unclecharlie95 3 #1 May 18, 2005 Check out the updated Phoenix-Fly website -New layout -Phoenix-Fly Instructor Program launched -Prodigy online order form added -User manuals updated - and lots more... BASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #2 May 18, 2005 Nice looking website. If I read it correctly, a PFI Instructor must buy a minimum of 2 PF wingsuits for their own demo program according to the PF Instructor agreement? Be safe. Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie95 3 #3 May 18, 2005 Quote a PFI Instructor must buy a minimum of 2 PF wingsuits for their own demo program according to the PF Instructor agreement? Man you were fast It should be interpreted as: when a PFI wishes to buy demo suits there is a minimum order volume of 2 suits. I'll ask for a re-wording BASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #4 May 18, 2005 QuoteIt should be interpreted as: when a PFI wishes to buy demo suits there is a minimum order volume of 2 suits. So there will not be demo program for the PFI's by the manufacturer, and they must develope their own demo fleet to teach their student on? Be safe. Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie95 3 #5 May 18, 2005 Quote QuoteIt should be interpreted as: when a PFI wishes to buy demo suits there is a minimum order volume of 2 suits. there will not be demo program for the PFI's by the manufacturer, /reply] For the moment that is correct Ed. In the future this is likely to change though. First we have to get the ball rolling BASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites The111 1 #6 May 18, 2005 This is probably the stupidest question I've ever asked, but can someone be BMI and PFI at same time? You know, to offer choices to those newbies who may prefer BM over PF, or vice versa? Also, does it cost anything to become PFI? I'm going further and further off topic here, but does one actually have to be a BMI/PFI to take someone on their first WS jump? The question is purely academic - I would not attempt to instruct someone without the rating, nor would I have accepted instruction on MY first jump from someone without a rating. But I am curious what the USPA's stance on this is... I feel like a jerk for asking some of these questions, but the fact is that even though many try to deny the existence of a commercial rift being formed in the WS world, I as a somewhat experienced pilot looking to possibly become an instructor, am feeling the "nonexistent" rift personally. I feel forced to choose between one manufacturer or the other, and my desire to teach is inextricably linked to a completely separate desire (not necessarily held by me) to promote commercial products. I'm not badmouthing this desire... manufacturers of wingsuits deserve all the promotion they can get, since THEY only have allowed me to fly! I'm basically just rambling here and I hope I haven't stepped on any toes with my words, but I am curious what other think about these things...www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flyinfishman 0 #7 May 18, 2005 I have wondered the same. Will we need to have a rating for every different manufacturer? Will a PFI not be allowed to conduct a FFC using a BM suit for the student and vice versa? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites unclecharlie95 3 #8 May 18, 2005 Quotebut can someone be BMI and PFI at same time? Yes of course. They are not exclusive. The situation is similar to what happens for tandem ratings. QuoteAlso, does it cost anything to become PFI? Yes the PFI course has a fee, contact your PFI/E for details. The PFI conversion also carries a small admin fee. Quote but does one actually have to be a BMI/PFI to take someone on their first WS jump? No, if you are an experienced wingsuit pilot with approval from your dropzone (DZO, S&TA) there is nothing to stop you from training people to fly wingsuit. BUT you will be better able to do this task after manufacturer training and your students will appreciate this. (there are other obvious benefits to being a wingsuit instructor also) The governing bodies do not recognise these ratings but generally do follow the manufacturers recommendations.BASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites unclecharlie95 3 #9 May 18, 2005 QuoteWill we need to have a rating for every different manufacturer? No, officially no rating is required, as I wrote in my post above.BASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot1 0 #10 May 18, 2005 QuoteI have wondered the same. Will we need to have a rating for every different manufacturer? Will a PFI not be allowed to conduct a FFC using a BM suit for the student and vice versa? Alittle of topic to this thread, but IMO teaching someone how to fly a wingsuit is relatively easy after making a few jumps on a wingsuit. Teaching the correct way to fly a wingsuit and teaching the correct emergency procedures on how to deal with thing in the correct way, when shit goes bad, is another and IMO it should be taught by a qualified person that has gone through a cousre on how to teach it correctly. Some wingsuit flyers choose not to go through the formal training programs developed by the wingsuit makers and choose to teach their own way. Is it the right way or safe way? Thats a matter of opinion. BM and PF suits are basicaly the same as far as handles for lacing the rig to the suit or to cutaway wing etc.... IMO, I would not suggest anyone teaching someone else to fly a wingsuit that they aren't not 100% farmiliar with. Be safe! Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kevin922 0 #11 May 18, 2005 The website looks great! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 4 #12 May 18, 2005 Matt, Perry Trowbridge is the PF "Examiner" (like Scott, Ed, Fergie and I are "Chiefs"), but he is also a certified BMI. All of his training suits are BirdMan Classic II's and GTi's. A wingsuit instructor is a wingsuit instructor...period. I would find it very hard to believe that the PFI instructor course has more than ten words changed from the BMI course text, but then that is as it should be; why fix what is not broken. Ultimately, either instructional course is going to provide you the tools you need to have to get the job done. Likewise, both courses will, I am sure, validate your airskills and let you know if you truly are ready to take people on first flights. As Ed stated, the rigging of the suits (minus the PF trainer) is the same. Personally, I think it's fantastic that Robi has created his instructional program. Perry is very personable and a great teacher; he will do well in his capacity as "examiner" there. As to which rating to get, do what you like. Personally, I think you already have the airskills to pass the course. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites unclecharlie95 3 #13 May 18, 2005 QuoteA wingsuit instructor is a wingsuit instructor...period. Very true, but there are some differences between the programs. QuoteI would find it very hard to believe that the PFI instructor course has more than ten words changed from the BMI course text, Erm, go have a look on the PF website, there are few more than 10 words changed. The PFI program has a major fundamental difference to the BMI system, after successfully completing the briefing the student jumps solo. Why? Because wingsuit is not AFF and the instructor can do little to nothing for the students safety after exit (apart from correct heading and body position). This has the added advantage of reducing the cost of the students first wingsuit flight. Phoenix Fly also requires applicants to have a Coach or Instructor rating. BM does not. Communication and interpersonal skills come before "ace" pilot skills, as these are what count for being able to teach. JBASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 4 #14 May 18, 2005 You guys do what you like, but we will happilly continue to evaluate our candidates airskills before we give them our rating. If you think that there is nothing you can do in the air as an instructor to un-fuck someone you are sadly mistaken. No, you are not going to tackle them in the air if they zoo out, but the things you can provide really make a difference in the experience. The simple act of being able to stay relative with a flailer in the boxman position tells me alot about a candidates flying ability. Likewise the ability to use ones cognitive skills to evaluate a student's flight, give corrective hand and arm signals during the flight, and then properly debrief him/her on the ground is paramount in my opinion. I have trained HUNDREDS of first flight students and trained around 25 BMI's. Perry has the skillset to stay with anyone in any perfect or flailing attitude, so I find it odd that he would not enforce the same standards on all he deems suitable to be PFI's. Sorry to drag this thread off topic, but that just needed to be said. Perhaps I will detach the instructor-training parts of this and create another one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites unclecharlie95 3 #15 May 18, 2005 Quote but we will happilly continue to evaluate our candidates airskills before we give them our rating. I did not say that we do not make an air skills evaluation, we do, my point was that this is not the top priority (it is behind communication and interpersonal skills). QuoteIf you think that there is nothing you can do in the air as an instructor to un-f*ck someone you are sadly mistaken. Please can you clarify this statement. I was talking about the instuctor in freefall being able to affect the students safety.BASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 4 #16 May 19, 2005 I thought I spelled it out pretty good in my first post, but I will expound: Often is the time when a first flight student blows an exit and then winds up pointing in the wrong direction (like back under the line of flight at Rantoul where we get out first). This, regardless of "other" jump experience. I cannot count the times that I have had to fly up and "corral" them back in a safe direction; it's routine. Likewise, it's very common for amped-up students to forget to do a practice pull up top. Being able to fly up alongside and give them the PRCP signal, then demonstrate it, gets them back on track. Getting them to do PRCP's prior to the actual pull is very important safety-wise in our opinion. People get scared during initial wingsuit dives for a number of reasons: "I can't move my arms!" and "it's time to pull and I hope I don't screw it up!" are the most common. Most people get over the first thing nearly immediately, but many, many people get very sketchy at pull time, no matter how thorough the ground class. Being able to fly right alongside them, smiling and shooting them hand and arm signals as well as prompting them into a better flight configuration really does wonders to relax them and, therefore, enhance the safety of the event. In conclusion, the instructor's ability to close on a student, get him flying efficiently, and making sure he is pointed in the right direction are all valid safety points. We do not require people with over 500 jumps to fly with a BMI, but we do require that anyone demoing one of our suits at our booth sit though the ground class (unless they can show documented proof of prior wingsuit experience). Most "experienced" (over 500 jumps) skydivers, however, choose to do their first flight with a BMI. Reason? They want to have someone next to them to "go to school" on so that they can more rapidly get the suit flying efficiently. We absolutely require that any 200 to 500 jump current skydiver jump with a BMI if they want to jump our demo suits. Chuck Blue D-12501 AFF/SL/TM-I, BMCI, PRO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot1 0 #17 May 19, 2005 QuoteI was talking about the instuctor in freefall being able to affect the students safety. Not wanting to get into the the never ending debate of how and whom should be able to teach students to fly wingsuit, I don't think it's the direct safety of the student that is the only factor when a new wingsuit student takes to the air. Having a newly instructed wingsuit flyer, at only 200 jumps, be un stable and/or unaware and take the wrong flight path and collide with another skydiver that has opened his/her parachute, or for that matter take out a tandem under canopy, may be the end of an unregulated USPA discipline. Be safe. Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VectorBoy 0 #18 May 19, 2005 Not wanting to get into the the never ending debate of how and whom should be able to teach students to fly wingsuit, I'm not touching this one with a ten foot pole! But....... I am LOVIN this! And now we return you to our regularly scheduled...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #6 May 18, 2005 This is probably the stupidest question I've ever asked, but can someone be BMI and PFI at same time? You know, to offer choices to those newbies who may prefer BM over PF, or vice versa? Also, does it cost anything to become PFI? I'm going further and further off topic here, but does one actually have to be a BMI/PFI to take someone on their first WS jump? The question is purely academic - I would not attempt to instruct someone without the rating, nor would I have accepted instruction on MY first jump from someone without a rating. But I am curious what the USPA's stance on this is... I feel like a jerk for asking some of these questions, but the fact is that even though many try to deny the existence of a commercial rift being formed in the WS world, I as a somewhat experienced pilot looking to possibly become an instructor, am feeling the "nonexistent" rift personally. I feel forced to choose between one manufacturer or the other, and my desire to teach is inextricably linked to a completely separate desire (not necessarily held by me) to promote commercial products. I'm not badmouthing this desire... manufacturers of wingsuits deserve all the promotion they can get, since THEY only have allowed me to fly! I'm basically just rambling here and I hope I haven't stepped on any toes with my words, but I am curious what other think about these things...www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyinfishman 0 #7 May 18, 2005 I have wondered the same. Will we need to have a rating for every different manufacturer? Will a PFI not be allowed to conduct a FFC using a BM suit for the student and vice versa? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie95 3 #8 May 18, 2005 Quotebut can someone be BMI and PFI at same time? Yes of course. They are not exclusive. The situation is similar to what happens for tandem ratings. QuoteAlso, does it cost anything to become PFI? Yes the PFI course has a fee, contact your PFI/E for details. The PFI conversion also carries a small admin fee. Quote but does one actually have to be a BMI/PFI to take someone on their first WS jump? No, if you are an experienced wingsuit pilot with approval from your dropzone (DZO, S&TA) there is nothing to stop you from training people to fly wingsuit. BUT you will be better able to do this task after manufacturer training and your students will appreciate this. (there are other obvious benefits to being a wingsuit instructor also) The governing bodies do not recognise these ratings but generally do follow the manufacturers recommendations.BASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie95 3 #9 May 18, 2005 QuoteWill we need to have a rating for every different manufacturer? No, officially no rating is required, as I wrote in my post above.BASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #10 May 18, 2005 QuoteI have wondered the same. Will we need to have a rating for every different manufacturer? Will a PFI not be allowed to conduct a FFC using a BM suit for the student and vice versa? Alittle of topic to this thread, but IMO teaching someone how to fly a wingsuit is relatively easy after making a few jumps on a wingsuit. Teaching the correct way to fly a wingsuit and teaching the correct emergency procedures on how to deal with thing in the correct way, when shit goes bad, is another and IMO it should be taught by a qualified person that has gone through a cousre on how to teach it correctly. Some wingsuit flyers choose not to go through the formal training programs developed by the wingsuit makers and choose to teach their own way. Is it the right way or safe way? Thats a matter of opinion. BM and PF suits are basicaly the same as far as handles for lacing the rig to the suit or to cutaway wing etc.... IMO, I would not suggest anyone teaching someone else to fly a wingsuit that they aren't not 100% farmiliar with. Be safe! Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kevin922 0 #11 May 18, 2005 The website looks great! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #12 May 18, 2005 Matt, Perry Trowbridge is the PF "Examiner" (like Scott, Ed, Fergie and I are "Chiefs"), but he is also a certified BMI. All of his training suits are BirdMan Classic II's and GTi's. A wingsuit instructor is a wingsuit instructor...period. I would find it very hard to believe that the PFI instructor course has more than ten words changed from the BMI course text, but then that is as it should be; why fix what is not broken. Ultimately, either instructional course is going to provide you the tools you need to have to get the job done. Likewise, both courses will, I am sure, validate your airskills and let you know if you truly are ready to take people on first flights. As Ed stated, the rigging of the suits (minus the PF trainer) is the same. Personally, I think it's fantastic that Robi has created his instructional program. Perry is very personable and a great teacher; he will do well in his capacity as "examiner" there. As to which rating to get, do what you like. Personally, I think you already have the airskills to pass the course. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie95 3 #13 May 18, 2005 QuoteA wingsuit instructor is a wingsuit instructor...period. Very true, but there are some differences between the programs. QuoteI would find it very hard to believe that the PFI instructor course has more than ten words changed from the BMI course text, Erm, go have a look on the PF website, there are few more than 10 words changed. The PFI program has a major fundamental difference to the BMI system, after successfully completing the briefing the student jumps solo. Why? Because wingsuit is not AFF and the instructor can do little to nothing for the students safety after exit (apart from correct heading and body position). This has the added advantage of reducing the cost of the students first wingsuit flight. Phoenix Fly also requires applicants to have a Coach or Instructor rating. BM does not. Communication and interpersonal skills come before "ace" pilot skills, as these are what count for being able to teach. JBASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #14 May 18, 2005 You guys do what you like, but we will happilly continue to evaluate our candidates airskills before we give them our rating. If you think that there is nothing you can do in the air as an instructor to un-fuck someone you are sadly mistaken. No, you are not going to tackle them in the air if they zoo out, but the things you can provide really make a difference in the experience. The simple act of being able to stay relative with a flailer in the boxman position tells me alot about a candidates flying ability. Likewise the ability to use ones cognitive skills to evaluate a student's flight, give corrective hand and arm signals during the flight, and then properly debrief him/her on the ground is paramount in my opinion. I have trained HUNDREDS of first flight students and trained around 25 BMI's. Perry has the skillset to stay with anyone in any perfect or flailing attitude, so I find it odd that he would not enforce the same standards on all he deems suitable to be PFI's. Sorry to drag this thread off topic, but that just needed to be said. Perhaps I will detach the instructor-training parts of this and create another one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie95 3 #15 May 18, 2005 Quote but we will happilly continue to evaluate our candidates airskills before we give them our rating. I did not say that we do not make an air skills evaluation, we do, my point was that this is not the top priority (it is behind communication and interpersonal skills). QuoteIf you think that there is nothing you can do in the air as an instructor to un-f*ck someone you are sadly mistaken. Please can you clarify this statement. I was talking about the instuctor in freefall being able to affect the students safety.BASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #16 May 19, 2005 I thought I spelled it out pretty good in my first post, but I will expound: Often is the time when a first flight student blows an exit and then winds up pointing in the wrong direction (like back under the line of flight at Rantoul where we get out first). This, regardless of "other" jump experience. I cannot count the times that I have had to fly up and "corral" them back in a safe direction; it's routine. Likewise, it's very common for amped-up students to forget to do a practice pull up top. Being able to fly up alongside and give them the PRCP signal, then demonstrate it, gets them back on track. Getting them to do PRCP's prior to the actual pull is very important safety-wise in our opinion. People get scared during initial wingsuit dives for a number of reasons: "I can't move my arms!" and "it's time to pull and I hope I don't screw it up!" are the most common. Most people get over the first thing nearly immediately, but many, many people get very sketchy at pull time, no matter how thorough the ground class. Being able to fly right alongside them, smiling and shooting them hand and arm signals as well as prompting them into a better flight configuration really does wonders to relax them and, therefore, enhance the safety of the event. In conclusion, the instructor's ability to close on a student, get him flying efficiently, and making sure he is pointed in the right direction are all valid safety points. We do not require people with over 500 jumps to fly with a BMI, but we do require that anyone demoing one of our suits at our booth sit though the ground class (unless they can show documented proof of prior wingsuit experience). Most "experienced" (over 500 jumps) skydivers, however, choose to do their first flight with a BMI. Reason? They want to have someone next to them to "go to school" on so that they can more rapidly get the suit flying efficiently. We absolutely require that any 200 to 500 jump current skydiver jump with a BMI if they want to jump our demo suits. Chuck Blue D-12501 AFF/SL/TM-I, BMCI, PRO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #17 May 19, 2005 QuoteI was talking about the instuctor in freefall being able to affect the students safety. Not wanting to get into the the never ending debate of how and whom should be able to teach students to fly wingsuit, I don't think it's the direct safety of the student that is the only factor when a new wingsuit student takes to the air. Having a newly instructed wingsuit flyer, at only 200 jumps, be un stable and/or unaware and take the wrong flight path and collide with another skydiver that has opened his/her parachute, or for that matter take out a tandem under canopy, may be the end of an unregulated USPA discipline. Be safe. Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #18 May 19, 2005 Not wanting to get into the the never ending debate of how and whom should be able to teach students to fly wingsuit, I'm not touching this one with a ten foot pole! But....... I am LOVIN this! And now we return you to our regularly scheduled...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #19 May 19, 2005 QuoteThe requested URL /phoenix.htm was not found on this server. I broke it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie95 3 #20 May 19, 2005 Hey Ed & Chuck, there is no answer to this discussion, 2 different opinions exist and can co-exist. Lets take this offline. PM or email me: james@phoenix-fly.com Long flights, JamesBASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie95 3 #21 May 19, 2005 QuoteQuoteThe requested URL /phoenix.htm was not found on this server. I broke it That page no longer exists in the new structure. Check out www.phoenix-fly.com instead.BASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #22 May 19, 2005 QuoteI did not say that we do not make an air skills evaluation, we do How can you make an air skills evaluation if you don't see the student jump? Watch with binoculars? Or did I misunderstand your statement?www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KrisFlyZ 0 #23 May 19, 2005 QuoteQuoteI did not say that we do not make an air skills evaluation, we do How can you make an air skills evaluation if you don't see the student jump? Watch with binoculars? Or did I misunderstand your statement? Looks like two mutually exclusive statements to me. 1) The student jumps solo after being briefed by the instructor. 2) Before handing out the instructor rating, the candidate's air skills are evaluated. Kris. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie95 3 #24 May 19, 2005 Correct Kris, thanksBASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #25 May 19, 2005 QuoteHey Ed & Chuck, there is no answer to this discussion, 2 different opinions exist and can co-exist. Lets take this offline. PM or email me: james@phoenix-fly.com Long flights, James No one ever said that the 2 programs couldn't co-exist. And as a matter of fact, I think it's great that PF will have a representative of their company that will have to answer the questions.I'd have to say, through my years of jumping, instructing and safety have always been my main goal and it will continue to be. Be safe. Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
