Kicking legs during canopy flight

[chuckakers 426]

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>I don't really care to know if someone sees me, it's my job to see and avoid.

It's _everyone's_ job to see and avoid.

To me kicking is a good way of determining how big a risk someone is. If they are closing with me and will pass close to me they will get most of my attention - attention that is then not available to look elsewhere. Once I know they see me then I can afford to spend more of my time looking for other traffic.

Listen up kids. Bill knows what he's talking about.

This issue isn't so complicated. If the traffic is close enough to worry about it, it's close enough to communicate with for safety.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[chuckakers 426]

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All you guys arguing against this:
This is a good display of why we are having so much problems. People just don't give a shit about safety. Something so fucking simple and you can't bring yourself to do it. Not only that, but you want to argue against it.
Unfucking believable.

+1...unfortunately.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[BIGUN 1,393]

Bill, I'm asking you this for two reasons, your education and experience and that you still jump a Reflex (I think). Is it silly to ask about accelerated wear on the legstrap connection on the hip ring?

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[normiss 843]

It's also nice when it's one of my friends under canopy, then I know not only do they see me, but we can commence carving canopies around each other.

Seriously, how has this become such an issue?
It's just silly fun to see another canopy, kick your legs, "I see you too! Cool! Isn't skydiving beautiful???" kinda thing???

Lighten up Francis.

[SRI85 0]

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All you guys arguing against this:
This is a good display of why we are having so much problems. People just don't give a shit about safety. Something so fucking simple and you can't bring yourself to do it. Not only that, but you want to argue against it.
Unfucking believable.

horrible logic....if they didnt see them, they probably didnt see them kicking thier legs.

[CloudyHead 0]

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... shouldn't you keep a safe distance whether you see each other or not?

Now I understand your handle.

thanks for that comment dude. if you have seen me post before, i ALWAYS form my posts as questions to show full respect towards experienced jumpers and at the same time to acknowledge that i am very new to the sport and still have a lot to learn. I never say anything with a "know-it-all" attitude (something i hope i never have, even when i have 93 jumps!). I just question it -- so that i LEARN. My question was pretty valid considering that I consider my home DZ to be very professional and so i can't help but wonder why they have never taught me this safety measure.

Honestly i thought it was more important to maintain situational awareness on all traffic around you, whether you're waving at each other or not. Obviously there is more to it, and i respect this new information. Thanks.

[LDiCosimo 0]

I've never been taught this but...

This Past weekend after a pretty good 4way I saw another jumper semi near me under canopy who started kicking her legs while looking over at me. I couldn't tell if it was excitment after a fun jump or communication so I just kicked in response... It was comforting to know we both saw each other, I'll be keeping this up

[Scrumpot 1]

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Once I know they see me then I can afford to spend more of my time looking for other traffic.

That's the way I've always looked at it too. Just a quick added word-to-the-wise though on this ...be careful to also not allow that "okay - they've seen/acknowledged me" to also allow you to so completely dismiss that other acknowledging canopy/canopy pilot, to the point that it bites you in the arse.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[billvon 3,058]

>and that you still jump a Reflex (I think).

Two of them, actually - a bigger one for demos/water and a smaller one as a backup rig. (Sadly I think Burning Man put an end to the bigger one.)

>Is it silly to ask about accelerated wear on the legstrap connection on the hip ring?

Wear on the legstrap is a definite issue on Reflexes - indeed on any rigs that have articulations that allow the two leg straps to hit each other and slide around. The most common place for the legstraps to wear out, in my experience, is on the common surface of their passage through the hip ring (where the two pieces of webbing rub when the harness is loaded.)

However I think that 90% of the wear comes from people walking around in them and squirming around in the airplane, just because people walk around in them (and sit in them) for about 30 minutes out of each jump compared to a few minutes under canopy. And if you kick that's a few seconds, so I think that's a really minor factor.

[popsjumper 2]

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horrible logic.....if they didnt see them, they probably didnt see them kicking thier legs.

Well, no shit Sherlock.
Did you come up with that yourself or did somebody tell you?
*rolling eyes icon here*

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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I never say anything with a "know-it-all" attitude (something i hope i never have, even when i have 93 jumps!).

Good stuff Cloudy. Keep that good attitude and it'll save you some grief in the long run.

Be careful who you take advice from...especially those who lack experience. People like to be helpful. Sometimes it's nothing more than an ego thing. Most often it's based on a less-than-desirable foundation of knowledge and fact.

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I just question it -- so that i LEARN.

You're on it!

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so i can't help but wonder why they have never taught me this safety measure.

It's one of those things that have fallen by the wayside because of several reasons....generational differences seem to be prominent. Not everyone was taught this. Either it was not passed down to your guys or they elected the disregard it and not pass it on to you.

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Honestly i thought it was more important to maintain situational awareness on all traffic around you, whether you're waving at each other or not.

Absolutely! Kicking is one more thing we can do to help prevent collisions.....and it works. Seems to me that I'd want to do whatever I can to minimize that risk. Knowing the other guy sees me gives me a warm fuzzy.

Take note, though. Just because they see you now doesn't mean you can forget about them....head on a swivel and situational awareness always.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[topdocker 0]

The problems with "kicking cuz I saw you," is not that it isn't a good idea, it's that it is not specific enough.

Looking with a full face helmet at a direction and kicking may signal two people you see them, when you only see one.

Kicking your legs may signal to another canopy "I see you," but really it may be that you are trying to reach and collapse your slider that isn't quite all the way down, or you are excited about the dive, or there is a bee in your full face helmet.

Your definition of close and mine may be different. I consider myself close if I can read the writing on your gloves, you may consider me close if you can identify a canopy on the horizon.

People tend to fly where the are looking, just a natural tendency. So, if you are kicking your legs and looking for a response, you may be inadvertantly converging our paths. And if you are focusing on one canopy awaiting that response, you may be missing another danger lurking even closer. At that point in time, your head is no longer on a swivel, it is locked looking at one canopy.

Does seeing another canopy and knowing they see you change what you do? My answeris no, you still work to avoid them, so why are you wasting time, energy, and focus when gaining the knowledge does not change your response?

"The most dangerous canopy in the sky is the one you do not see." My repeated mantra whenever I am in traffic.

top

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[billvon 3,058]

>So, if you are kicking your legs and looking for a response, you may be inadvertantly
>converging our paths.

True. Best way to overcome that is to kick back, so the other person can go back to their scan.

>Does seeing another canopy and knowing they see you change what you do?

No - but it changes where I look. Situational awareness is key in many areas of aviation, and increasing that situational awareness helps prevent collisions.

Listen in on pattern chatter at uncontrolled airports some time. Quite often you will hear something like "Lufker unicom Baron 46 alpha on long final for 18" - "Baron this is Cessna 732 - don't have you on final. Turning base over the freeway." "Baron 46 is just past the freeway." "Still don't see you." "Baron 46, just past the freeway now, descending through 2000." "OK, got you."

After that you'll hear the chatter die down. Why? Because both are now aware of each other, know where they are, and can get back to the business of scanning for _other_ traffic, configuring for landing etc etc.

Does seeing that other airplane (and knowing they are aware of you) affect how either pilot flies? No. But does it affect their situational awareness? Absolutely.

[chuckakers 426]

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Once I know they see me then I can afford to spend more of my time looking for other traffic.

That's the way I've always looked at it too. Just a quick added word-to-the-wise though on this ...be careful to also not allow that "okay - they've seen/acknowledged me" to also allow you to so completely dismiss that other acknowledging canopy/canopy pilot, to the point that it bites you in the arse.

+1

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[chuckakers 426]

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I've never been taught this but...

This Past weekend after a pretty good 4way I saw another jumper semi near me under canopy who started kicking her legs while looking over at me. I couldn't tell if it was excitment after a fun jump or communication so I just kicked in response... It was comforting to know we both saw each other, I'll be keeping this up

And you don't even have to "kick". I usually just extend one leg well forward and bend the other one backwards at the knee toward my butt. It creates a position that is recognized as a gesture to the other jumper and usually met with a like-kind response.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[topdocker 0]

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>So, if you are kicking your legs and looking for a response, you may be inadvertantly
>converging our paths.

True. Best way to overcome that is to kick back, so the other person can go back to their scan.

>Does seeing another canopy and knowing they see you change what you do?

No - but it changes where I look. Situational awareness is key in many areas of aviation, and increasing that situational awareness helps prevent collisions.

Listen in on pattern chatter at uncontrolled airports some time. Quite often you will hear something like "Lufker unicom Baron 46 alpha on long final for 18" - "Baron this is Cessna 732 - don't have you on final. Turning base over the freeway." "Baron 46 is just past the freeway." "Still don't see you." "Baron 46, just past the freeway now, descending through 2000." "OK, got you."

After that you'll hear the chatter die down. Why? Because both are now aware of each other, know where they are, and can get back to the business of scanning for _other_ traffic, configuring for landing etc etc.

Does seeing that other airplane (and knowing they are aware of you) affect how either pilot flies? No. But does it affect their situational awareness? Absolutely.

Yes, but people being who they are.....

You kick (couple of seconds), awaited response (couple more seconds), kicked again more vigrously trying to ellicit response (couple more seconds), and awaited response (couple of more sceonds). Easily someone could spend ten seconds focused on one canopy and not scanning for other threats.

The radio analogy is fair at best. You can be plane-specific as to who you see or do not see and who you are talking to. Just because you are talking on the radio does not mean you are not scanning the sky with your eyes, you can listen and watch at the same time. And everyone nearby is on the same channel, hearing where traffic is located.

And do you really kick your legs on final at every canopy you see? Because at Eloy or Perris (or any other busy DZ), that would be like going to Jazzercise!

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[chuckakers 426]

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The problems with "kicking cuz I saw you," is not that it isn't a good idea, it's that it is not specific enough.

Looking with a full face helmet at a direction and kicking may signal two people you see them, when you only see one.

Kicking your legs may signal to another canopy "I see you," but really it may be that you are trying to reach and collapse your slider that isn't quite all the way down, or you are excited about the dive, or there is a bee in your full face helmet.

Your definition of close and mine may be different. I consider myself close if I can read the writing on your gloves, you may consider me close if you can identify a canopy on the horizon.

People tend to fly where the are looking, just a natural tendency. So, if you are kicking your legs and looking for a response, you may be inadvertantly converging our paths. And if you are focusing on one canopy awaiting that response, you may be missing another danger lurking even closer. At that point in time, your head is no longer on a swivel, it is locked looking at one canopy.

Does seeing another canopy and knowing they see you change what you do? My answeris no, you still work to avoid them, so why are you wasting time, energy, and focus when gaining the knowledge does not change your response?

"The most dangerous canopy in the sky is the one you do not see." My repeated mantra whenever I am in traffic.

top

Some people never stop. Using your logic, we shouldn't even look for traffic because we might turn toward it by accident.

Give it a rest, already. If you don't want to confirm visual identification of traffic with a simple mutual leg wave, don't. It seems to work nicely for those who do.

Geez brother, have a drink. Oh no WAIT - DON'T! You might spill it - or worse, you might drop the glass and it might break, and you might fall on the glass and cut a major artery. And the ambulance might have a wreck on the way to help you and kill a family in a car taking their new litter of adopted kittens home.

Geez.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[chuckakers 426]

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>So, if you are kicking your legs and looking for a response, you may be inadvertantly
>converging our paths.

True. Best way to overcome that is to kick back, so the other person can go back to their scan.

>Does seeing another canopy and knowing they see you change what you do?

No - but it changes where I look. Situational awareness is key in many areas of aviation, and increasing that situational awareness helps prevent collisions.

Listen in on pattern chatter at uncontrolled airports some time. Quite often you will hear something like "Lufker unicom Baron 46 alpha on long final for 18" - "Baron this is Cessna 732 - don't have you on final. Turning base over the freeway." "Baron 46 is just past the freeway." "Still don't see you." "Baron 46, just past the freeway now, descending through 2000." "OK, got you."

After that you'll hear the chatter die down. Why? Because both are now aware of each other, know where they are, and can get back to the business of scanning for _other_ traffic, configuring for landing etc etc.

Does seeing that other airplane (and knowing they are aware of you) affect how either pilot flies? No. But does it affect their situational awareness? Absolutely.

Forget it, Bill. These folks will argue against this long-standing general aviation best practice until everyone is blue in the face.

Some people just refuse to accept good ideas unless they think them up.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[billvon 3,058]

>You kick (couple of seconds), awaited response (couple more seconds),
>kicked again more vigrously trying to ellicit response (couple more
>seconds), and awaited response (couple of more sceonds).

No, because that would be stupid. See, identify course, kick, see if they kick. Total elapsed time about two seconds.

>And do you really kick your legs on final at every canopy you see?

Nope. Just ones that are a factor. I don't really care if the tandem 1000 feet above me sees me or not, because he's not going to be a risk for collision. But that guy headed straight for me at my level is.

[chuckakers 426]

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>So, if you are kicking your legs and looking for a response, you may be inadvertantly
>converging our paths.

True. Best way to overcome that is to kick back, so the other person can go back to their scan.

>Does seeing another canopy and knowing they see you change what you do?

No - but it changes where I look. Situational awareness is key in many areas of aviation, and increasing that situational awareness helps prevent collisions.

Listen in on pattern chatter at uncontrolled airports some time. Quite often you will hear something like "Lufker unicom Baron 46 alpha on long final for 18" - "Baron this is Cessna 732 - don't have you on final. Turning base over the freeway." "Baron 46 is just past the freeway." "Still don't see you." "Baron 46, just past the freeway now, descending through 2000." "OK, got you."

After that you'll hear the chatter die down. Why? Because both are now aware of each other, know where they are, and can get back to the business of scanning for _other_ traffic, configuring for landing etc etc.

Does seeing that other airplane (and knowing they are aware of you) affect how either pilot flies? No. But does it affect their situational awareness? Absolutely.

Yes, but people being who they are.....

You kick (couple of seconds), awaited response (couple more seconds), kicked again more vigrously trying to ellicit response (couple more seconds), and awaited response (couple of more sceonds). Easily someone could spend ten seconds focused on one canopy and not scanning for other threats.

The radio analogy is fair at best. You can be plane-specific as to who you see or do not see and who you are talking to. Just because you are talking on the radio does not mean you are not scanning the sky with your eyes, you can listen and watch at the same time. And everyone nearby is on the same channel, hearing where traffic is located.

And do you really kick your legs on final at every canopy you see? Because at Eloy or Perris (or any other busy DZ), that would be like going to Jazzercise!

top

You are clearly taking this to the extreme to fit your argument. No one said we should leg wave to every other canopy in the sky, just the traffic that could be a factor.

Additionally, mutual visual confirmation is typically not needed in the last few hundred feet as by then everyone should already be flying a predictable pattern.

Mutual visual confirmation is most valuable between opening and entering the pattern where there is no specific flight path for anyone.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[topdocker 0]

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The problems with "kicking cuz I saw you," is not that it isn't a good idea, it's that it is not specific enough.

Looking with a full face helmet at a direction and kicking may signal two people you see them, when you only see one.

Kicking your legs may signal to another canopy "I see you," but really it may be that you are trying to reach and collapse your slider that isn't quite all the way down, or you are excited about the dive, or there is a bee in your full face helmet.

Your definition of close and mine may be different. I consider myself close if I can read the writing on your gloves, you may consider me close if you can identify a canopy on the horizon.

People tend to fly where the are looking, just a natural tendency. So, if you are kicking your legs and looking for a response, you may be inadvertantly converging our paths. And if you are focusing on one canopy awaiting that response, you may be missing another danger lurking even closer. At that point in time, your head is no longer on a swivel, it is locked looking at one canopy.

Does seeing another canopy and knowing they see you change what you do? My answeris no, you still work to avoid them, so why are you wasting time, energy, and focus when gaining the knowledge does not change your response?

"The most dangerous canopy in the sky is the one you do not see." My repeated mantra whenever I am in traffic.

top

Some people never stop. Using your logic, we shouldn't even look for traffic because we might turn toward it by accident.

Give it a rest, already. If you don't want to confirm visual identification of traffic with a simple mutual leg wave, don't. It seems to work nicely for those who do.

Geez brother, have a drink. Oh no WAIT - DON'T! You might spill it - or worse, you might drop the glass and it might break, and you might fall on the glass and cut a major artery. And the ambulance might have a wreck on the way to help you and kill a family in a car taking their new litter of adopted kittens home.

Geez.

No, Chuck, I don't really care that much, just having a discussion. That is what this area is for, if I recall correctly. We call it "learning." Maybe, someone will convince me of the error of my ways, or I will convince them of my wisdom. Either way, we speak respectfully of each other and appreciate each other's viewpoint. And those lurking can learn the validity of both sides, and form their own opinion.

And don't talk about spilling my drink, that is a PA!

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[topdocker 0]

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>So, if you are kicking your legs and looking for a response, you may be inadvertantly
>converging our paths.

True. Best way to overcome that is to kick back, so the other person can go back to their scan.

>Does seeing another canopy and knowing they see you change what you do?

No - but it changes where I look. Situational awareness is key in many areas of aviation, and increasing that situational awareness helps prevent collisions.

Listen in on pattern chatter at uncontrolled airports some time. Quite often you will hear something like "Lufker unicom Baron 46 alpha on long final for 18" - "Baron this is Cessna 732 - don't have you on final. Turning base over the freeway." "Baron 46 is just past the freeway." "Still don't see you." "Baron 46, just past the freeway now, descending through 2000." "OK, got you."

After that you'll hear the chatter die down. Why? Because both are now aware of each other, know where they are, and can get back to the business of scanning for _other_ traffic, configuring for landing etc etc.

Does seeing that other airplane (and knowing they are aware of you) affect how either pilot flies? No. But does it affect their situational awareness? Absolutely.

Yes, but people being who they are.....

You kick (couple of seconds), awaited response (couple more seconds), kicked again more vigrously trying to ellicit response (couple more seconds), and awaited response (couple of more sceonds). Easily someone could spend ten seconds focused on one canopy and not scanning for other threats.

The radio analogy is fair at best. You can be plane-specific as to who you see or do not see and who you are talking to. Just because you are talking on the radio does not mean you are not scanning the sky with your eyes, you can listen and watch at the same time. And everyone nearby is on the same channel, hearing where traffic is located.

And do you really kick your legs on final at every canopy you see? Because at Eloy or Perris (or any other busy DZ), that would be like going to Jazzercise!

top

You are clearly taking this to the extreme to fit your argument. No one said we should leg wave to every other canopy in the sky, just the traffic that could be a factor.

Additionally, mutual visual confirmation is typically not needed in the last few hundred feet as by then everyone should already be flying a predictable pattern.

Mutual visual confirmation is most valuable between opening and entering the pattern where there is no specific flight path for anyone.

See, now the newbies have learned something!

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[SRI85 0]

i prefer to yell at other people under canopy if they are a factor.

[chuckakers 426]

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The problems with "kicking cuz I saw you," is not that it isn't a good idea, it's that it is not specific enough.

Looking with a full face helmet at a direction and kicking may signal two people you see them, when you only see one.

Kicking your legs may signal to another canopy "I see you," but really it may be that you are trying to reach and collapse your slider that isn't quite all the way down, or you are excited about the dive, or there is a bee in your full face helmet.

Your definition of close and mine may be different. I consider myself close if I can read the writing on your gloves, you may consider me close if you can identify a canopy on the horizon.

People tend to fly where the are looking, just a natural tendency. So, if you are kicking your legs and looking for a response, you may be inadvertantly converging our paths. And if you are focusing on one canopy awaiting that response, you may be missing another danger lurking even closer. At that point in time, your head is no longer on a swivel, it is locked looking at one canopy.

Does seeing another canopy and knowing they see you change what you do? My answeris no, you still work to avoid them, so why are you wasting time, energy, and focus when gaining the knowledge does not change your response?

"The most dangerous canopy in the sky is the one you do not see." My repeated mantra whenever I am in traffic.

top

Some people never stop. Using your logic, we shouldn't even look for traffic because we might turn toward it by accident.

Give it a rest, already. If you don't want to confirm visual identification of traffic with a simple mutual leg wave, don't. It seems to work nicely for those who do.

Geez brother, have a drink. Oh no WAIT - DON'T! You might spill it - or worse, you might drop the glass and it might break, and you might fall on the glass and cut a major artery. And the ambulance might have a wreck on the way to help you and kill a family in a car taking their new litter of adopted kittens home.

Geez.

No, Chuck, I don't really care that much, just having a discussion. That is what this area is for, if I recall correctly. We call it "learning." Maybe, someone will convince me of the error of my ways, or I will convince them of my wisdom. Either way, we speak respectfully of each other and appreciate each other's viewpoint. And those lurking can learn the validity of both sides, and form their own opinion.

And don't talk about spilling my drink, that is a PA!

top

Never confuse opinions with wisdom.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[chuckakers 426]

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i prefer to yell at other people under canopy if they are a factor.

What about:

1. Full-face helmets (diminished hearing ability & diminished vocal volume)

2. Audibles (additional blockage to the ear and thus further diminished hearing)

3. fast canopies (greater wind noise)

4. hearing impairments (like us old guys)

5. directional identification problems (see numbers 1, 2, 3, and 4)

Unfortunately hearing is the most adversely affected of the human senses by the skydiving environment and our truly amazing equipment.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX