Airowpoint 0 #1 April 3, 2006 Both the Firebird and Phantom now give the option for mylar ribs. I honestly don't understand why you should want them. They should prevent flapping but aren't you flying the suit incorrectly if you experience flapping? With the S3S it helps with backflying but both suits can have/have back inlets, so that shouldn't matter that much. The mylar ribs help inflate the wing for the first few seconds at a base jump, however I don't see why you want a wing profile when there is no wind to use it. My experience(S3S) is that the ribs limit your movability and your range, they are also in the way when you pull. So, if you buy a Firebird or Phantom, don't spend the extra cash when you're not sure you want them!Tristan Will you answer "NO" to my next question? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Costyn 1 #2 April 3, 2006 QuoteBoth the Firebird and Phantom now give the option for mylar ribs. I honestly don't understand why you should want them. They should prevent flapping but aren't you flying the suit incorrectly if you experience flapping? With the S3S it helps with backflying but both suits can have/have back inlets, so that shouldn't matter that much. The mylar ribs help inflate the wing for the first few seconds at a base jump, however I don't see why you want a wing profile when there is no wind to use it. My experience(S3S) is that the ribs limit your movability and your range, they are also in the way when you pull. So, if you buy a Firebird or Phantom, don't spend the extra cash when you're not sure you want them! The only time they get in the way is when I put my rig in my gearbag and I have to actually "pack" the suit to ensure the ribs are not being bent out of shape. As for functionality, I like the fact that when you pull the wing taut you get a nice and very strong airfoil shape. It almost feels like the fabric of an oldtime airplane wing. But, I'm no expert, and I'm interested to hear from people who actually know what they're talking about. And while we're talking about design stuff that doesn't make sense, I don't get the wing deflectors... I've never seen any wing design with these types of deflectors. They puzzle me. What exactly are they for? To make the suit less prone to stalling by deflecting the airflow over the wing? Cheers, Costyn.Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 74 #3 April 3, 2006 Quote My experience(S3S) is that the ribs limit your movability and your range, they are also in the way when you pull. With one whole jump, on a weekend where jumped about every suit that was available on the market and flew pretty shoddy in all of them because it was your 1st jump on them I wouldnt expect otherwise...JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #4 April 3, 2006 In no way were the ribs in my way when I pulled. Haven't heard from anyone else that there are either. Maybe you need to learn to fly the big wings first without adding ribs ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airowpoint 0 #5 April 3, 2006 Quote With one whole jump, on a weekend where jumped about every suit that was available on the market and flew pretty shoddy in all of them because it was your 1st jump on them I wouldnt expect otherwise... For your information I was flying "shoddy" because the suit was crap And I had 3(three) jumps on the S3S!!!Tristan Will you answer "NO" to my next question? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #6 April 3, 2006 Quotethe option for mylar ribs. I honestly don't understand why you should want them. Mylar inserts work in the same way crossbracing works in canopies, it creates a more rigid and effcient airfoil shape. This in turn relates to increased and better performance from the airfoil. QuoteI don't get the wing deflectors These are quite simply known as vortex generators in the aviation industry, Google it and you will see many aircraft use them. In very simple terms, the longer you can keep the flow of air along the wing before it seperates(flow seperation), the more effcient it is in producing lift. Idealy you want this seperation to be as close to the trailing edge of the wing as possible. In order to facilitate that, the use of vortice generators literaly stirs the air up to keep the energy of the air moving along the wing and prevents it from stalling at high angles of attack.The vortices created by the deflectors interact with the rest of the air moving over the wing to speed it up and help reduce the possibility of separation. The deflectors you see on the S3S and S6 are and improvement on the older design of Skyflyer deflector based on the information gained from the wind tunnel testing Birdman did awhile back."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airowpoint 0 #7 April 3, 2006 QuoteMylar inserts work in the same way crossbracing works in canopies, it creates a more rigid and effcient airfoil shape. This in turn relates to increased and better performance from the airfoil. I do not agree. Cross-braced technology is very different. The ribs are there to keep the topskin from a certain distance to the bottom skin. a non rigid rib will do the same job as a rigid rib and generate the same airfoil shape.Tristan Will you answer "NO" to my next question? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Costyn 1 #8 April 3, 2006 QuoteThese are quite simply known as vortex generators in the aviation industry, Google it and you will see many aircraft use them. In very simple terms, the longer you can keep the flow of air along the wing before it seperates(flow seperation), the more effcient it is in producing lift. Idealy you want this seperation to be as close to the trailing edge of the wing as possible. In order to facilitate that, the use of vortice generators literaly stirs the air up to keep the energy of the air moving along the wing and prevents it from stalling at high angles of attack.The vortices created by the deflectors interact with the rest of the air moving over the wing to speed it up and help reduce the possibility of separation. The deflectors you see on the S3S and S6 are and improvement on the older design of Skyflyer deflector based on the information gained from the wind tunnel testing Birdman did awhile back. Ah, ok... so I *have* seen them on aircraft. Here's a short & sweet explanation I found: http://www.microaero.com/pages/v_howvgswrk.htmlCostyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #9 April 3, 2006 QuoteI do not agree Well many in the aviation and canopy mfgring industry would say otherwise. The key here is DEFORMATION. Simply put, a rigid airfoil is more effcient than a non rigid airfoil and thus performs better."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airowpoint 0 #10 April 3, 2006 Quotemany in the aviation and canopy mfgring industry would say otherwise Yea, but what do they know seriously, I think I understand. You mean deformations like these(see drawing) of the bottom surface.Tristan Will you answer "NO" to my next question? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gus 1 #11 April 3, 2006 There's a good post here about mylar ribs from Robi. GusOutpatientsOnline.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 74 #12 April 3, 2006 Lets just say I'm quite happy PF, Birdman, Matter or FlyYourBody dont have you working there as a designer JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airowpoint 0 #13 April 3, 2006 Stop the complements, please, you're making me blush I just ask the questions because I want to know!Tristan Will you answer "NO" to my next question? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #14 April 3, 2006 The main thing I don't like about Mylar ribs is that they tend to break after you own the wingsuit for awhile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #15 April 3, 2006 Being a nit-picking academic .... Leading edge deflectors are derived from the (fixed) slots seen on some fixed-wing airplanes. Their function is to re-attach the airflow to the top skin. Most airplanes only need (have airflow through) their slots at high angles of attack. That is why many airliners only deploy their (movable) slats for landings (high angle of attack, low airspeed). The most popular vortex generators are small blades (look at the vertical fin on a Twin Otter) or triangles (look at the leading edge of a Glastar or Soloy Turbine Cessna 207). Slats and slots perform the same functions as vortex generators, but are built differently. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
n23x 0 #16 April 4, 2006 As an interesting tidbit, check out the Fiesler Storch (sp?) for some gnarly leading edge slats. http://ajbs.com/musee/photos%20Musee/Fielser-Storch/Fiesler-Storch-001750-FC.jpg .jim"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #17 April 4, 2006 QuoteAs an interesting tidbit, check out the Fiesler Storch (sp?) for some gnarly leading edge slats. http://ajbs.com/musee/photos%20Musee/Fielser-Storch/Fiesler-Storch-001750-FC.jpg Though the leading edge has nothing to do with the mylar ribs, what you see on the plane increases the Bernoulli lift considerably. Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 74 #18 April 4, 2006 QuoteThe main thing I don't like about Mylar ribs is that they tend to break after you own the wingsuit for awhile. How long is generaly concidered 'a while' ?JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robibird 3 #19 April 4, 2006 Hi, There are a few misconceptions on mylar: 1. It does not improve pressurization 2. It does not help unless you are flying the suit efficiently, meaning you only see the benefit of mylar ribs when you flying the suit towards maximum performance. 3. It does not have the same purpose as the ribs on cross braced canopies. Mylar does not make the profile more rigid (in terms of the connection of top & bottom surfaces like the cross braced rib system does) The advantages of mylar are: 1. It helps to keep the right profile of the wing on the first few seconds on BASE exits 2. It reduces the vibration of the trailing edge of the wings, which directly affects the flight characteristics. This is the primary reason of having the mylar.Robert Pecnik robert@phoenix-fly.com www.phoenix-fly.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
n23x 0 #20 April 5, 2006 Right-o. I was responding to riggerrobs comments with regard to leading edge deflectors et al. Sorry to go a little off topic. .jim"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airowpoint 0 #21 April 5, 2006 Thank you very much for the reply Robert! However, it still doesn't fully answer my question. QuoteIt helps to keep the right profile of the wing on the first few seconds on BASE exits But you don't have any wind the first few seconds that might use the wingprofile to generate lift. right? QuoteIt reduces the vibration of the trailing edge of the wings, which directly affects the flight characteristics + QuoteIt does not help unless you are flying the suit efficiently Is there still vibration when you are flying the suit efficiently? ThanksTristan Will you answer "NO" to my next question? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
F16Driver 0 #22 April 5, 2006 How often do the ribs break? If it does break, how long does it take to get it fixed? I am waiting on a Firebird-R that I was able to get upgraded for free from the standard Firebird. I'm hoping it doesn't break after a few jumps. Anybody with any stories or comments on this? "I promise, I will never die." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #23 April 5, 2006 QuoteHow often do the ribs break? They break as often as you bend them too far. Your post, and another before yours seem to assume that the ribs have a "time limit" before they break. That's not true. Having ribs just means you have to be more careful with your suit, particularly when packing your rig, storing the suit, and even sitting on the plane in some cases. I am not a big fan of ribs and wouldn't want them in my suit because I don't want to have to worry about breaking them all the time. When I pack the suit gets squashed all up under my rig, and at the end of the day I squash it all up in my gearbag. But that's just my preference. Plastic is plastic. It will break if you deform it past a certain point, not after a certain # of jumps.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #24 April 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteIt helps to keep the right profile of the wing on the first few seconds on BASE exits But you don't have any wind the first few seconds that might use the wingprofile to generate lift. right?/reply] On a BASE flight, it is possible for small fractions of seconds to be critical. By holding the wing profile, lift generation starts sooner (since the wing doesn't have to fully inflate and take shape before it can start generating lift). The difference between starting to fly at 2 seconds and starting to fly at 5 seconds can be astronomical.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Costyn 1 #25 April 16, 2006 QuoteQuoteI don't get the wing deflectors These are quite simply known as vortex generators in the aviation industry, Google it and you will see many aircraft use them. In very simple terms, the longer you can keep the flow of air along the wing before it seperates(flow seperation), the more effcient it is in producing lift. Idealy you want this seperation to be as close to the trailing edge of the wing as possible. In order to facilitate that, the use of vortice generators literaly stirs the air up to keep the energy of the air moving along the wing and prevents it from stalling at high angles of attack.The vortices created by the deflectors interact with the rest of the air moving over the wing to speed it up and help reduce the possibility of separation. The deflectors you see on the S3S and S6 are and improvement on the older design of Skyflyer deflector based on the information gained from the wind tunnel testing Birdman did awhile back. First of all, sorry for the threadjack, but this thread seems to be somewhat resolved concerning mylar inserts. I still have a question about deflectors/vortex generators, though. As you can see in this picture (photograph by Saskia Zegswaard), the 2 innermost deflectors seem to be inflated somewhat, but the rest are just sorta scrunched up and not really doing anything except creating drag, just like they are when I'm standing on the ground. I'm wondering if my deflectors are doing me any good at all. The wingsuit is an early production model (I bought it off of Jussi of Bird-Man), and perhaps they hadn't finalized the deflectors, because these are made of very tough plastic, very different from the ones that Jarno has on his suit, for example. I was thinking perhaps the suit would be better off without the deflectors, and I could take them off. What do you guys think? Cheers, Costyn. Another cool picture from that jump here. Thanks Saskia, you rock!Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Costyn 1 #25 April 16, 2006 QuoteQuoteI don't get the wing deflectors These are quite simply known as vortex generators in the aviation industry, Google it and you will see many aircraft use them. In very simple terms, the longer you can keep the flow of air along the wing before it seperates(flow seperation), the more effcient it is in producing lift. Idealy you want this seperation to be as close to the trailing edge of the wing as possible. In order to facilitate that, the use of vortice generators literaly stirs the air up to keep the energy of the air moving along the wing and prevents it from stalling at high angles of attack.The vortices created by the deflectors interact with the rest of the air moving over the wing to speed it up and help reduce the possibility of separation. The deflectors you see on the S3S and S6 are and improvement on the older design of Skyflyer deflector based on the information gained from the wind tunnel testing Birdman did awhile back. First of all, sorry for the threadjack, but this thread seems to be somewhat resolved concerning mylar inserts. I still have a question about deflectors/vortex generators, though. As you can see in this picture (photograph by Saskia Zegswaard), the 2 innermost deflectors seem to be inflated somewhat, but the rest are just sorta scrunched up and not really doing anything except creating drag, just like they are when I'm standing on the ground. I'm wondering if my deflectors are doing me any good at all. The wingsuit is an early production model (I bought it off of Jussi of Bird-Man), and perhaps they hadn't finalized the deflectors, because these are made of very tough plastic, very different from the ones that Jarno has on his suit, for example. I was thinking perhaps the suit would be better off without the deflectors, and I could take them off. What do you guys think? Cheers, Costyn. Another cool picture from that jump here. Thanks Saskia, you rock!Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
