paramount to clean openings.

[diablopilot 2]

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Good way to give yourself some interesting line twists and stability problems. Staying symetrical during deployment is paramount to clean openings.

Disagreement. COMPENSATING for an asymetrical condition is what is paramount to clean openings. It's why we move that usless left arm up ove our heads when we reach for the handle with our right hands. Remember that bit?

It IS a good idea check and see if your P/C has cleared the burble if you sense a bit of delay beyond the norm.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[LouDiamond 1]

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COMPENSATING for an asymetrical condition is what is paramount to clean openings

And there is the other 50% ladies and gentlemen You don't have to compensate for a problem if you don't create it....so don't create it is the line of thought here.

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It's why we move that usless left arm up ove our heads when we reach for the handle with our right hands. Remember that bit?

REALLY? Kinda like why we close our left wing down simultaneously when we pull eh? It still goes back to "don't create a problem and you won't have a problem"

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It IS a good idea check and see if your P/C has cleared the burble if you sense a bit of delay beyond the norm.

That is what "gifted sense" tells a person to do if pulling your string doesn't do the trick.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[TomAiello 26]

I think I'd have to go with JP on this one. On my typical wingsuit flight, I'd rather learn to compensate so that I can watch the PC leaving the burble. If the PC has some kind of problem I'd want to know about it immediately, so that I could spend my last four or five seconds trying to deal with the problem, rather than wasting half (or more) of them simply learning that the problem exists. Obviously, the skydiving environment is the place to learn to compensate and watch the PC properly. I've had line twists on a wingsuit under 300', and I'd prefer to avoid doing it again.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[LouDiamond 1]

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I've had line twists on a wingsuit under 300', and I'd prefer to avoid doing it again.

Was this one of those times where you watched your PC? I have observed and can pull up video where looking over ones shoulder at the PC has caused things as minor as slight heading chages and line twists to complete 180 rotation in the flight path before line stretch was even achieved. We all compensate in slight ways during our flights for one thing or another but during the pull sequence you don't want to have to intentionaly compensate. Keep it simple, don't make it harder than it needs to be. One of the reasons why many BASE pilots have learned to pitch with one arm is to maintain full flight and lessen the chance of a PC in the burble and lessen their vertical decent on pull. This is one instance where learning to compensate for a self induced problem is outweighed by the benefit but this is specific to BASE.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[VectorBoy 0]

It IS a good idea check and see if your P/C has cleared the burble if you sense a bit of delay beyond the norm.

[KrisFlyZ 0]

The idea is not to keep looking at the PC. It is to twist the head slightly to watch the PC catch air and then turn back to a symmetric position. This happens after the hands come in symmetrically for a split second and then the body is symmetric for the opening. I had line twists on less than 10 jumps in the last hundred WS jumps and about 4 were due to packing errors on a new canopy.


Kris.

[robibird 3]

In order to avoid hesitation during deployment make sure that the PC is:

Skydiving

1. Proper size
2. Properly secured in BOC or PC pouch (for those suits which have this option)
3. Have either PVC tube handle or internal handle or no handle

IMHO, WS skydive with a hacky PC is acceptable (this fashion has been present in skydiving for years anyway)

In case you are skydiving with hacky handle type of PC, check out the attachment between the PC and handle itself. There are many different manufacturers and many models of hacky. The Best PC w hacky are those which have hacky handle attached close to the apex. Choose a hacky which is light too

4. Use a WS (long) bridle. (Standard length work OK too, it just shouldn't be ridiculously short)

Summary: During the many thousands of WS jumps conducted in last 5-6 years there was for sure plenty of PC hesitations and self cleared knots between bridle and PC too. Luckily we all have reserves and that fact helps us to be relaxed even if our equipment is not 100% suited for WS skydive.

BASE
1. Correct type and size
2..Have either PVC roll handle or internal handle or no handle.

A hacky handle PC is not acceptable! PCs with the hacky are top heavy. After the pull the PC will always ''dance'' until it is fully inflated, this is caused by the handle travelling slower than the PC body in the air stream, "dancing" is the critical period, where the PC can hit the bridle and create a solid knot.

3.Pack the PC in properly ( preferably the mushroom type of packing )

Pull sequence

Skydiving:

My opinion is that there is no need to watch the PC during the extraction.

No need for that really. However, if nothing going on for 2-3 second than take a look :o)

BASE

Personal preference . If the head turn is fast and performed with minimum movement of the rest of the body, this will not effect the opening at all.

I always check the PC after pull! It requires just one quick head turn to the right.

Robert Pecnik
robert@phoenix-fly.com
www.phoenix-fly.com

[nicknitro71 0]

And if you are Robi you just close the right wing and compensate with the legs to keep the heading and pull at 200'

Memento Audere Semper

903