I don't have a stake in the professional/non-pro arguement anymore since I found it was a whole lot better to just have fun flying and not worry about teaching at all. 
Do you mean by this that there is another tutorship resource in your area to take up trainees, or do you just turn wanna flockers away when they request your help?
Reply to phreezone, vectorboy, tom, especialy....
At the the risk of getting flamed again,(which caused a chuckle, but nothing constuctive), you guys are all thinking what I am. That is, what is the best way to increase our numbers, "share the flock".
Lets look criticaly at the different approaches, consider the influence, effect, and retention. The numbers available could be helpful. Tho they exist are not sent out for public scrutiny. Don't know why dzs have the numbers but don't want to pubizice. Must be business driven. "It's all GOOD", but there is always room to improve and cooperation and discemination may be key.
Jason:
ITEM: We all have to hand it to Birdman Inc. for their forsight and hard work, involving USPA in the creation of some sort of certification. (Some sort). Right or wrong, it was a start, and a damn good one! I hope, as Tom points out, that this does not become a requirement via USPA, and I doubt it ever will. But lets all admitt that 'Jari & co.' took the very "responsible" road to credibility amonst the skydiving community. Kudo's.
\
Lets move forward!
At the the risk of getting flamed again,(which caused a chuckle, but nothing constuctive), you guys are all thinking what I am. That is, what is the best way to increase our numbers, "share the flock".
Lets look criticaly at the different approaches, consider the influence, effect, and retention. The numbers available could be helpful. Tho they exist are not sent out for public scrutiny. Don't know why dzs have the numbers but don't want to pubizice. Must be business driven. "It's all GOOD", but there is always room to improve and cooperation and discemination may be key.
Jason:
ITEM: We all have to hand it to Birdman Inc. for their forsight and hard work, involving USPA in the creation of some sort of certification. (Some sort). Right or wrong, it was a start, and a damn good one! I hope, as Tom points out, that this does not become a requirement via USPA, and I doubt it ever will. But lets all admitt that 'Jari & co.' took the very "responsible" road to credibility amonst the skydiving community. Kudo's.
\
Lets move forward!
PhreeZone 20
At this point just about anyone that has experessed an interest in jumping a suit and is qualified has. 
I'd perfer that they seek a variety of mentors. I have BIG weakness that I'm still working on (my flips and rolls are HORRIBLE), but Spy is great at them. J-Rock can smoke me on lift but I get him on times. Scott still beats me to initial lift on exit. I will do the bare min of a FFC, but only after they actually talk to one of the other 4 WS flyers at the DZ to learn from others. Honestly.. I'm so flaky on my own flying sometimes I really don't think its the best idea for me to teach others.
I'd perfer that they seek a variety of mentors. I have BIG weakness that I'm still working on (my flips and rolls are HORRIBLE), but Spy is great at them. J-Rock can smoke me on lift but I get him on times. Scott still beats me to initial lift on exit. I will do the bare min of a FFC, but only after they actually talk to one of the other 4 WS flyers at the DZ to learn from others. Honestly.. I'm so flaky on my own flying sometimes I really don't think its the best idea for me to teach others.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
IMGR2 0
QuoteFrom this post I can see that the fulltime skydiver has to charge for everything because he chose the fun life over real life 8 to 3 jobs. (Not that skydiving as a job doesn't sound appealing but I am spoiled into actually having money all the time)
Hey Voodew, I see your an AFF jumpmaster.
Do you charge your students when you take them on an AFF jump?
QuoteSo if your ever down my way stop by I will hook you up with a suit (no charge) and me and my friends will fly with you all day (you pay your slot) - send you home with some cool video(no charge) - and the feeling of new friends made - thats how we do it!because we can!
I guess this offer isn't out to AFF students.
Love you man!!!!!
Excellent Phree, sounds like you guys have a nice little thing going. Regardless how newbies are getting help its nice to know they are.
I remember when it was just you and a spare classic. Its nice to know the flock grows.
I remember when it was just you and a spare classic. Its nice to know the flock grows.
Greybeard wrote> At the the risk of getting flamed again,(which caused a chuckle, but nothing constuctive),
Now, now. Thats no way to treat the local clientele. Its comments like that that foster opinions from people at the smaller dropzone about the big dropzone treating people like numbers or cattle and not really caring.
Oh and BTW Chuck, myself and Asof were all on multiple, as in numerous loads were we violated an SDA aircrafts jump run , just not at SDA proper but at WFFC '03. Lou Diamond was innocent of said incursions only because he was mostly stuck at the BM booth.
Do we need to get S&TA waivers and rebriefs on our next visit to SDA or can we just bring some malt liquor to share with the DZM?
Quote
I missed it the first time, you mean this one?
"If someone has displayed poor decision making in the past (such as flying into jump run) then you are correct they won't be taking up first flights here".
Now, now. Thats no way to treat the local clientele. Its comments like that that foster opinions from people at the smaller dropzone about the big dropzone treating people like numbers or cattle and not really caring.
Oh and BTW Chuck, myself and Asof were all on multiple, as in numerous loads were we violated an SDA aircrafts jump run , just not at SDA proper but at WFFC '03. Lou Diamond was innocent of said incursions only because he was mostly stuck at the BM booth.
Do we need to get S&TA waivers and rebriefs on our next visit to SDA or can we just bring some malt liquor to share with the DZM?
voodew1 0
Quote
Hey Voodew, I see your an AFF jumpmaster.
Do you charge your students when you take them on an AFF jump?
As a matter of fact I will do recurrency jumps for any returning soldier for free (I pay my own slot and charge no cash) ((So kiss it big boy
)))
QuoteI guess this offer isn't out to AFF students.
Not my DZ -- not my deal on that one but hey its not a manufactures rating either its an established rating you ain't got!!!!!!!
Good luck at the course I will call Glenn and tell him I am routin' for ya.
(I have been good and then you show up and try to stir up shit - where's your suit your friend was supposed to hook you up with? The last few times you jumped a wingsuit who's suit was it? Certainly not a "friendly neighborhood nylon crack dealer" if I remember right it was your friendly wingsuit flyer from up the road a bit. Thats right biotch it was me and your always welcome to jump it as I love to hear how you like to throw headdown)
And you know I love you more than you love me you big stud
Nice try Rat - Try harder next time
The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid
QuoteOh and BTW Chuck, myself and Asof were all on multiple, as in numerous loads were we violated an SDA aircrafts jump run , just not at SDA proper but at WFFC '03.
Put some perspective in the story, for those of us that were there, we already know this occured BEFORE we had established a few rules and worked the kinks out with the airflow. It was from those flights that we learned how to make things safer for EVERYONE involved at 2 of the busiest boogies on the planet .If your going to paint a picture, paint the whole thing.
QuoteLou Diamond was innocent of said incursions only because he was mostly stuck at the BM booth.
Realy? Your partially right, I was stuck at the Booth teaching FFCs AND jumping. I made over 100 Birdman flights at WFFC 03 and 84 at Holiday, bad weather and all. But hey, what do I know, I was there
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING
IMGR2 0
You didn't answer my question.
The student can still pay the dz thier fee minus what you get paid for the jump.
I know I do it all the time for tandems that can't afford video. I go with them when its slow and pay my own slot and give them a video for marketing reasons.
The student can still pay the dz thier fee minus what you get paid for the jump.
I know I do it all the time for tandems that can't afford video. I go with them when its slow and pay my own slot and give them a video for marketing reasons.
voodew1 0
QuoteYou didn't answer my question.
The student can still pay the dz thier fee minus what you get paid for the jump.
I know I do it all the time for tandems that can't afford video. I go with them when its slow and pay my own slot and give them a video for marketing reasons.
There is a distinct difference between a first jump student and an experienced skydiver
There is a difference in experienced skydivers making money off experienced skydivers - thats why you give free coaching - and to help you have more people to fly with isn't that right.
Limp on my brother
The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid
mccordia 74
In every other sport it's perfectly normal to have (highly) payd coaches, that often don't have any real experience in the sport themselves, aside from coaching.
They train people because they can take their (be it only theoretical) knowledge, and in clear understandeable language, teach this to their students.
I don't think jump numbers are of that much importance when it comes to the actual first flight training/ground coaching. It's more the persons didactic/teaching/talking skills...
They train people because they can take their (be it only theoretical) knowledge, and in clear understandeable language, teach this to their students.
I don't think jump numbers are of that much importance when it comes to the actual first flight training/ground coaching. It's more the persons didactic/teaching/talking skills...
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?
QuoteNow, now. Thats no way to treat the local clientele. Its comments like that that foster opinions from people at the smaller dropzone about the big dropzone treating people like numbers or cattle and not really caring.
It wasn't a flame at all. It was however, a general statement and expressed directly from Burke.
QuoteDo we need to get S&TA waivers and rebriefs on our next visit to SDA or can we just bring some malt liquor to share with the DZM?
LOL well ya really might want a rebrief since the landing pattern has changed inthe South area.
As to the malt...nah I drink Brandy..up.
TomAiello 26
I've removed a largish set of posts from this thread. It was degenerating into a flamefest, and I don't think we need that here.
Please, let's try to keep this civil. If you have something to say that's just about one other poster, you probably want to reconsider posting it.
Please, let's try to keep this civil. If you have something to say that's just about one other poster, you probably want to reconsider posting it.
-- Tom Aiello
Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com
Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com
QuoteI've removed a largish set of posts from this thread. It was degenerating into a flamefest, and I don't think we need that here.
Please, let's try to keep this civil. If you have something to say that's just about one other poster, you probably want to reconsider posting it.
BRAVO
Keepin' it safe!
Ed
www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com
voodew1 0
So to sum this all up -
There are many ways of getting a first timer in the air. BMCI/BMI/ Unmanufacture rated instruction(which when done by me is pretty much what I was taught by a BMIfor your info)
Differences are how much it costs and how much mentoring goes on the rest of the weekend
Wingsuits will continue to evolve and manufacutures may come and go.
Flights will become longer with forward speeds increasing.
Many will fly together but a few will continue on the solo path as they have no way to get others in the air on the small rural DZs with out the help of others.
Egos will have to be checked so that more first timers will want to join with the "fun" group and not fall into the "your gonna get cut if you do that again" group
We all can help forward wingsuit flight weather you make money at it or not is up to your conscience.
Wingsuit flying is still new and exciting I am not an expert nor do I have 100's of jumps but I do give good instruction and teach as it should be done. I just refuse to pay money to a manufacture who product I sell by giving instruction!
Finally lets not forget this forum is for entertainment and if I lived in an area with 7 day a week jumping I wouldn't be posting here
(PS I do enjoy debate though if you hadn't figured that out yet)
I do everything I can to help promote wingsuit flights in my neck of the woods -
Thanks for the replies
Jason
The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid
There are many ways of getting a first timer in the air. BMCI/BMI/ Unmanufacture rated instruction(which when done by me is pretty much what I was taught by a BMI
Differences are how much it costs and how much mentoring goes on the rest of the weekend
Wingsuits will continue to evolve and manufacutures may come and go.
Flights will become longer with forward speeds increasing.
Many will fly together but a few will continue on the solo path as they have no way to get others in the air on the small rural DZs with out the help of others.
Egos will have to be checked so that more first timers will want to join with the "fun" group and not fall into the "your gonna get cut if you do that again" group
We all can help forward wingsuit flight weather you make money at it or not is up to your conscience.
Wingsuit flying is still new and exciting I am not an expert nor do I have 100's of jumps but I do give good instruction and teach as it should be done. I just refuse to pay money to a manufacture who product I sell by giving instruction!
Finally lets not forget this forum is for entertainment and if I lived in an area with 7 day a week jumping I wouldn't be posting here
(PS I do enjoy debate though if you hadn't figured that out yet)
I do everything I can to help promote wingsuit flights in my neck of the woods -
Thanks for the replies
Jason
The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid
TomAiello 26
QuoteDifferences are how much it costs and how much mentoring goes on the rest of the weekend...
I'm curious about the second part of that. Which way are you saying there is less mentoring for the rest of the weekend (and the future)?
It's been my experience that paying for instruction (of whatever kind) generally opens the door to continue asking questions (without paying) and establish a relationship that allows ongoing support. If someone had paid me for instruction, I'd be more than happy to answer their future questions. I think that's also true if I gave them help without being paid.
I guess what I'm saying is that it seems to me that the issue of ongoing mentorship is more dependent on the specific people involved, rather than the instructional paradigm.
-- Tom Aiello
Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com
Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com
voodew1 0
What I was saying is the professional skydiver moves on to his next paycheck - I continue to jump with this person the rest of the weekend.
The mentoring continues - with tips and feedback at no cost
The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid
The mentoring continues - with tips and feedback at no cost
The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid
Quote
It's been my experience that paying for instruction (of whatever kind) generally opens the door to continue asking questions (without paying) and establish a relationship that allows ongoing support. If someone had paid me for instruction, I'd be more than happy to answer their future questions. I think that's also true if I gave them help without being paid.
Exactly Tom
Tips on safety and technique after being instucted on the FFC are always free.
If they are flocking with the group and I happen to get them on video, the debriefs of the flock are always talked about and tips are given.
1 on 1 training with training on technique and performance, with a full video debrief, are another story.
Keepin' it safe!
Ed
www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com
QuoteWhat I was saying is the professional skydiver moves on to his next paycheck - I continue to jump with this person the rest of the weekend.
The mentoring continues - with tips and feedback at no cost
Jason,
Out of curiousity, where have you personaly seen this done?
Or are you just determining in you mind that just because someone is a Professional Instructor, they are busy with students all day and do no fun jumps?
Keepin' it safe!
Ed
www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com
voodew1 0
Ed you make you living off of skydiving - so if there are 80 tandems plus AFF students on the books how much free time do you have for fun jumps?
Fun jumps are just that jumps after all your money making jumps are done.
I personally have been trying to get a jumper at a different DZ with 1000's of jumps his first wingsuit jump. He is tandem/aff/video/all around professional skydiver. He has had my suits hooked to rigs, gone thru instruction and all the other stuff while waiting for clouds to clear or the night before only to find he has no time to make the jump because he is working......
I being from a small DZ that doesn't advertise doesn't have very much business(I average 75-100 AFF per year most being first jump students that will never be back) which allows me to give more time to some one wanting to learn wingsuiting. I wear a camera on every jump (unless it is super fricken cold) for fun and debriefing. I feel the non-professional skydiver can provide more time as he has it to provide
Maybe I am way off base here ED maybe you are last on the rotation and have lots of free time......
But I bet not
The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid
Fun jumps are just that jumps after all your money making jumps are done.
I personally have been trying to get a jumper at a different DZ with 1000's of jumps his first wingsuit jump. He is tandem/aff/video/all around professional skydiver. He has had my suits hooked to rigs, gone thru instruction and all the other stuff while waiting for clouds to clear or the night before only to find he has no time to make the jump because he is working......
I being from a small DZ that doesn't advertise doesn't have very much business(I average 75-100 AFF per year most being first jump students that will never be back) which allows me to give more time to some one wanting to learn wingsuiting. I wear a camera on every jump (unless it is super fricken cold) for fun and debriefing. I feel the non-professional skydiver can provide more time as he has it to provide
Maybe I am way off base here ED maybe you are last on the rotation and have lots of free time......
But I bet not
The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid
Kdsosso 0
Hi Jason
Since Ed's home DZ is the same as mine, I will add my .02.
Yes, Ed makes his living off of educating others about skydiving, but he does not stop educating when he is not getting paid.
I have overheard Ed say to previous students "you are and will always be my student", then his points out a gear problem, corrects a dirt dive, discusses safety and much more. In fact one time, while he was working he overheard me and another skydiver talking about my gear (the packer indicated there might be a problem with my pin) and before I got on the plane, he asked me to take off my rig, and he re-packed it for me....all while he was working.
This IS who Ed is. He goes beyond the job everyday. He is never to busy to answer a question or give advice to anyone...
whether he is working or not.
If he is working and doesn't have free time to fun jump with someone at that moment, he will set a time to meet with that skydiver later or I have seen him stop doing tandems to fly with an old friend or new one.
I wish all instructors had this steller reputation and sport ethics, but I don't know of many.
He truely gives back to the sport and his students everyday.
A few words to describe Ed- the instructor, for those who do not know him or have not met him:
Safety, Instruction, Class, professional, knowledgeable, kick-ass skydiver!, generous, good sence of humor, helpful and sorry ladies..he's married!
OK...I'll stop!
Since Ed's home DZ is the same as mine, I will add my .02.
Yes, Ed makes his living off of educating others about skydiving, but he does not stop educating when he is not getting paid.
I have overheard Ed say to previous students "you are and will always be my student", then his points out a gear problem, corrects a dirt dive, discusses safety and much more. In fact one time, while he was working he overheard me and another skydiver talking about my gear (the packer indicated there might be a problem with my pin) and before I got on the plane, he asked me to take off my rig, and he re-packed it for me....all while he was working.
This IS who Ed is. He goes beyond the job everyday. He is never to busy to answer a question or give advice to anyone...
whether he is working or not.
If he is working and doesn't have free time to fun jump with someone at that moment, he will set a time to meet with that skydiver later or I have seen him stop doing tandems to fly with an old friend or new one.
I wish all instructors had this steller reputation and sport ethics, but I don't know of many.
He truely gives back to the sport and his students everyday.
A few words to describe Ed- the instructor, for those who do not know him or have not met him:
Safety, Instruction, Class, professional, knowledgeable, kick-ass skydiver!, generous, good sence of humor, helpful and sorry ladies..he's married!
OK...I'll stop!
Quote
I wish all instructors had this steller reputation and sport ethics, but I don't know of many.
And that's the point. Ed may be a shining example of "doing it for the love", but not everybody is. Many are just doing it for the money.
Ted
Like a giddy school girl.
The111 1
QuoteAnd that's the point. Ed may be a shining example of "doing it for the love", but not everybody is. Many are just doing it for the money.
I really doubt anyone is just in skydiving for the money (except for say, something like Skyride).
A long-time instructor may have lost his focus and not let his passion for the sport shine through enough, but if he didn't love skydiving in the first place, he wouldn't be there.
Anyone who is getting paid is "doing it for money", no doubt about it. There is a difference between that phrase and the phrase "doing it JUST for the money". Those who do it for money also do it for other reasons, but as I said above, perhaps some of them lose focus sometimes and don't make their other reasons clear enough.
Again, I doubt any paid skydiver, no matter how pro/skygod, does it *JUST* for the money.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com
Oh and thats were some readers completely miss my perspective on this issue. I have been labeled anti , and this is just not the case.
I would never try to convince anyone any where that there is anything wrong with it. In fact it is my position that this must exist ( or co-exist , with field mentor programs).
Its in the manufactures best interest to have a rep in the field that can organize and distribute product, some event coordination and manage the information flow at larger events.
In most cases they have huge investments of personal time and resources just to be there. Until the manufactures can cover this expense it should be recouped somehow. Its only fair and I wouldn't expect anyone to perform these services for free.
We all, from the manufacturer, the potential student and the wingsuit culture, benifit from these efforts.
The sad fact is that some from inside this program like to cast doubt on any kind of mentorship system. Stress that they are unsafe. Say that mentors don't care about pupils or the future of wingsuiting. They say that the governing bodies will be all over us "if" we don't all homogenize and march to one drummer. You don't have to look too closely to see some marketing going on in these efforts. There is a lot of scare but no data. I sence some friction to coexists from some on their end.
Its the failure of this mentality to recognize that the field mentors are providing the exact same thing out in remote areas, that the program does. That ,again, the manufacturers, potential students and the flock culture benefits from just as much as the structured program. Instead there is a rift and the myth that they should feel like renegades.