Tonto 1 #1 June 30, 2006 In the beginning, there was darkness. Then the earth cooled, and the Dinosaurs came, and went. Mammals evolved and Style and Accuracy competition began... Then came FS. (Then RW, and we all knew what the "W" stood for.) Then CF. (Also changed from CRW) Then Freestyle... Then Skysurfing (Which looks set to visit the Dinosaurs) People started to play a LOT in the mid 90's, it seems, and Freeflying/VRW seemed to develop out of that funny spandex pants winged sleeve sit flying stuff and developed into something really cool. (The ugly duckling legend) "Sport Accuracy" became "Canopy Piloting" and was recognised by the FAI. There are always a few "outside" types of skydiving not recognised by the FAI. Speed skydiving and Atmonauti are two, and wingsuits are another. How does one go about getting the FAI to take a disipline seriously and to recognise it? I think the most obvious way is to start to compete at a local level. Largest flock. greatest distance. longest time, and even a kinda winged freefly seem to be the most obvious means of doing this, at as many different places and events as possible. Any other suggestions? tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #2 June 30, 2006 Acrobatics or Aerobatics? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #3 June 30, 2006 That's what I meant by "Kinda winged freefly." tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie95 3 #4 June 30, 2006 I know Scott (Lou) has done some work in this area, maybe he can shed some light.BASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maretus 0 #5 June 30, 2006 Quote Largest flock. greatest distance. longest time, and even a kinda winged freefly seem to be the most obvious means of doing this, at as many different places and events as possible. The disciplines above present few problem to become "truly" defined competition disciplines. How do you define "largest flock" ? Large formations, be it FS or FF, have to be preplanned gripped formations. So far I haven't seen large formation flocking going towards building large gripped flocks but more so building tight flocks with no grips. As a ws flyer (to me at least) it makes more sense to build non gripped flock since flocking is all about flying and have you seen flocks of birds taking grips ? Also flying gripped WSformations is very difficult and to my limited experience it limits ones flying somewhat. So to get "largest flock" recognized as a competition discipline we should be able to define what is "flock", should everybody be within 1m of each other ? How is it judgeable then ? Longest time is very much dependent on body structure and making it as an official disicpline would require maybe some weight categories or weight / height ratio categories to get things even to us more big boned birds out there. Longest distance sounds good but it has too few problems. In long jump you have maximum allowed back wind where you can make records, should we make that kinds of rules too to level the parameters of the "longest distance" ever flown ?http://www.ufufreefly.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #6 June 30, 2006 I'm not saying there are no hurdles, but if two 6 year old kids can race across the yard and figure who won between them - something must be possible, right? edit to add The body type thing is bullshit. In every sport you compete with what you have. There are no super tall F1 Drivers, no short fat competitive rock climbers, no super skinny long distance swimmers etc. As for distance - it's all on what the other guy does. As long as you do it together, the same wind applies to both. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #7 June 30, 2006 There are sport with weight categories for same reason.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #8 June 30, 2006 QuoteThere are sport with weight categories for same reason.... Yes, but there are no body type categories. If you are a 70kg, 1.2m wingsuit pilot, I'm guessing you would need to compete in that weight category against other people who weigh 70kg and are 1.8+ m. Saying you're "heavy boned" will gain no favour in any sport that judges on weight. I really never meant this to become reasons why we should NOT compete, but maybe it gives the answer I was looking for. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voodew1 0 #9 June 30, 2006 Why is it necessary to be recognized by the FAI --- so that wingsuit flying can develope into what RW and FF has. Heres how that happened - once upon a time there was a bunch of cool wanna have fun guys tired of the bullshit competition of style and accuracy that went out and touched each other in freefall, they then got others who wanted to have fun to join them. Later those want to have fun guys decided how the newer people were fucking up there skydives so they no longer wanted to jump with them, even more so those guys decided that they wanted to build the biggest formations. On those attempts everyone had to be super serious and not joke around because there was a bunch of old guys on the plane that needed to concentrate on that 1 point skydive. Over time a bunch of just wanna have fun guys decided what a drag it was to be so serious and they started to do this thing called freefly......................................and on and on. Soon wingsuiting will follow suit and we will start cutting people .......or better yet we can find a few guys and put them on a pedistal so they can charge fuck loads of money to come to your boogie so that everyone else can learn how good they really are and also learn why everyone at the boogie is paying an extra few bucks a jump or high boogie fee. Why not just leave it as something fun to do and don't try to fuck it up by making it a competition. It will start the chain the first time you decide that the newer flyer can't be on your dive because they don't have enough experience. From there manufactures won't fly from overseas to Florida to jump with a flock of experienced and very inexperienced flyers just because it will be a fun time. Remember when you started skydiving ----- it was a fun thing to do ---- some of us turned that fun thing into a job and others decided to just leave it as a hobby. Remember why you started to skydive and go back there ..... its where the fun starts --- its not about whos the best or what teams the best Oh and just for the record..........I am the best no need for a competition The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #10 June 30, 2006 QuoteWhy is it necessary to be recognized by the FAI --- so that wingsuit flying can develope into what RW and FF has. Who/what is the FAI? Are those the guys that fail to recognize Craig Breedlove as the first man to break the sound barrier in a rocket car? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie95 3 #11 June 30, 2006 Quote Are those the guys that fail to recognize Craig Breedlove as the first man to break the sound barrier in a rocket car? Nah that was some crooked Brits who wanted the record for themselves!BASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #12 June 30, 2006 Nothing crooked about the dashing young ex military fighter jock with the big black car that looks like the batmobile on steriods. You got to vote for him just on his debonaireness alone. Except for the fact that the quiet laidback southern California guy took it before the brits could try a second time and eventually break it in their second attempt. But the real issue is the stuffy record organization that rejects the facts.Yeah their name started with F something. This couldn't be the same organization we want anywhere around wingsuits could it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #13 June 30, 2006 Don't mix international organizations with federal... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #14 June 30, 2006 FIA, FAI, Its hard to tell who is who nowadays. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mccordia 74 #15 June 30, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhy is it necessary to be recognized by the FAI --- so that wingsuit flying can develope into what RW and FF has. Who/what is the FAI? Are those the guys that fail to recognize Craig Breedlove as the first man to break the sound barrier in a rocket car? Who says Stan Barrett wasnt the first man to break the sound barrier in a rocket car in 1979??JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouDiamond 1 #16 June 30, 2006 QuoteHow does one go about getting the FAI to take a disipline seriously and to recognise it? If only we could sit and discuss this over a beer as there is no easy place to start or to explain it really and I don't feel like typing all that info out. But you're on the right track, here is the mega abridged version. First you need to have competitions, then have it recognized by the USPA then apply for recognition by the FAI. Now it is no where as easy as that that sentence above sounds. In order to present something like this where it's realatively new and relatively few people doing it, you need to hand them a turn key operation. For starters, you need to define the competitions or events, then you need rules, dive pools(if applicable), judging criteria, judge certification....yawn, are you still reading? It's taken me roughly 4 years to collect and write down a lot of the required paperwork. I have also had to keep a few things in mind as modern wingsuiting is still in its infancy. The way the rules and judging are written need to be as timeless as possible, meaning as the sport progresses and people become better, the way the rules are written shouldn't hamper the competitior or competition. Its not an easy task when the batteries in your crystal ball aren't working. Several of the events I have planned are more condusive to competition because they are comprised of teams and not just individuals. However the skill set required to compete in these events is not there yet within wingsuiting. Why hold an event that no one is capable of doing? The thing to remember is "yet". But beyond all the mumbo jumbo and rule writing, event defining there exists the grim realities of competition. How many competative events do we have now? Well in order for there to be support for some of these new disciplines, some have to fall by the wayside, like skysurfing, which is supposed to be phased out here shortly. Then there is the inevitable political side of the coin as well. Need I say more? Then you have to look at the events that will be presented and its long term viability. Individual events, like Freestyle or artistic events where you have 1 person and a camera man is very expensive compared to the other competitions like 4 way or 8 way when it comes time to pay competition fees, then figure in travel ,etc. Team events typically have more people involved in them and thus more support from the masses as more people are doing it be it competative or not. So, in the mean time I am saving several trees by not printing out the reams of information, rules, judging criteria, dive pools, etc until there exists a talent pool deep enough to support serious competition and a need for it. Frankly, even if wingsuiting had a huge talent pool, now is not the right time to pitch it as VRW is the buzz word in the circle that controls things. When the time comes, I'll load a ream of paper in the printer,hit print and go watch a movie while it prints out. You can't cross a bridge until you get to it and frankly, wingsuiting is no where near that bridge yet. Timing is everything. The other thing I always keep in the back of my mind is that as much as I would like to see wingsuiting recognized as a discipline, I don't want it to become like RW or FF where a bunch of people sit in an airplane with their eyes closed washing imaginary windows. Wingsuiting is about having a good time with others and getting your flock on."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #17 June 30, 2006 QuoteWingsuiting is about having a good time with others and getting your flock on. That's the most important line, I think. I guess my path is clear then. Keep learning, keep teaching, keep enjoying. Thanks for the insight. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites darklow 0 #18 June 30, 2006 voodew1 i couldn't agree more with your post. I had long thoughts about choosing between RW and FF. I had much fun in RW, but for now i have no longer fun from these jumps, although i am not so experienced, but since i was going in RW formations with experienced jumpers and instructors, i never ruined it - i was quite good in it. But now these jumps are not fun for me anymore, everyone are too much serious about that competition thing. In Latvia in our dropzone we can jump only on weekends, and i want to enjoy these weekends as much as i can. I am already sacrifising almost all summer weekends with my friends, for going to dropzone - to HAVE FUN and joy, not stress and competition. Now i have found my passion - wingsuits, when every one are preparing for jumps, working on formations, i see no smile, no joy on their faces. By that time with big smile on my face i am looking in the sky searching for clouds ;) I am not saying RW and FF are not fun, it is a lot. But mostly when it comes to competition thing, it changes a lot, it becomes as u said as job. P.S. Blue Skies! As i said i am not so experienced as everyone else here, so don't take my thought close to heart. It's just weekend again has almost come and i couldn't hold these thought to myself! ;)The Earth is Art, The Photographer is only a Witness http://adventure.lv/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #19 June 30, 2006 You sound wise beyond your jump numbers. QuoteI am not saying RW and FF are not fun, it is a lot. But mostly when it comes to competition thing, it changes a lot, it becomes as u said as job. Surely competition is a choice? There are competitive teams, but there are fun jumpers too, no? If someone builds a road, and it becomes clogged with traffic, it is still our choice to relax in an open feild far away, is it not? Why do you think the thought of both seems so scary to so many people? Do they think they will be forced to compete? Or that if some compete, they will be seen as poor fliers if they don't? Pidgeons race and flock, but when we think of a bird we'd like to be, I don't think many of us want to be pidgeons. (I'm a Red Bishop, just like my Avitar.) tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,500 #20 June 30, 2006 QuoteSurely competition is a choice? There are competitive teams, but there are fun jumpers too, no? Absolutely. I like competition and I love those 'serious' jumps that have been planned-out, analyzed, dirt dived and rehearsed - then in the air everything just clicks and it seems like you've got forever to keep turning points. The buzz and sense of achievement from that is way cool. But then fun jumps (especially in wingsuits) have something so different to offer. The joy of being free in the air takes over and a good flight or cloud flyby keeps me smiling and laughing for days afterwards. I love both those feelings - and choosing to be 'serious' on one jump will never stop me from having fun on the nextDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #21 June 30, 2006 Quotechoosing to be 'serious' on one jump will never stop me from having fun on the next Agreed. I've been in "serious" teams for both FS and CF. I've been on "serious" bigger skydives, and I've had some "serious" things happen during AFF and Tandem, but that hasn't stopped me from enjoying the fun side of the sport. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites darklow 0 #22 June 30, 2006 Anyways this theme is nice topic by the beer :) Competitions are good things, it's a challenge, you have goals and you need to have goals to aim for. I guess it is in every sports, for example i like ice-skating too, it is fun, but if i start serious training in figure-skating :) i don't think i would have more fun that now. I think all you need is to get right balance between fun, relaxing and your mission, target, getting closer to your goals. And i think some are forgetting the first one, that's it. About RW - since i am not jumping RW anymore and just flying, they kinda reject me a little as i betrayed them, for not doing it anymore. So if you talk about forcing, there is a little force from instructors and other members. Some of them have more than 6000 jumps, but all they do is RW, they have never tried wingsuits or even freefly. For AFF stundents they give no other choise than RW. But it's not so bad here last years - we have some good freefliers and now some beginner wingsuit flyers, so things are getting better. I believe new generation will win and change this thing! The Earth is Art, The Photographer is only a Witness http://adventure.lv/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #23 June 30, 2006 Quotesince i am not jumping RW anymore and just flying, they kinda reject me a little Lucky you! Same thing happened to Jonathan Seagull! You have a great future ahead of you. I've attached the book if you're interested. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Costyn 1 #24 June 30, 2006 Quote Lucky you! Same thing happened to Jonathan Seagull! You have a great future ahead of you. I've attached the book if you're interested. t It's a great story definitely. Is the book no longer copyrighted? Not that I really care if you post it here, but to enjoy it to the fullest, go out and buy the paperback. The other books by Richard Bach are really great too; many of them are flying related and I think wingsuiters will enjoy them.Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Costyn 1 #25 June 30, 2006 [replyHowever the skill set required to compete in these events is not there yet within wingsuiting. Why hold an event that no one is capable of doing? The thing to remember is "yet". Scott, great post. Very informative and insightful. I agree with you and I think we should wait until it pans out a bit. Like in freefly, it was quite a number of years before serious competative events were being held, right? Maybe we should let the same thing happen for wingsuiting; let it mature for a while. At any rate, I am curious to hear what sort of competition events you have thought out, for which there aren't enough skilled people yet for them to take place? Perhaps you don't want to elaborate just yet, but well, no harm in asking, right? Cheers, Costyn.Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 74 #15 June 30, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhy is it necessary to be recognized by the FAI --- so that wingsuit flying can develope into what RW and FF has. Who/what is the FAI? Are those the guys that fail to recognize Craig Breedlove as the first man to break the sound barrier in a rocket car? Who says Stan Barrett wasnt the first man to break the sound barrier in a rocket car in 1979??JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #16 June 30, 2006 QuoteHow does one go about getting the FAI to take a disipline seriously and to recognise it? If only we could sit and discuss this over a beer as there is no easy place to start or to explain it really and I don't feel like typing all that info out. But you're on the right track, here is the mega abridged version. First you need to have competitions, then have it recognized by the USPA then apply for recognition by the FAI. Now it is no where as easy as that that sentence above sounds. In order to present something like this where it's realatively new and relatively few people doing it, you need to hand them a turn key operation. For starters, you need to define the competitions or events, then you need rules, dive pools(if applicable), judging criteria, judge certification....yawn, are you still reading? It's taken me roughly 4 years to collect and write down a lot of the required paperwork. I have also had to keep a few things in mind as modern wingsuiting is still in its infancy. The way the rules and judging are written need to be as timeless as possible, meaning as the sport progresses and people become better, the way the rules are written shouldn't hamper the competitior or competition. Its not an easy task when the batteries in your crystal ball aren't working. Several of the events I have planned are more condusive to competition because they are comprised of teams and not just individuals. However the skill set required to compete in these events is not there yet within wingsuiting. Why hold an event that no one is capable of doing? The thing to remember is "yet". But beyond all the mumbo jumbo and rule writing, event defining there exists the grim realities of competition. How many competative events do we have now? Well in order for there to be support for some of these new disciplines, some have to fall by the wayside, like skysurfing, which is supposed to be phased out here shortly. Then there is the inevitable political side of the coin as well. Need I say more? Then you have to look at the events that will be presented and its long term viability. Individual events, like Freestyle or artistic events where you have 1 person and a camera man is very expensive compared to the other competitions like 4 way or 8 way when it comes time to pay competition fees, then figure in travel ,etc. Team events typically have more people involved in them and thus more support from the masses as more people are doing it be it competative or not. So, in the mean time I am saving several trees by not printing out the reams of information, rules, judging criteria, dive pools, etc until there exists a talent pool deep enough to support serious competition and a need for it. Frankly, even if wingsuiting had a huge talent pool, now is not the right time to pitch it as VRW is the buzz word in the circle that controls things. When the time comes, I'll load a ream of paper in the printer,hit print and go watch a movie while it prints out. You can't cross a bridge until you get to it and frankly, wingsuiting is no where near that bridge yet. Timing is everything. The other thing I always keep in the back of my mind is that as much as I would like to see wingsuiting recognized as a discipline, I don't want it to become like RW or FF where a bunch of people sit in an airplane with their eyes closed washing imaginary windows. Wingsuiting is about having a good time with others and getting your flock on."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #17 June 30, 2006 QuoteWingsuiting is about having a good time with others and getting your flock on. That's the most important line, I think. I guess my path is clear then. Keep learning, keep teaching, keep enjoying. Thanks for the insight. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darklow 0 #18 June 30, 2006 voodew1 i couldn't agree more with your post. I had long thoughts about choosing between RW and FF. I had much fun in RW, but for now i have no longer fun from these jumps, although i am not so experienced, but since i was going in RW formations with experienced jumpers and instructors, i never ruined it - i was quite good in it. But now these jumps are not fun for me anymore, everyone are too much serious about that competition thing. In Latvia in our dropzone we can jump only on weekends, and i want to enjoy these weekends as much as i can. I am already sacrifising almost all summer weekends with my friends, for going to dropzone - to HAVE FUN and joy, not stress and competition. Now i have found my passion - wingsuits, when every one are preparing for jumps, working on formations, i see no smile, no joy on their faces. By that time with big smile on my face i am looking in the sky searching for clouds ;) I am not saying RW and FF are not fun, it is a lot. But mostly when it comes to competition thing, it changes a lot, it becomes as u said as job. P.S. Blue Skies! As i said i am not so experienced as everyone else here, so don't take my thought close to heart. It's just weekend again has almost come and i couldn't hold these thought to myself! ;)The Earth is Art, The Photographer is only a Witness http://adventure.lv/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #19 June 30, 2006 You sound wise beyond your jump numbers. QuoteI am not saying RW and FF are not fun, it is a lot. But mostly when it comes to competition thing, it changes a lot, it becomes as u said as job. Surely competition is a choice? There are competitive teams, but there are fun jumpers too, no? If someone builds a road, and it becomes clogged with traffic, it is still our choice to relax in an open feild far away, is it not? Why do you think the thought of both seems so scary to so many people? Do they think they will be forced to compete? Or that if some compete, they will be seen as poor fliers if they don't? Pidgeons race and flock, but when we think of a bird we'd like to be, I don't think many of us want to be pidgeons. (I'm a Red Bishop, just like my Avitar.) tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,500 #20 June 30, 2006 QuoteSurely competition is a choice? There are competitive teams, but there are fun jumpers too, no? Absolutely. I like competition and I love those 'serious' jumps that have been planned-out, analyzed, dirt dived and rehearsed - then in the air everything just clicks and it seems like you've got forever to keep turning points. The buzz and sense of achievement from that is way cool. But then fun jumps (especially in wingsuits) have something so different to offer. The joy of being free in the air takes over and a good flight or cloud flyby keeps me smiling and laughing for days afterwards. I love both those feelings - and choosing to be 'serious' on one jump will never stop me from having fun on the nextDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #21 June 30, 2006 Quotechoosing to be 'serious' on one jump will never stop me from having fun on the next Agreed. I've been in "serious" teams for both FS and CF. I've been on "serious" bigger skydives, and I've had some "serious" things happen during AFF and Tandem, but that hasn't stopped me from enjoying the fun side of the sport. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darklow 0 #22 June 30, 2006 Anyways this theme is nice topic by the beer :) Competitions are good things, it's a challenge, you have goals and you need to have goals to aim for. I guess it is in every sports, for example i like ice-skating too, it is fun, but if i start serious training in figure-skating :) i don't think i would have more fun that now. I think all you need is to get right balance between fun, relaxing and your mission, target, getting closer to your goals. And i think some are forgetting the first one, that's it. About RW - since i am not jumping RW anymore and just flying, they kinda reject me a little as i betrayed them, for not doing it anymore. So if you talk about forcing, there is a little force from instructors and other members. Some of them have more than 6000 jumps, but all they do is RW, they have never tried wingsuits or even freefly. For AFF stundents they give no other choise than RW. But it's not so bad here last years - we have some good freefliers and now some beginner wingsuit flyers, so things are getting better. I believe new generation will win and change this thing! The Earth is Art, The Photographer is only a Witness http://adventure.lv/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #23 June 30, 2006 Quotesince i am not jumping RW anymore and just flying, they kinda reject me a little Lucky you! Same thing happened to Jonathan Seagull! You have a great future ahead of you. I've attached the book if you're interested. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Costyn 1 #24 June 30, 2006 Quote Lucky you! Same thing happened to Jonathan Seagull! You have a great future ahead of you. I've attached the book if you're interested. t It's a great story definitely. Is the book no longer copyrighted? Not that I really care if you post it here, but to enjoy it to the fullest, go out and buy the paperback. The other books by Richard Bach are really great too; many of them are flying related and I think wingsuiters will enjoy them.Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Costyn 1 #25 June 30, 2006 [replyHowever the skill set required to compete in these events is not there yet within wingsuiting. Why hold an event that no one is capable of doing? The thing to remember is "yet". Scott, great post. Very informative and insightful. I agree with you and I think we should wait until it pans out a bit. Like in freefly, it was quite a number of years before serious competative events were being held, right? Maybe we should let the same thing happen for wingsuiting; let it mature for a while. At any rate, I am curious to hear what sort of competition events you have thought out, for which there aren't enough skilled people yet for them to take place? Perhaps you don't want to elaborate just yet, but well, no harm in asking, right? Cheers, Costyn.Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
