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The111 1
Ditto. Big wings, back vents.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com
LukeH 0
you can't just stick back inlets onto the existing wing design.
the shape of the wing must be altered to give a compromise between the best shape for belly to earth and back to earth. then the wing is no longer the maximum glide machine. the mylar ribs would also need to change, probably reducing their effectiveness.
you end up with an expensive suit that doesn't have maximum performance, is difficult to aerobatically fly because of the large wing area, and very difficuly for your fellow flockers to keep up with when you fly on your back because you can't bend your knees!
if you want a max performance suit buy the warbird - V2, if you want a good aerobatic suit buy the Acro. if you want a middle of the road, jack of all trades, try the Phantom with back inlets. if you want to have your cake, eat it and get jam on top... keep dreaming.
many skydivers buy the V1/V2 just so they can be seen to have the 'BEST' suit, then they fly it mainly in flocks at a GR of <1.0! Ego gets in the way of buying the most suitable WS for your needs.
the shape of the wing must be altered to give a compromise between the best shape for belly to earth and back to earth. then the wing is no longer the maximum glide machine. the mylar ribs would also need to change, probably reducing their effectiveness.
you end up with an expensive suit that doesn't have maximum performance, is difficult to aerobatically fly because of the large wing area, and very difficuly for your fellow flockers to keep up with when you fly on your back because you can't bend your knees!
if you want a max performance suit buy the warbird - V2, if you want a good aerobatic suit buy the Acro. if you want a middle of the road, jack of all trades, try the Phantom with back inlets. if you want to have your cake, eat it and get jam on top... keep dreaming.
many skydivers buy the V1/V2 just so they can be seen to have the 'BEST' suit, then they fly it mainly in flocks at a GR of <1.0! Ego gets in the way of buying the most suitable WS for your needs.
QuoteDitto. Big wings, back vents.
One thing we have seen in last couple of years are suits designed for more specific roles. Be it beginner, acrobatic or performance.
Trying to make a suit that does everything means that compromises have to be made.
To make the V2 fly efficiently on the back would be a nightmare. (changing the 3D arm wing shape, replacing all the cambered airfoils, butt deflector? etc).
But who knows what else that Croatian guy has got in mind
J
BASEstore.it
The111 1
QuoteTo make the V2 fly efficiently on the back would be a nightmare. (changing the 3D arm wing shape, replacing all the cambered airfoils, butt deflector? etc).
Sure, you may not be able to make it fly super efficiently on the back. But I would think that even a inefficiently shaped inflated wing would be better than backflying on a deflated (effectively single skin) wing, which is what people are doing now. These deflated wings flap around a lot and cause a lot of muscle strain (and suit wear). The simple act of inflating them would make backflying a lot smoother, regardless of the shape.
I'm not asking for 3:1 glide ratios here.
We are not super effective airfoils anyway, to begin with, despite what any manufacturer says about their complex 3D CAD design (not knocking you here, just stating my opinion). Any efficient wing would laugh at 3:1 glide ratio.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com
gus 1
I couldn't care less how my V2 flies on its back. I want to be the fastest motherfucker in the valley and I don't want my suit compromised.
Gus
Gus
OutpatientsOnline.com
LukeH 0
QuoteSure, you may not be able to make it fly super efficiently on the back. But I would think that even a inefficiently shaped inflated wing would be better than backflying on a deflated (effectively single skin) wing
when robi designs something he designs it to be the best at what it is for. not just for hype or marketing reasons.
if he just stuck the bacvk vents on it it wouldn't fly well on the back, and people would be critical because it has back vents and doesn't fly well on the back. it would raise the retail cost and be little more than a marketing gimmick. kinda like sticking body armour into a suit
QuoteWe are not super effective airfoils anyway, to begin with,
true, and there are obvious limitations of the human form. however when you add a state of the art wingsuit we fly a LOT better than without it. so the suit is very effective at improving the airfoil. it's not a far stretch to see how 3D Cad could be very useful in the design process, probably more useful than wind tunnel testing of non- rigid wings! but definitely not as cool or useful for marketing
The111 1
QuoteQuoteDitto. Big wings, back vents.
To make the V2 fly efficiently on the back would be a nightmare. (changing the 3D arm wing shape, replacing all the cambered airfoils, butt deflector? etc).
All I said was big wings. I did not say Vampire. Perhaps you can call it an HPA (Hi Performance Acro).
Or perhaps somebody else can make one.www.WingsuitPhotos.com
The111 1
Quoteif he just stuck the bacvk vents on it it wouldn't fly well on the back
I did not ask for a Vampire with stick-on backvents. I said that I would like a suit with big wings that inflated in any orientation. The Acro does that task very well with medium wings; it is not unreasonable to believe a similar suit with larger wings could be designed.
Quoteit's not a far stretch to see how 3D Cad could be very useful in the design process, probably more useful than wind tunnel testing of non- rigid wings! but definitely not as cool or useful for marketing
CAD would do very little without CFD. But perhaps since more people know what CAD means it is thrown around a lot as a marketing tool? I am not criticizing PF, I am criticizing you for bringing the brandwar where it does not belong. Both "sides" of the brandwar make great suits and both sides market their suits (what smart company does not)? There are both good and bad things I could say about each company too, and if I told you which company I favor it might surprise you. But that it NOT the point of this thread, and favoring one company does not mean you have to talk shit about the other.
Yes, CFD can be useful in designing a wing. Of course it can. My original comment about "3D CAD" was not a knock on Robi or PF, it was in support of my comment that with the current style of wingsuit, there's not a whole lot more efficiency to be bled out of the 3D surface of the wing (the inefficiencies are elsewhere).
Lastly, discounting wind tunnel testing as useless is ridiculous. Do you know where the numerical models used to power CFD codes come from? Guess. WIND TUNNELS. Aerodynamics has always been an experimental science.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com
LukeH 0
hey matt,
i guess i should have used lots of
sarcastic emoticons in my post, it was not meant to be taken so seriously.
although my post was a reply to yours, not all of the comments were directed at you, i know you didn't ask for a Vampire with backvents. my comments apply to any suit with very large wings regardless of what it is called. i don't think large wings and aerobatics are well suited to each other for many reasons.
i'm not into brand wars. however i will call a spade a spade (i literally doubled over laughing when i first read about the Impact but that is a different story.)
i doubt that wind tunnel testing of non-rigid wings is worth the effort and expense in terms of performance gains. that is not to say that data from other tests can't be put to good use in the design of non-rigid wings.
i really believe that sticking a guy in a tunnel in a suit and posting the pictures and video benefitted the marketing much more than the suit design.
while i was poking a little fun with those comments, i don't consider it talking shit.
trotting out the same suit with 2 or 3 different names does drive sales of suits to the people that have more money than sense and have to have the latest thing (good business sense) but doesn't give a good impression of their innovation WS design abilities.
at the end of the day the proof is in the flying. i've heard a lot about the Vampire killing Blade, i've yet to see one or fly one. for a while i thought it was Vaporware. perhaps it is a very good suit, we shall see whenever it gets released.
apologies if i offended!
i guess i should have used lots of
sarcastic emoticons in my post, it was not meant to be taken so seriously.
although my post was a reply to yours, not all of the comments were directed at you, i know you didn't ask for a Vampire with backvents. my comments apply to any suit with very large wings regardless of what it is called. i don't think large wings and aerobatics are well suited to each other for many reasons.
i'm not into brand wars. however i will call a spade a spade (i literally doubled over laughing when i first read about the Impact but that is a different story.)
i doubt that wind tunnel testing of non-rigid wings is worth the effort and expense in terms of performance gains. that is not to say that data from other tests can't be put to good use in the design of non-rigid wings.
i really believe that sticking a guy in a tunnel in a suit and posting the pictures and video benefitted the marketing much more than the suit design.
while i was poking a little fun with those comments, i don't consider it talking shit.
trotting out the same suit with 2 or 3 different names does drive sales of suits to the people that have more money than sense and have to have the latest thing (good business sense) but doesn't give a good impression of their innovation WS design abilities.
at the end of the day the proof is in the flying. i've heard a lot about the Vampire killing Blade, i've yet to see one or fly one. for a while i thought it was Vaporware. perhaps it is a very good suit, we shall see whenever it gets released.
apologies if i offended!
Guys,
Just ask Medusa how to fly inflated Vampire on your back. No back vents needed! You may need to point your toes backwards to put your booties on, though!
Yuri
Just ask Medusa how to fly inflated Vampire on your back. No back vents needed!
You may need to point your toes backwards to put your booties on, though!
Yuri
Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio
Funny you should ask that, Glen! I asked Robi the exact same thing at Flock and Dock about the V2. I asked wouldn't it have been just as easy to put a set of Acro top vents on the suit instead of the Phantom-style ones both of the prototypes had. He told me that he really didn't think that many people were interersted in backflying their Vampires and that it was meant to be just a "top performance" suit. I am not convinced, but hey, it's not my company. I DO know that there are a bunch of motherfuckers at the "very-experienced" wingsuit pilot level who fly their Vampires (and other top-end BirdMan variants) on their backs these days. I would love to have a V-something with acro-type top vents personally.
Chuck
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