Kicking legs during canopy flight

[SRI85 0]

All valid points, but i just dont think this leg kicking business is a real answer. I dont think it would have prevented any of these canopy collisions. Theres a large blind spot to everyone under canopy. it would be impossible to acknowledge someone in that blind spot.

If legkicking makes you feel more comfortable go for it...I just dont think its the answer to the problem.

i think we have all been taught the answer, its just a matter of complacency.

[Divalent 139]

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... shouldn't you keep a safe distance whether you see each other or not?

Now I understand your handle.

thanks for that comment dude. ...

Sorry, no disrespect was intended. That comment by me was an attempt at gentle humor, but in retrospect I can see how it can be misconstrued. As I wrote the comment, I was pretty sure you didn't intend to say what you actually said. (But given your handle, it was too tempting to not to take a swing.) Unfortunately, there is no icon you can insert in a message that means "just ribbing ya!".

BTW, I like to think of myself as a questioning kind of guy, too. I don't just want to know what to do, I want to understand why, and these sorts of discussion are very good at exposing the basis for things. (and the best discussions are ones where there is a difference of opinion.)

Peace

[chuckakers 426]

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All valid points, but i just dont think this leg kicking business is a real answer. I dont think it would have prevented any of these canopy collisions. Theres a large blind spot to everyone under canopy. it would be impossible to acknowledge someone in that blind spot.

If legkicking makes you feel more comfortable go for it...I just dont think its the answer to the problem.

i think we have all been taught the answer, its just a matter of complacency.

No one said it's the answer to the canopy collision issue and no one said that it will cure any kind of blind spot issue either. It is one small detail among many that will - hopefully - contribute to solving it.

As I have said in past posts, solving the collision issue is a matter of asking the right questions in post-accident investigations to get a full understanding of the causes, but no one seems to be interested in doing that.

Mutual traffic identification communication may not solve the problem, but it is a step in the right direction.

On a more interesting note, how do you figure the answer is just one of complacency (your words)? I don't know that there's any evidence that complacency is the sole root cause any of the collisions that are plaguing the sport.

If, as you say, "we have all been taught the answer", why does the collision problem persist?

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[popsjumper 2]

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All valid points, but i just dont think this leg kicking business is a real answer. I dont think it would have prevented any of these canopy collisions.

If you are looking for end-all panaceas, you're in the wrong business.
If you prefer to discount safety issues because they don't solve all problems, you in the wrong business.
If you think your level of experience trumps everything else, you're in the wrong business.

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Theres a large blind spot to everyone under canopy. it would be impossible to acknowledge someone in that blind spot.

Did I mention, no shit Sherlock?

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Theres a large blind spot to everyone under canopy. it would be impossible to acknowledge someone in that blind spot.

So, since there's a blind spot, let's do nothing to help avoid collisions. Right. Got it.

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If legkicking makes you feel more comfortable go for it...I just dont think its the answer to the problem.

See above.

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i think we have all been taught the answer, its just a matter of complacency.

So, in your infinite wisdom, what IS the answer?
If you think all people are perfect and mistakes only happen because of "complacency" you are sadly mistaken.

"Complacency"...nice how you are picking the skydiving lingo at least.

Keep plugging away, though. You're young and making statements such as those are one way to learn.... IF you are willing to keep an open mind and use it.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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Unfortunately, there is no icon you can insert in a message that means "just ribbing ya!".

Yes, there is....

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[SRI85 0]

Cool, then i guess what we should do is put transponders and radios on everyone and correspond with ATC to fly us in. Problem solved.

[strop45 0]

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Cool, then i guess what we should do is put transponders and radios on everyone and correspond with ATC to fly us in. Problem solved.

Whats your objection to kicking your legs? This is the first I've heard of it, and I'm with Andy and Chuck on this one. Its something you can do with minimal effort and I think it would be useful.

At a boogie I got caught out of position (downwind and struggling to get back). I ended up joining the pattern face to face with the other jumpers and a little low. I watched a jumper who was about 200 or 300' higher than me turn across the wind and turned to follow him... He then turned 180 degrees and flew straight back at me. I was aware of him throughout his turns, but would have much happier to know he had seen me. I wasn't in any danger, but given his strange 180 degree turn had to give him lots of room as I considered he hadn't seen me. If I had known he could see me, I would have been able to fly closer to him.

Did I need to fly closer? On this occasion no, but if I had been 100' lower then I would have been looking either flying closer to him or landing on a building or a road with power wires all over the place.

Stay safe

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[DSE 5]

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All valid points, but i just dont think this leg kicking business is a real answer. I dont think it would have prevented any of these canopy collisions. Theres a large blind spot to everyone under canopy. it would be impossible to acknowledge someone in that blind spot.

If legkicking makes you feel more comfortable go for it...I just dont think its the answer to the problem.

i think we have all been taught the answer, its just a matter of complacency.

Yelling did not help the incident of 8.30.2011. The surviving man was yelling to the deceased.
Neither of them deviated. We'll never know if the deceased heard the yelling, but kicking might have gotten someone's attention.
Is leg kicking the only answer? Of course not. But it is a valuable tool in what may be a rapidly shrinking number of options.

[shropshire 0]

As a motorcyclist - I NEVER assume that someone has seen me even if they Flash their lights - so Why on Earth would I assume that some one has seen me in the sky just because they Kicked their legs?


(people kick their legs for a whole bunch of reasons ... they ache, along to music in the head - what ever...) - It's not a signal that I'm betting my life on, that's f'sure.


Treat EVERYONE like they have NO CLUE that you are there and you might survive.... Complacency Kills ..... NEVER ASSUME.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[nigel99 558]

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Your definition of close and mine may be different. I consider myself close if I can read the writing on your gloves, you may consider me close if you can identify a canopy on the horizon.

Maybe because you do CRW this stuff is canopy piloting for dummies. In CRW how do you keep track of each other and communicate when everything goes wrong? I assume that under normal circumstances you have a dive plan that people are following so that makes it easier.

Like Tony (Shropshire) says on a motorbike you have to assume that nobody has seen you even if they flash their lights (I've personally had people flash and it other drivers "assume" that it is for them.

I must admit that the kicking legs sounds good as a "hello mate", it is also true that kicking actually makes you stand out as a stationary object is harder to see. But I do see significant weakness's with canopies averaging 30MPh+ it doesn't take long for someone to move from where you know they are to a dangerous spot.

Once you have drawn attention to each other with your "leg wave" how do you react appropriately?

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[JackC1 0]

If someone is close enough to me to be a worry, I'll be able to see where they're looking. If it isn't directly at me, waving isn't going to help much. If it is, then they've already seen me. I think my time is better spent turning to fly in a safer direction than waving back at them.

Besides people kick for all sorts of reasons, it doesn't mean a thing.

[DBCOOPER 5]

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Is leg kicking the only answer? Of course not. But it is a valuable tool in what may be a rapidly shrinking number of options.

The OP never heard of it. I never heard of it. I was never taught this. I don't teach this. Its like the special prejump handshake thats different depending who's in the airplane with you. If the consensus is its another tool in the tool box make it the standard. Put it in the ISP where group skills are taught. Right now its seems to be like a safety meeting. You only know about it if you know about it.

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[popsjumper 2]

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It's not a signal that I'm betting my life on, that's f'sure.

As is nothing else. There are no absolutes in skydiving.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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Cool, then i guess what we should do is put transponders and radios on everyone and correspond with ATC to fly us in. Problem solved.

Well, there's a mature response. Thanks.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[normiss 843]

Do you ever move the bike a bit to make sure they see you???



This is just getting silly people.

[MikeJD 0]

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Theres a large blind spot to everyone under canopy.

But if they're in your blind spot, or you are in theirs, you wouldn't be signalling them in the first place.

If I can see a canopy but I can't see its pilot, then I have to assume that s/he doesn't know I'm there - and act accordingly.

It seems to me that opinion in this thread is roughly split between those in favour of leg kicking, and those who've never tried it.

[DSE 5]

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Is leg kicking the only answer? Of course not. But it is a valuable tool in what may be a rapidly shrinking number of options.

The OP never heard of it. I never heard of it. I was never taught this. I don't teach this. Its like the special prejump handshake thats different depending who's in the airplane with you. If the consensus is its another tool in the tool box make it the standard. Put it in the ISP where group skills are taught. Right now its seems to be like a safety meeting. You only know about it if you know about it.

I was taught this during my "coached jumps" period. I teach this (It's not really a "teach" but a "tell"). Most DZ's I've been to, whether it's US, Middle East, Canada, Australia...folks know what it means, and they respond.
Even if you don't know it's a "standard," If you see that someone is kicking their legs as an "I see you" (maybe because they're being funny, maybe it's music, maybe it's that a bug is in their crotch, but you DO see them....mission accomplished.

Until this thread, I didn't realize it wasn't a "standard."

[diablopilot 2]

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Listen in on pattern chatter at uncontrolled airports some time. Quite often you will hear something like "Lufker unicom Baron 46 alpha on long final for 18" - "Baron this is Cessna 732 - don't have you on final. Turning base over the freeway." "Baron 46 is just past the freeway." "Still don't see you." "Baron 46, just past the freeway now, descending through 2000." "OK, got you."

And while those two retards are blocking the freq both at Lufker and the other airport within 100 miles that uses the same Freq, I'm busy scanning and setting up my pattern.

After they have finished their tea party, I'll make my 3 brief, concise position reports (or not if it's unneeded, or I'm unable) and then put all my focus of doing my best to make sure I don't transfer paint with another airplane.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[billvon 3,058]

>And while those two retards are blocking the freq both at Lufker and the
>other airport within 100 miles that uses the same Freq, I'm busy scanning and
>setting up my pattern.

. . . and closing with the other "retard" who doesn't want to "waste time" communicating either.

It is rarely a mistake to communicate more when there's traffic. Given that we are seeing more and more collisions in the pattern, this is more important than ever.

[chuckakers 426]

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Cool, then i guess what we should do is put transponders and radios on everyone and correspond with ATC to fly us in. Problem solved.

350 jumps and 1 year +/- in the sport and you're schooling a guy with thousands of jumps and shitpots of hardened experience?

Take it home and give it a bone, my man. I believe in taking good advise no matter where it comes from, but you are (no PA intended) a joke.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[popsjumper 2]

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It is rarely a mistake to communicate more when there's traffic. Given that we are seeing more and more collisions in the pattern, this is more important than ever.

Alas, some get it, some don't.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[SRI85 0]

I love how excited you old men get when a younger jumper dares to question your opinion....How about you scroll through the incident forum and take an accident and explain how an acknowledgement of leg kicking would have prevented it?

Ill stick to my plan of anticipating every other canopy to do something stupid.

[Scrumpot 1]

So glad that you've so obviously, and so thoroughly got absolutely everything all figured out.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0BIwcRaFZY&feature=related

Of course you are absolutely right. Leg-kicking between actually either one of YOU (at approx the 2:00 mark in sparkling example of your clear and obvious mad-skillz we are all just jealous of is all) - if EITHER ONE OF YOU had even as much as a 90' off-heading opening here between you, wouldn't have mattered one iota.

You just keep-on-keepin' on there Butch, and completely dismissing and discounting EXPERIENCED advice being given. It's all only old farts trying to hold you down. You clearly already know better.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[popsjumper 2]

Meh

Anonymous, ashamed to reveal himself, posting as "That Guy"....meh...to be expected, I guess.

I like his profile, though
"Crossfire 2 99 ft² (1.57 lbs/ft²)"
Mad skillz anyone?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[joephus 0]

All leg kicks are doing is providing you with more information about your surroundings. It's a little packet of information that you can add to the overall picture you use to make decisions.

It is a half second process of "I see you. You see me. I now have more information about my surroundings than I did before".

How anyone can argue that having less information is the way to go is beyond me.