MTR2 performance=S3 or Vampire 1...

[Atmodude 0]

Hello,

Just saw this movie from Shanghai, the wingsuit is a MTR2, the performance are amazing and how fast he's starting to fly, i can't remember another video of shanghai of someone flying that far with a wingsuit...? So i think this means that those wingsuits are in performance the same and that's more a matter of technique...

What do you guys think of it ?
here's the video
http://homepage.mac.com/stevebraff/iMovieTheater21.html

C'ya !

[LouDiamond 1]

Check out a review of it HERE and then check out "fastest mother fucker in the valley" on skydiving movies .com and decide for yourself

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Atmodude 0]

that's not the point that i wanted to make finding the best video tracking wingsuit, just wanted to open a topic about all wingsuits being on the same performances i think and that as you showed too the pilot of it make
the big difference, no ?.

[vesatoro 0]

Well, I wouldn't go saying all the top end suits are same by performance. For sure there are differences.. But I would say the pilot still makes the difference. A good pilot with a medium suit will always outfly a poor pilot with the top end suit. As it's not the suit that flies, it's the pilot. But every pilot has his/hers own way to fly, and for one pilot the optimal suit may not be the same as for the other. Suits are impossible to compare without the pilots inside.

Vesa

"Fear is the path to the Dark side"
(Master Yoda)

[outrager 6]

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Just saw this movie from Shanghai, the wingsuit is a MTR2, the performance are amazing and how fast he's starting to fly, i can't remember another video of shanghai of someone flying that far with a wingsuit...? So i think this means that those wingsuits are in performance the same and that's more a matter of technique...

Classic was easier and slightly faster to start flying off a cliff than Skyflyer or even Skyflyer 3. This simply means it is easier and slightly faster to start flying, not that it has a better perfomance

Another way to put it: a suit that starts flying quickly has a slower stall speed, and a slower forward speed in general. It is great for jumping gnarly exits, but does nothing in terms of glide ratio - in fact a slow suit is doomed to have inferior glide.

I agree completely that the most important variable is a pilot, however a suit puts a limit on how far a pilot can push it. Consequently a good pilot will try to choose the best suit, and a vast majority of good pilots fly S3

This empty arguments of MTR vs S3 etc are rather stupid. Go out to one of the well-known cliffs, mark your opening spot on GPS, post your glide ratio. Simple enough ???

bsbd!

Yuri.

[Atmodude 0]

THAT would be intresting, very intresting point!

any good pilots with differents suits wants to share their performance they had on gps, if you have one of course...

[outrager 6]

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any good pilots with differents suits wants to share their performance they had on gps, if you have one of course...

It is really simple - you don't have to fly or even own GPS! For a straight line flight, simply note the exact spot where you opened. Then borrow or steal GPS from somebody, mark exit/opening waypoints and you have both distance and altitude. Substract whatever altitude it takes you to start flying (about 100m is a fair average) and opening altitude. Divide distance by remaining altitude and you've got your average L/D.

The last flight i have measured was in July '03, L/D of about 2.45 (1950m alt, 4300m distance, 100m to start, 100m opening). The suit was an old pre-S3 prototype.

There should be better numbers from last summer... would love to see them!

bsbd!

Yuri.

P.S. As a quick reference:

L/D required to reach the landing area at Italian terminal wall is only 1.7 (1200m alt, 1700m distance).

L/D required to use the entire altitude at another Italian wingsuit wall is about 2.3 (1700m alt, 3400m distance), and about 2.5 to reach the lake.

A well-known mushroom spot is special because a small increase in L/D gives you extra hundreds of meters of altitude and literally kilometers of distance. At this point it's potential is nearly unlimited.

[Atmodude 0]

Yuri,

What about the video of Shanghai, you saying it should fly forward slower if the vertical speed is slower, so why is he going that far in Shanghai ?
I still believe if you have the same surface and good glide material on the suit the difference is the angle you take. Like in tracking...

[LouDiamond 1]

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you saying it should fly forward slower if the vertical speed is slower,

Check this out, we've discussed this on numerous occassions but Robbi explains it best. Here is a repost of his article.

Author:Robert Pecnik

Does wingsuit fly or it is just an aerodynamic drag that lowers its vertical speed? Well, wingsuit really flies, since available area is not enough to produce such a low vertical speeds and flat flight path. But, the only force available to propel the wingsuit through air is gravity. What wingsuit tries to do is to use the gravity induced vertical free fall and turn it into as horizontal flight as possible. The same principle applies as for gliders, hang gliders and even square parachutes everybody is familiar with. Wingsuit flies because it IS an AIRFOIL, just like aircraft wing, square canopy or Space Shuttle (actually, by its basic flying form and flying characteristics wingsuit is more comparable to space shuttle then to any other flying object).

Wingsuit, like any airfoil, creates LIFT and DRAG. The better the ratio between lift and drag, the better flying body is. For a particular aerodynamic shape, this ratio between lift and drag varies with speed. There is a speed at which this ratio is the best, and this speed is usually 30 . 40 % higher than the stall speed (ask any glider pilot about minimum and best gliding speed, 90% of times the answer will be 55-65 km/h minimum speed and 80-90 km/h best gliding speed). Flying at the best gliding speed, the flying body will cover most distance for available height. Flying below or above that speed, the flying object will cover less distance for particular height. Every flying body has its minimum airspeed at which it will still generate enough lift to fly. Below that speed it looses lift and will stall (remember, square parachutes will also stall and lose lift. Forward speed in that case is close to zero, while vertical speed will more then double). The same goes for wingsuit. It requires speed to fly. But there is a question what is the best speed for the best glide in wingsuit. This is very complex question since wingsuit is not rigid airfoil. Every flyer flies differently, using slightly different arms, legs or body position. This means that every flyer is different airfoil. Add different pilot weight and size and different length of arms and legs and the issue gets even more complicated.

This is why it also very difficult to measure minimum speed for the wingsuit. But there is general rule for any flying body. Ratio between effective wing area and weight of the flying body is known as wing loading. Most of skydivers are familiar with that term in relation with their canopies. The higher the wing loading is, the canopy will fly faster, but will also have higher stall speed. Today, square canopies are operated with wing loading between 0,5 and 3,0 lbs per square foot. Hang gliders have wing loading around 1,2 and 1,5 lbs/sqft, and their minimum airspeed is around 35 km/h (22 mph). Cessna aircrafts have in general wing loading of 20 lbs/sqft, and their minimum airspeed is 80 . 90 km/h (50 . 55 mph). Space Shuttle, with its short span wings and extremely high wing load, lands at more then 350 km/h (220 mph!!!).

For average person size, wingsuit has wing area of 15 . 16 lbs/sqft, and the weight is 170 . 190 lbs. This gives us wing loading of 10,5 . 12,5 lbs/sqft, ten times higher then square canopy. Some basic math will tell us that for ten times bigger wing loading, the minimum airspeed will be roughly 3 times higher. This is consistent with measurements of wingsuit flights, where the best glide ratio was achieved at airspeeds of 130 km/h (75 mph). At that airspeed the vertical speed was 40 . 50 km/h, resulting in glide ratio between 2 and 2,5. You can go for lower vertical speed, but that will also result in significantly lower horizontal speed and poor glide ratio.

Regarding attempts of landing the wingsuit, much bigger wing area will be needed to generate more lift and reduce minimum airspeed. But human body has definite shape, which is not suited for flight at all, and we'll need at least few million years of evolution effort to change it to more appropriate shape for wingsuit flying. That means that wingsuit potential for more lift is limited by human inadequate shape and available strength. The only option for more lift will be some kind of rigid wings, but we already have these. They are called airplanes.

Also, if you are still thinking of landing the wingsuit, do one normal parachute jump, but when you open the canopy, try to position your body horizontally (can be done by hooking your feet around rear risers) and try to land small elliptical canopy in that position. After that painful experience, multiply pain and injuries by 9 (three times the speed = nine times the forces of impact = 9 times the consequences), and decide if you are willing to give it a try.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[VectorBoy 0]

I agree completely that the most important variable is a pilot, however a suit puts a limit on how far a pilot can push it. Consequently a good pilot will try to choose the best suit, and a vast majority of good pilots fly S3

Yuri.

[unclecharlie109 0]

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any good pilots with different suits wants to share their performance they had on gps, if you have one of course...

I agree with Yuri - where and how high do you open at the italian terminal wall for example? ;)

For those unable to travel to bella Italia - I am compiling a graph comparing the glide performance of the various suits /pilots. If you have some data please send it to me.

I would love to see the Sugar Glider video - can you post it online (skydivingmovies.com)?

Long flights,

J

[unclecharlie109 0]

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Consequently a good pilot will try to choose the best suit, and a vast majority of good pilots fly S3

I think there will be a lot of 2nd hand ones available soon

[outrager 6]

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What about the video of Shanghai, you saying it should fly forward slower if the vertical speed is slower, so why is he going that far in Shanghai ?

"That far" is a relative term Unfortunately exit point videos offer pretty much no measurement of wingsuit perfomance (i.e. L/D). They only help to determine how fast the suit begins to fly. Videos of Classic suit flights at L/D of 1.7 look just as good as videos of S3 flights at L/D of 2.3 for example. In fact, lousy flights often produce the best videos, here is a good example i've posted before:
http://base416.com/ostankino_2004/Pond_Flight.mov

It takes off reasonably fast... try to guess the glide ratio. Hint: it's shameful

bsbd!

Yuri.

[outrager 6]

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If fast and flat is what you want then the answers to your questions are above but remember that this may not be the best flying style for everybody. Some people wish they had the GTI instead of an S-3 because its more flyer friendly than the S-3 and plays better with the other flockers they jump with.

I fully support the statement above, but believe this discussion focused on the part about maximum perfomance, i.e. flat, i.e. max L/D.

bsbd!

Yuri.

[VectorBoy 0]

I think there will be a lot of 2nd hand ones available soon

[unclecharlie109 0]

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Question is how much of a step forward is it? Is it worth the change? Time will tell

Exactly, time will tell.

Exciting times for human flight

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