flatspin video on SM.com

[The111 1]

CLICK

Some thoughts:

1) The spin did not seem that bad before the wing cutaway. There were several moments when it almost stopped completely but then picked up a bit of momentum again. It wasn't so much a flat spin as a random tumble.

2) After the wing cutaway, it seemed to get worse. Not immediately, but eventually it seemed to turn from a weird tumble into a true backspin (with the sky spinning around center frame, very quickly).

Something about this video still confuses me. Not sure what it is. It also seemed weird how easily the person rolled over at the end, after fighting it for so long.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[TALONSKY 0]

I think one thing when flying wingsuits you should keep in mind, once the wings are cut away you have lost some control of the wing material ( how it inflats and how it flaps behind your arms). I notice they were on their back for most of the flight, I would think getting belly to earth as soon as possible would have been a great start after the intial balling up after the flat spin
That is one scary video.

[Buried 0]

comment from the person who submitted the vid

Quote

Though the spining was interesting... ;-) I finally got tired of it and turned over deploying at 5000ft

curious if they were just playing a little bit. The spin didn't seem that bad. Too bad there is no outside video of the spin

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[TALONSKY 0]

It seems early on one of the first steps they did was to cut away the wings. I personally use that option as the very last option in any wingsuit malfuction outside of being too low (such as low open reserve ride)
Kirk

[Deuce 1]

Quote

Something about this video still confuses me. Not sure what it is. It also seemed weird how easily the person rolled over at the end, after fighting it for so long.

Yeah, me too.

My first S3 jump was out of a Cessna and I was spinning like that for the first 20 seconds or so. Very violently like towards the end of that video. I tried everything and as a last resort opened the wings and tail and arched and BAMMO everything was fine and I was flying.

I suspect the subject in this video arched to get belly to earth before pulling. I also wonder why they chopped the wings so quickly. That tail sitting out there without wings is really going to keep you flipping over.

[notsane 0]

The only part of your body that's able to cause a spin this bad is the leg wing. You'll notice that the person's legs are not pulled up tight to the body even though they've closed the leg wing.

Once they were on their back and spinning things weren't going to get any better until either those legs were pulled up tight or they rolled over.

If you're on your back spinning like this grab your knees with your hands and pull tight. If you wait too long G forces may make this impossible. React quickly when you spin!

I've watched some very good people get in trouble when they waited too long to correct the situation.

[freeflysoul 0]

I've seen this video on DVD during my BMI Course last weekend...
Jari told me it was a real $hitty situation...
I agree with you I'd prefer to cutaway my wings only as last option. However, of course, it depends how was the experience of the jumper with that suit...
Glad the jumper walked away uneventful!

3,2,1,C-YA!!!
V.
BASE #1075 / BMI #I-002 / PFI #042 / EGI #104

[bodypilot1 0]

Anyone know the experience level of the person?
Cutting away the wings that fast leads me to think they don't have much?
They said they were bumped on exit, but I didn't see anyone even close to them.


Be safe
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[leoholanda 0]

Did you also use the LQRS? I had already a flatspin in my S3 once. I didn't cut the arm wings. I tried to play with the arms position but that was no effect and I noticed that most of the spin effect was being caused by the leg wing when I started to play with the legs position (I have disability in my right leg). But I was one able to get rid of the spin going to the "ball" position, cutaway was not necessary.

Is that true? Most of the effect to the spin is caused by the leg wing?

Quote

2) After the wing cutaway, it seemed to get worse. Not immediately, but eventually it seemed to turn from a weird tumble into a true backspin (with the sky spinning around center frame, very quickly).

Leo Holanda

[The111 1]

Quote

Did you also use the LQRS?

It wasn't me in the video. I've had many spins/tumbles (exits/burbles/acrobatics/etc)... only one or two required balling up but that method is foolproof, for the S3 at least. I don't expect I'll ever cutaway any wing in freefall, in this suit.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[leoholanda 0]

Sorry, i didn't pay attention i the part you wrote "how easily the person rolled over at the end"

But my question still remains: the root cause of the spin is the leg wing or it can also be caused by arm wings?

Quote

It wasn't me in the video.

Leo Holanda

[LouDiamond 1]

After a series of e-mails with the person(s) involved in that incident, I asked they post that video to SDM.com so that everyone can learn from this incident. There are several learning points that can be gained from this incident and the first person perspective the video offers. The jumper eventually did the right thing and that is they regained a stable position and deployed stable, thus saving their life. Had they followed proper procedures this entire event would of been over in a matter of seconds and they could of continued the flight.

FIRST LEARNING POINT
For those who want to start flying a wingsuit prior to the recommended minimums due to a suits ease of use or features or without receiving proper training: No matter how easy it is to fly a wingsuit, it is not a normal skydive just like a tandem isn't a normal skydive. Flying a wingsuit is not particularly hard.However, when things go bad, they usually go bad quickly and having the proper training and prescence of mind to handle the situation is critical. THERE IS NO SUBSTITUE FOR PROPER TRAINING OR EXPERIENCE, PERIOD

SECOND LEARNING POINT
The jumper involved is of average wingsuit experience and had not had any issues up until that point. The jumper thought they knew what the right procedures were to stop a spin. However it is evident from their actions that they were not completly clear on what those procedures are. While the jumper attempted to close everything down, they failed to bring their knees up towards their chest and actualy "ball up" or cannon ball. When one finds themselves in a flat spin the first reaction should be to "ball up" as tightly as possible. Failure to do so will result in your continuing to spin and an increase in G forces until you pass out or stop the spin. "Balling up" means that ones legs are together and the knees are brought to the chest as tightly as possible and the arms brought in to ones sides, elbows preferably touching ones torso.

THIRD LEARNING POINT
Not "balling up" completely will result in your basically becoming a helicopter blade. Flat spins will more than likely have you in a back to earth configuration at some point if not for the duration of the event. Stopping or breaking the flat spin is the #1 priority. Once that G inducing flat spin is stopped, the next step one should be concerned with is regaining stability and a belly to earth orientation. This requires one to make an effort to find the ground while rotating through possibly all axis. Once the spin is broken, it turns into a rotating tumble and is manageable as long as one makes an effort to orient themselves and maintains the balled up position. Once the ground is located and the jumper makes an attempt to regain a belly to earth type orientation, the arm wings should be opened up. At this stage any residual rotation should stop and the legs can be extended and the leg wing opened back up and normal flight resumed.

FOURTH LEARNING POINT
Cutting the arm wings away is not going to stop a flat spin. Focusing on trying to cut away ones wings while on their back and spinning uncontrolably is a waste of valuable time. As seen in the video, the jumpers rate and violence of spinning actually started to increase after they managed to cut the arm wings away. Once the arm wings are cut away the jumper has zero control over the arm wing fabric. The arm wings will continue to catch air and partially if not fully inflate, there by creating more surface area for the spin to work with. Likewise, cutting ones leg wing or pulling the LQRS will have a similar effect and result.


If you fly a wingsuit for any amount of time, you will eventually experience a moment of instability and /or a flat spin that will require you to act immediately. Instability and flat spins are easy to recover from if one is quick to react properly to the situation. It is entirely possible to encounter a flat spin or moment of instability and regain ones ability to fly. If you ever perform acrobatics or fly in flocks you will have to deal with this usually on exit or when someone bumps you inside of a flock. The key is not wasting time and following proper procedures when this does occur.

I cover this a bit more in depth in Skyflying, Wingsuits in Motion and it will also be one of the topics that I cover during the wingsuit seminar during the Dropzone.com Holiday boogie. If any one has any questions, please feel free to PM or e-mail me

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[nicknitro71 0]

FIFTH LEARNING POINT

Read Scott's post few times

Memento Audere Semper

903

[medusa 0]

I've seen people getting away from a spin with less balling up that the one in the video.

Here is a theory:
”Is just a theory, you don’t need to hang me”

You can see in the video, that the guy is leaning to the left and he is also looking in that direction.

I remember in my Solo AFF my instructor told me that if I start spinning I have to look to the other direction of the spin, and it work just fine!!!

Could this be a factor in a spin??
.

Medusa

Get Killed or Die Trying!
Patent pending ATFK15456

[phoenixlpr 0]

Oh, God!

Its a really scary stuff. It should be show all ws-pilot wannabe!

[voodew1 0]

Quote

The jumper eventually did the right thing and that is they regained a stable position and deployed stable, thus saving their life.

Ummmm.... maybe you should reword this to say something like ---- the jumper was able to regain stabilty and pull in the proper orientation --- had this not been possible the jumper should have pulled while in the spin at a resonable altitude to deal with the line twist/possible malfunction.

Don't spend the rest of your life trying to get stable should be the message --- you can survive pulling unstable.

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[bodypilot1 0]

Quote

Quote

The jumper eventually did the right thing and that is they regained a stable position and deployed stable, thus saving their life.

Ummmm.... maybe you should reword this to say something like ---- the jumper was able to regain stabilty and pull in the proper orientation --- had this not been possible the jumper should have pulled while in the spin at a resonable altitude to deal with the line twist/possible malfunction.

Don't spend the rest of your life trying to get stable should be the message --- you can survive pulling unstable.

You just said it. No need to rewrite it.



Be safe
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[dploi 0]

Here's the real lesson: don't fuck up.

[MarkM 0]

Reminds me of my first spin. I could've recovered much earlier in the spin, but expected I'd stabailize a bit more so held the ball-up. But after a bit the forces just get to you, you lose strength and end up in a worse situation.

Maybe "react fast and recover early" should be the lesson.

[VectorBoy 0]

they failed to bring their knees up towards their chest and actualy "ball up" or cannon ball. When one finds themselves in a flat spin the first reaction should be to "ball up" as tightly as possible. Failure to do so will result in your continuing to spin and an increase in G forces until you pass out or stop the spin.

[fueler 0]

sweet. now how do i see it larger than 1" by 1". hold on...ill go get my magnifying glass

****************************************
what!?

[The111 1]

Quote

Also add that if a spin gets to the "high G- force" stage it will be near impossible to get balled up later and any attempts will just increase your rate of spin. Try to tame the spins before they get violent and limit your rocovery options.

I hear this a lot, and I'm not saying I doubt it's truth, but I have never heard a first hand account of "getting into an unrecoverable spin". The reason should be obvious... sort of the same reason I've never heard a first hand account of a bounce (sorry for the morbid analogy). My point is... what happens if the spin is truly "unrecoverable"? If it's so bad you can't bring your knees in (ball up), I'd imagine you can't bring your arms in to touch hackey or handles either.

So should I conclude that if there is such a thing as an "unrecoverable flatspin", it has never actually happened? Every story I've heard that has involved one (unrecoverable, according to the jumper) has ended with either a deployment or wing cutaway followed by deployment. In either case, it's clear the G forces weren't so intense to disallow limb movement.

Comments?

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[mccordia 74]

Anyone have any idea what kind of speeds (downward) are done during spins like this. Would a cypress be activated, or does the spin (and the amount of surface exposed) generate such drag/lift that you stay out of the activation-range?

In short, would a passed out (or freaked-out, dizzy) wingsuiter, spinning like mad be 'saved' by a cypress if he/she was working on 'trying to get stable for the rest of their life'

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[voodew1 0]

I would say that 99% of the time the cypres activation speeds would be reached but it would be possible to be in a spin with arms and legs fully extended and have enough 'float' to stay below the activation speed. I believe that if you were actively trying to stop the spin the cypres would fire.

I you had blacked out I think the speeds would be reached also.

One should be able to analzye a speed graph from either a protrack/neptune/skytronic while in a flat spin and answer this for sure.

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[The111 1]

Quote

One should be able to analzye a speed graph from either a protrack/neptune/skytronic while in a flat spin and answer this for sure.

Two problems with that: I don't think any 2 flatspins are equal, and I don't know if these devices are reliable while in a flatspin.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com