Can a rigger....

[TheJokergs 0]

Can a rigger make and design a whole new rig and container systems from scratch? what i mean is if he/she wanted a atom classic but couldn't afford it or couldn't get one could they just build one around what a friends looks like? would it be aloud or is there lots of engeneiring issues to condtend with here.
I was just interested to know becuase riggers can patche chutes and fix brokens lines so wouldnt you evenutally be able to make a few of your own things if you could do it competantly?

[Jacqueslevrai 0]

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if he/she wanted a atom classic but couldn't afford it

Maybe, the best thing to do, is to come to buy it in France, as it's a french product

@+ en l'air et bon saut

[Dazzle 0]

I believe that the UK advanced rigger exam requires them to make a rig. I believe that generally they use the design of an existing model.

I also believe that they then get destroyed although I'm not sure if that is being taken apart to inspect it or just destroying it afterwards.

from
http://www.bpa.org.uk/forms/docs/Form%20201%20-%20Advanced%20Riggers%20Course%20(Syllabus).doc

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• Submission of a full piggyback harness and ram air reserve container system to an approved design, including all component parts

[riggerrob 643]

Hee! Hee!
It depends upon which country he lives in and how bright he is.
Many countries have a certification system similar to the American Type Standardization Order. TSO sets tight standards for testing and quality control. Obtaining a TSO is about as easy as obtaining ISO 9000 certification, far too expensive for just one rig.
A few other countries (i.e. Canada) have no formal certification standards, so a Canadian can jump anything he wants to. The majority of Canadian manufacturers have built close copies of proven TSOed parachute equipment. Only three Canadian manufacturers have earned American TSOs and only one of them is still in business.
Since Canadian law does not prohibit me from building my own rig, I started the lengthy process of designing and building my own rig, but managed to pick up a Vector I for free. It is cheaper and quicker for me to update a Vector I to Vector 2 1/2 standards than it is for me to design and build my own rig.
The other issue is that formal rigger training does not teach people how to build rigs, much less design them. Rigger training is normally limited to repairs. Production is an entirely different issue.
Parachute design is a completely different issue. There are maybe a dozen GOOD parachute designers on this planet and they all hold their secrets close to their chests.

[TheJokergs 0]

hmm all this is very interesting, i would just imagine that there would be people at a high preformance level that need things created to their own personal prefrance, and i know that a customised rig with the manufactures help would be the solution.
It would just be cool to jump your own and live.

[mjosparky 4]

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Can a rigger make and design a whole new rig and container systems from scratch? what i mean is if he/she wanted a atom classic but couldn't afford it or couldn't get one could they just build one around what a friends looks like? would it be aloud or is there lots of engeneiring issues to condtend with here.
I was just interested to know becuase riggers can patche chutes and fix brokens lines so wouldnt you evenutally be able to make a few of your own things if you could do it competantly?

In the US a master rigger can build and jump anything he wants. But he is the only one who can jump what he makes.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[markbaur 0]

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In the US a master rigger can build and jump anything he wants. But he is the only one who can jump what he makes.

As a master rigger, I'm grateful for your vote of confidence, but I'm still bound by FAR 105.43, which requires me to use an approved (meaning TSO'd) harness and an approved (TSO'd) reserve.

An exact copy of a TSO'd item is not TSO'd, since the TSO involves quality control (materials tracking and testing), as well as manufacture itself. If I wanted to jump a harness/container I made myself, I'd have to obtain my own TSO, even if I copied my favorite rig.

No rigger rating is required to obtain a TSO.

Your main is not TSO'd, and anybody can make a main parachute of any sort (bedsheet and four clotheslines as an extreme example) without FAA approval. Anybody can jump that main parachute, but there are rules about who can alter it.

Mark

[ypelchat 0]

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Hee! Hee!
It depends upon which country he lives in and how bright he is.
Many countries have a certification system similar to the American Type Standardization Order. TSO sets tight standards for testing and quality control. Obtaining a TSO is about as easy as obtaining ISO 9000 certification, far too expensive for just one rig.
A few other countries (i.e. Canada) have no formal certification standards, so a Canadian can jump anything he wants to. The majority of Canadian manufacturers have built close copies of proven TSOed parachute equipment. Only three Canadian manufacturers have earned American TSOs and only one of them is still in business.
Since Canadian law does not prohibit me from building my own rig, I started the lengthy process of designing and building my own rig, but managed to pick up a Vector I for free. It is cheaper and quicker for me to update a Vector I to Vector 2 1/2 standards than it is for me to design and build my own rig.
The other issue is that formal rigger training does not teach people how to build rigs, much less design them. Rigger training is normally limited to repairs. Production is an entirely different issue.
Parachute design is a completely different issue. There are maybe a dozen GOOD parachute designers on this planet and they all hold their secrets close to their chests.

What's the 3'rd company?

I know only two:

Flying High, and the company that built the Citation containers.



Yves.

[mjosparky 4]

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Quote

In the US a master rigger can build and jump anything he wants. But he is the only one who can jump what he makes.

As a master rigger, I'm grateful for your vote of confidence, but I'm still bound by FAR 105.43, which requires me to use an approved (meaning TSO'd) harness and an approved (TSO'd) reserve.

An exact copy of a TSO'd item is not TSO'd, since the TSO involves quality control (materials tracking and testing), as well as manufacture itself. If I wanted to jump a harness/container I made myself, I'd have to obtain my own TSO, even if I copied my favorite rig.

No rigger rating is required to obtain a TSO.

Your main is not TSO'd, and anybody can make a main parachute of any sort (bedsheet and four clotheslines as an extreme example) without FAA approval. Anybody can jump that main parachute, but there are rules about who can alter it.

Mark

Until you get your TSO on your copy of your favorite rig it is legal for you to jump it.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[TheJokergs 0]

thanks for that this is very interesting. how hard would it be for you as a master rigger to make a tso approved rig and container for your own use.

Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.???

[ZigZag 0]

Give me $25,000-$50,000 for the droptests, a freezer and oven, a good lawyer, a current copy of
TSO C23d, and some good rigging skills(sewing), and you can become the proud owner of a mfg. co. that just might make it. The market is only screaming for new mfg's. Plagiarism and reverse engineering should do the trick.
Ziggy LOL

It isn't that hard, but will the public buy what you have to offer, especially when it's all that has been done before? Watch the "Rage", by Performance Variable,
or the 'Nitro' and "Blade", the "Viper" and "Trident".
you might just be surprised what is coming.
When you become complacent, you get replaced!!!

[TheJokergs 0]

yeah well i if i ever accend to that rigging status would make gear for myself. stuff that would make openings really soft and all that sort of crap,

Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.???

[PhreeZone 20]

A lot of riggers don't put the time into making their own gear since there are already proven patterns made from companies that specifically have a lot of money to spend on testing and research that a rigger usually does'nt.

It might take a rigger only 6-7 hours to sew together a canopy, but it might take him months to get the design right. You would'nt want a canopy that collapses on flare, one that opens hard enough to knock you out, one that spins out of control on opening... Those are all the trials that a test jumper has to go through to get to a design that works in the end.

Is it easier to spend months building and testing the templetes, 3-4 hours cutting the material, 6-8 hours sewing the canopy, 2-3 hours making and attaching the line set... or send PD a check for a already tested and proven canopy design?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[markbaur 0]

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Until you get your TSO on your copy of your favorite rig it is legal for you to jump it.

I'm sorry I wasn't clearer.

If a rig is not TSO'd, it is not legal to jump by anybody. There are no exceptions for master riggers to jump non-TSO'd reserves or harness/containers they've made themselves.

I've cited FAR 105.43. What's your source?

Mark

[riggerrob 643]

Only three Canadian manufacturers have earned American TSOs and only one of them is still in business.

What's the 3'rd company?

I know only two:

Flying High, and the company that built the Citation containers.



Yves.

[ypelchat 0]

Do you know of Parachute Canada? I'm not sure if this was the name of another company. My old rig had a pilot chute made by Parachute Canada.



Yves.

[councilman24 37]

Except the question the Fed's don't want to answer, is how you do all the TSO testing without violating a FAR? They pretty much tell the manufacturers don't ask don't tell. Now, I recently a couple of riggers who "repaired" a set of capewell female releases by building a new harness around them. Or "repaired a rig" by building a new one around the old label.

So if you doint test jumps, on the ten year program, you might get away with jumping your own design. But only if you don't ask. Your still violating the FAR.

One of the interesting BS sessions at the PIA meeting.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[321seeya 0]

In response to "How to test without violating FARS"
Much of the testing can be done with weights, with out involving the human element...Cant it?

BASE 3:16 - Even if you are about to land on a cop - DONT FORGET TO FLARE!
Free the soul -- DJ

[councilman24 37]

Some but not all.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[riggersam 1]

As I recall, this type of question came up when Greg Gasson was doing his "chuteless" jumps that were filmed by Jennings and McGowan. There was an article in Parachutist that was devoted to how it was done...

It seems to me Greg contacted his local FSDO and was basically told that, since he was a Master Rigger, he had the latitude to build his own harness provided that he was the only one jumping with the equipment.

No, I don't have the article in front of me, so I'm not quoting. I'll have to dig up that issue.. Anyone else remember this?

Mark

[Lizard 0]

As bad as this may sound, the FARs are interpretted differently depending on the fed you talk to at the time. One fed may say a particular FAR means this and another may see it from a totally different perspective. Personally, I think you should be able to build and jump anything you want as long as you DONT let others jump it and it does not threaten anyone elses saftey. Its your life, be as silly as you want.

[riggersam 1]

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As bad as this may sound, the FARs are interpreted differently depending on the fed you talk to at the time..

That appears to be the case.

[riggerrob 643]

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Do you know of Parachute Canada? I'm not sure if this was the name of another company. My old rig had a pilot chute made by Parachute Canada.



Yves.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes, Parachutes Canada used to build non-TSO'd gear in British Columbia.
They are currently doing business as Canadian Aerosports International in Mission, BC.
Chris Stevens is still the chief designer.

[mjosparky 4]

Live jumps are required on a rig before a TSO is granted.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[riggermick 7]

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Can a rigger make and design a whole new rig and container systems from scratch? what i mean is if he/she wanted a atom classic but couldn't afford it or couldn't get one could they just build one around what a friends looks like? would it be aloud or is there lots of engeneiring issues to condtend with here.
I was just interested to know becuase riggers can patche chutes and fix brokens lines so wouldnt you evenutally be able to make a few of your own things if you could do it competantly?

Most riggers are like auto mechanics, they are well qualified and trained to troubleshoot and repair a great number of issues, but most don't have the skill, training and most importantly of all, the intuitive concept visualization found in all true designers. If they did possess this vision, we would see a lot more new and improved cars, rigs, can openers, coffee cups etc than we currently do (I'm talking a tens of thousands fold increase over current numbers). I hold a degree in electronics (that I haven't used in some years now) and while I was a pretty good technician I was a long, long way from being a designer of electronic circuitry.

Many riggers decide at some point in their careers that they want to build a rig or a canopy and many do. Some learn under established manufacturers, some (most) learn by un-picking things already built and "reverse engineering " them (a great learning experience by the way) and one day acquire the experience and confidence to actually build and test something that they made (usually a copy of an existing design). This serves to make them excellent technicians with a more thorough understanding of their field than their contemporaries and usually results in them being exceptional craftsmen.

But to design something from the ground up using nothing more than a conceptual idea in ones head takes a relatively rare individual indeed. If one were to take a look at all of the great designers through time one would find a common thread that binds all of them. An almost unusual desire to understand how everything around them works, not just what an item does or even how it functions, but exactly why it works and how everything within and related to the item got to the point that it is today. This happens at an almost unconscious level every day to designers in every field from rigging to writers of great fiction (i.e.: Tom Clancy, Michael Chriton, JK Rowling etc) to furniture designers to rocket scientists.

If one has a really burning desire to create something new or significantly different from what's out there and the fortitude to carry out that idea, then they will have achieved true designer status. I believe this can happen to many individuals at any point in their lives when they come to the realization that they have always had the curiosity to go beyond what's already out there.

As far as the legal aspects of building a rig and using it, that will depend on several factors. Is the rig a "repair or rebuild " of an existing product or a new design? Is the person "repairing" the rig qualified to do so? And how much of a stickler to the exact letter of the law is the FAA MIDO representative?





Anyway that's just my $.02 worth.

Mick Cottle.