Coaches taking harness grips

[theonlyski 8]

Just had a conversation with a newly minted coach about this. Are coaches allowed to take a harness grip on a student (let's be clear, not a FJC student, someone cleared by an instructor to jump with a coach).

They said it's in the SIM and/or IRM, I don't recall seeing it saying that other than coaches are allowed to make gripped exits with students.

Discuss.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[Remster 30]

A Canadian Coach 2 can

Remster

[popsjumper 2]

A U.S. Coach cannot.

That person was told this in the Coach Course.
(assuming, of course, that person is who I think it is.)

Legs and arms only.

As an Evaluator, I would have given them an Unsat for that had they done so.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Beachbum 0]

First, a question. Are you talking about exit, or during freefall?

I very recently got my coach rating, and I couldn't remember this being discussed, so out came the IRM and ISP/SIM. I couldn't find anything one way or the other except for a mention in the ISP category G that says "Main lift web and chest strap grips are counterproductive for most belly-to-earth exits."

If the poll is about exits .... To be honest, I can't see any reason TO use one, on the dive flows for the coach jumps, but also don't know offhand any reason not to if you really wanted to for some odd reason. Harness grips are quite common on RW jump exits. I'm curious as to why it would be considered a problem doing so with a coached student?

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[davelepka 4]

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Harness grips are quite common on RW jump exits. I'm curious as to why it would be considered a problem doing so with a coached student?

RW jumps are made with licensed jumpers, and the exit grips are part of the dive flow. Coach jumps are made with unlicensed jumpers, and those grips are not part of the pre-written dive flow.

Beyond that, harness grips are starting to blur the line between coach and instructor, and there are a ton of coaches who would like to 'assert' themselves beyond their rating. As has been discussed before, the coaches are trained to do one specific job, with a limited scope of responsibility. The rating and the job they are intended to do are designed around that scope of responsibility, and staying within it is important to the success of the program and safety of the student.

We have already seen the results when coaches don't follow the plan. They have been trained and rated to do a job, and their actions should remain within that training and job description.

[popsjumper 2]

This was discussed in our most recent course and no, there is nothing that I found specific about harness grips being "illegal" for Coaches. It was verbally addressed by the Course Director. For me, it was very logical to deny harness grips for Coach jumps for pre-licensed jumpers.

FWIW, IMHO, in addition to what Dave said and to go along with what you read for Cat G, Coach jumps are about student learning. It's not about Coaches controlling them.
If the Coach is using grips of any sort, particularly harness grips, then they are likely doing more controlling than allowing the student to learn.

Furthermore, I don't think that 100-jump wonders should be reaching in for harness grips anywhere with handles in near proximity.

If you are gripping them on exit, they are not properly learning how to exit stable on their own. Even on the fall rate jumps, you might think to take a grip to keep them in close proximity on exit to maximize training time but there again, they are probably not learning stable exit as well as could be.

If you are docking on them in freefall, they are not learning how to dock themselves.

Once they can exit stable and can dock with consistency, then WTH, you can start teaching them 3- and 4-way gripped exits and formations, eh?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Beachbum 0]

I agree about the student learning, and that a coach shouldn't NEED to use grips to maintain proximity. As for staying close on exit, it seems to me the coach ought to be sufficiently decent at flying themselves to stay close without needing grips to do so? That kind of thing is one reason I waited as long as I did to bother getting the rating.

But that said, I'm sure there are more dz's than just the one where I jump the most that have their training program set up with a lot of the post AFF jumps having a gripped exit. The thinking I was told about this is that the less time you waste getting together after exit, the more time they have to work on the goals for that particular jump. The jumps using it are all set up with a star exit, some with coach in, some with student in.

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[iluvtofly 0]

If you look in the BSR's the harness hold program is only for AFF I's. It is recommended that coaches only pick up grips. There is nothing expressly saying "coaches cannot take a harness hold." But everywhere it speaks about harness holds it does specifically say AFF I's.

[popsjumper 2]

If you look in the BSR's the harness hold program is only for AFF I's.Which is why it's also known as the Harness Hold Method.

It also follows that Coaches can teach FJC except method specific parts...which include the harness hold.

Grips is one thing, harness hold is something else.


So for the rest of you, let's dispense with the guidelines and common sense and go with the ridiculous...

Neither the SIM nor the IRM says we can't take up tit grips so let's all grab tits, eh?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[theonlyski 8]

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If you look in the BSR's the harness hold program is only for AFF I's.Which is why it's also known as the Harness Hold Method.

It also follows that Coaches can teach FJC except method specific parts...which include the harness hold.

Guys, I'm NOT talking about doing an AFF jump, nor teaching the method specific portions of it.

Either way, straight from the horses mouth, harness grips aren't illegal, they just cannot be used by a coach to prevent/stop a spin or do roll-overs (those are to be done only by AFF-I's).

This was simply a yes/no type question.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[iluvtofly 0]

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If you look in the BSR's the harness hold program is only for AFF I's.Which is why it's also known as the Harness Hold Method.

It also follows that Coaches can teach FJC except method specific parts...which include the harness hold.

Guys, I'm NOT talking about doing an AFF jump, nor teaching the method specific portions of it.

Either way, straight from the horses mouth, harness grips aren't illegal, they just cannot be used by a coach to prevent/stop a spin or do roll-overs (those are to be done only by AFF-I's).

This was simply a yes/no type question.

We're not talking about AFF jumps either. But everywhere you read about harness holds it specifically mentions AFF-I's. Which would lead one to believe they are the only ones to do it. One thing I learned in the coach course is that the SIM makes a lot of assumptions. Did you know that according to the SIM a student is not required to wear shoes or a jumpsuit? So would you let a student jump naked and with no shoes? No. Same idea here.

[theonlyski 8]

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We're not talking about AFF jumps either. But everywhere you read about harness holds it specifically mentions AFF-I's. Which would lead one to believe they are the only ones to do it. One thing I learned in the coach course is that the SIM makes a lot of assumptions. Did you know that according to the SIM a student is not required to wear shoes or a jumpsuit? So would you let a student jump naked and with no shoes? No. Same idea here.

But it's not ILLEGAL. How many tandem STUDENTS have you seen jump without a jumpsuit?

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[iluvtofly 0]

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We're not talking about AFF jumps either. But everywhere you read about harness holds it specifically mentions AFF-I's. Which would lead one to believe they are the only ones to do it. One thing I learned in the coach course is that the SIM makes a lot of assumptions. Did you know that according to the SIM a student is not required to wear shoes or a jumpsuit? So would you let a student jump naked and with no shoes? No. Same idea here.

But it's not ILLEGAL. How many tandem STUDENTS have you seen jump without a jumpsuit?

True. But that doesn't make it right.

[Scrumpot 1]

What would the intended purpose be, of a coach taking, or wanting to (apparently) take harness grips for anyway, in the 1st place? Maybe I am missing here somewhere too - perhaps WHY this question (and purpose of this poll) is being asked?

Where is it thought, or being supposed, that harness grips are to be used anywhere, in a (specifically) coaching jump? - Maybe if I/we understood more WHY a coach would think he/she actually WANTS this, or feels they are going to use it (harness grips anywhere) - to apply towards more effectively actually accomplishing a coaching-specific (and ISP progression/proficiency requirement function) skydive - I/we could better address/respond to at least now too, the discussion at hand?

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[theonlyski 8]

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What would the intended purpose be, of a coach taking, or wanting to (apparently) take harness grips for anyway, in the 1st place? Maybe I am missing here somewhere too - perhaps WHY this question (and purpose of this poll) is being asked?

Where is it thought, or being supposed, that harness grips are to be used anywhere, in a (specifically) coaching jump? - Maybe if I/we understood more WHY a coach would think he/she actually WANTS this, or feels they are going to use it (harness grips anywhere) - to apply towards more effectively actually accomplishing a coaching-specific (and ISP progression/proficiency requirement function) skydive - I/we could better address/respond to at least now too, the discussion at hand?

This came about after a discussion about taking harness grips in the first place. The person said chest strap grips were ok, but anywhere else on the harness were illegal. I had never heard of that, and wanted to clarify.

Not specifically for a cat G or H, just in general.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[jcrouch 0]

Coaches are trained and evaluated to lead the training jumps in Category G and H. Those jumps have specific protocol for each jump. On many of those jumps, the coach should remain in place so a student can take grips with the coach for docking maneuvers. Although the BSRs do not prohibit a gripped exit by a coach, or prevent the coach from flying up to a student who has been cleared to solo freefall supervision and gripping the harness, it is not part of any of the coaching outlined in the Integrated Student Program. And, if it is a grip to stop a spin, assist with a deployment or perform a roll-over, those types of maneuvers must only be performed by a currently rated AFF Instructor.

Jim Crouch
Director of Safety and Training
U.S. Parachute Association

[matthewcline 0]

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Coaches are trained and evaluated to lead the training jumps in Category G and H. Those jumps have specific protocol for each jump. On many of those jumps, the coach should remain in place so a student can take grips with the coach for docking maneuvers. Although the BSRs do not prohibit a gripped exit by a coach, or prevent the coach from flying up to a student who has been cleared to solo freefall supervision and gripping the harness, it is not part of any of the coaching outlined in the Integrated Student Program. And, if it is a grip to stop a spin, assist with a deployment or perform a roll-over, those types of maneuvers must only be performed by a currently rated AFF Instructor.

Jim Crouch
Director of Safety and Training
U.S. Parachute Association

Thanks for coming in and clearing up a few gray spots Jim.

Let me through one in the pot.

Group Freefall Skills, as we progress through the sport, does include grips for the "base" of a formation. Since USPA allows a one to one ratio of "D" license holders to Coach (with proper approvals of course) can you clear up gripped exits for Group Skydiving Skills, not for stability?

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[popsjumper 2]

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can you clear up gripped exits for Group Skydiving Skills, not for stability?

Here's what I know.
By "gripped" it is meant anywhere other than harness.
Leg and/or arms. I was told by more than one course director that a chest strap grip by Coaches was OK, too.

They call them "grippers" for a reason, eh?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[ufk22 33]

What I tell my candidates is that they can take any grip they would take to make the same exit with an experienced jumper. If that means taking a harness grip, fine.
For example, if they're launching a stairstep, they can take a leg-strap grip.
They are not trained to use harness grips (or any grips) to control the student and should not do so.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[ufk22 33]

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What I tell my candidates is that they can take any grip they would take to make the same exit with an experienced jumper. If that means taking a harness grip, fine.
For example, if they're launching a stairstep, they can take a leg-strap grip.
They are not trained to use harness grips (or any grips) to control the student and should not do so.

To clarify, I'm refering to post-cat G or H exits. Coaches make a lot of student jumps after Cat H.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[davelepka 4]

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For example, if they're launching a stairstep, they can take a leg-strap grip.
They are not trained to use harness grips (or any grips) to control the student and should not do so

That's the citical difference. The one grip is used for building an established formation, and if you're trying to pull a piece out of the door, you need that grip. If the exit goes bad, the plan is to drop the grip and rebuild after everyone is stable.

A harness grip on a two-way with a student where you are not launching a piece is there for stability and control over the student. If the exit goes bad, the grip is there to allow the instructor to correct things in short order.

The problem is that some coaches, unless prohibited from doing so, will begin to blur the line between coach and instructor, and start to do 'instructor things' when they have no business doing them. In essence what happens is that the coach ends up gaining experience at the expense of the student, and that's the exact opposite of what the coach is supposed to do. The whole point of the coach program is to enhance the students learning post-AFF, not subtract from it.

Of course, the natural extension of that is that if the coaches get used to that type of interaction on the exits, they'll begin to adopt it later on. Using a harness grip to dock and stabilize the student, which leads to them feeling responsible for the stability of the student, and of course, a harness grip puts you right in the neighborhood for deploying for a student. I can easily see a coach docking on a unstable student with a harness grip, and when the student doesn't become stable, what do they do? The PC is right there....

Coaches are like any other jumper. Just like every newbie who buys too much canopy for them, and insists they'll be careful with it and aren't going to swoop, sooner or later they swoop it anyway. Coaches have a defined job and set of responsibilites, and that needs to include what to do, and what they're not allowed to do.

It's simple - follow the book, and do the dive the way it says. It's nothing more than a structured two-way with a newbie. Plan the dive and dive the plan, to include freefall manuvers, break off and opening protocols. Don't deviate, don't make shit up as you go, the best dive you can do is one that is 100% representative of what the book says.

[ufk22 33]

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For example, if they're launching a stairstep, they can take a leg-strap grip.
They are not trained to use harness grips (or any grips) to control the student and should not do so

That's the citical difference. The one grip is used for building an established formation, and if you're trying to pull a piece out of the door, you need that grip. If the exit goes bad, the plan is to drop the grip and rebuild after everyone is stable.

A harness grip on a two-way with a student where you are not launching a piece is there for stability and control over the student. If the exit goes bad, the grip is there to allow the instructor to correct things in short order.

The problem is that some coaches, unless prohibited from doing so, will begin to blur the line between coach and instructor, and start to do 'instructor things' when they have no business doing them. In essence what happens is that the coach ends up gaining experience at the expense of the student, and that's the exact opposite of what the coach is supposed to do. The whole point of the coach program is to enhance the students learning post-AFF, not subtract from it.

Of course, the natural extension of that is that if the coaches get used to that type of interaction on the exits, they'll begin to adopt it later on. Using a harness grip to dock and stabilize the student, which leads to them feeling responsible for the stability of the student, and of course, a harness grip puts you right in the neighborhood for deploying for a student. I can easily see a coach docking on a unstable student with a harness grip, and when the student doesn't become stable, what do they do? The PC is right there....

Coaches are like any other jumper. Just like every newbie who buys too much canopy for them, and insists they'll be careful with it and aren't going to swoop, sooner or later they swoop it anyway. Coaches have a defined job and set of responsibilites, and that needs to include what to do, and what they're not allowed to do.

It's simple - follow the book, and do the dive the way it says. It's nothing more than a structured two-way with a newbie. Plan the dive and dive the plan, to include freefall manuvers, break off and opening protocols. Don't deviate, don't make shit up as you go, the best dive you can do is one that is 100% representative of what the book says.

And that is what I do. "The book" does not prohibit a harness grip to launch a formation. It does prohibit a coach (or any non-AFF rated jumper) from using any grip, not just the harness, to control a student beyond just keeping them close for a second on the exit (no spins stops, no roll overs, etc).
To tell a coach that they absolutely cannot do something that is NOT prohibited by USPA, just because someone might possibly go beyond what IS allowed does that coach a disservice.
I always assume that anyone I sign off on a rating to will follow the rules. If I find that they don't, I'll work just as hard to suspend the rating as I did to help them get it.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[popsjumper 2]

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And that is what I do. "The book" does not prohibit a harness grip to launch a formation.

The "book" does not prohibit a lot of things. Can you imagine how thick it would be if it listed all the things one can't do?

Harness grips - AFFI

The "book" does specify harness grips in that we are talking the Harness Hold method...not Coaching. Coaches cannot teach method-specific topics. Harness Hold is the method-specific activity we are addressing.
It doesn't follow that they can use the method if they can't teach it.

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To tell a coach that they absolutely cannot do something that is NOT prohibited by USPA.....

What IS allowed is ALL they can do. To tell a Coach that he can go beyond that could lead to trouble and indeed it has.
Strictly for demonstration purposes: USPA (the "book") does not prohibit taking an 10-jump wonder on a 10-way head-down vertical formation jump either. Is that smart?

Let's use some common sense here guys.

You can launch any formation with a student without taking a harness grip. Please tell me of a FS formation that requires a harness grip.

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....just because someone might possibly go beyond what IS allowed does that coach a disservice.

I'm not concerned with providing a service for a Coach. I'm concerned about the student....as well should we all.

I'm concerned that Coaches in all their 100-jump wisdom of grabbing harnesses, particularly MLWs, will be grabbing and dislodging handles. Not good. Coaches have no reason whatsoever to be near any handles, for any reason, IMHO.

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I always assume that anyone I sign off on a rating to will follow the rules.

Yes, we all hope for that and that's a good thing

If I find that they don't, I'll work just as hard to suspend the rating as I did to help them get it.

[theonlyski 8]

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What IS allowed is ALL they can do. To tell a Coach that he can go beyond that could lead to trouble and indeed it has.
Strictly for demonstration purposes: USPA (the "book") does not prohibit taking an 10-jump wonder on a 10-way head-down vertical formation jump either. Is that smart?

SIM 2-1(E):

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6. Students training for group freefall

a. Student freefall training for group freefall jumps must be conducted by either:

1. Student freefall training for group freefall jumps must be conducted by either A USPA Coach under the supervision of a USPA Instructor or;

2. USPA D license holders provided there is a minimum ratio of one D license holder to one student with a maximum of a 4-way.

It does say no more than a 4 way, which would be saying that you can't do a 10 way.

Jim has already commented with the official word, so I'm not trying to prove a point, just seeing the differences in the way people were taught seems to be both ways.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[topdocker 0]

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I'm concerned that Coaches in all their 100-jump wisdom of grabbing harnesses, particularly MLWs, will be grabbing and dislodging handles. Not good. Coaches have no reason whatsoever to be near any handles, for any reason, IMHO.

I just got my coach rating, and I have a few more jumps than a hundred; I've even been around the block a time or two.

I think I've been insulted, but in all my "100-jump wisdom," I'm not sure.

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