BlindBrick 0 #1 June 17, 2007 Here's a track of a mal sometimes seen in Prodigys that I've been told only happens when the suit is improperly rigged or during extreme/rough handling in flight. I had a nice unhurried suit up, I checked the rigging and then had another jumper verify the rigging was correct. This was a fairly low key, non-strenous solo jump, and the mal occurred in normal straight flight. In the attached pic, white line's jump run, red line is freefall and the maroon line is canopy flight. Anyone care to guess what the mal was? -Blind"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ScottGray 0 #2 June 17, 2007 HHMMM ---- the left wing attachment came detached causing a 32% yaw and impacting the roll coeffiecent, but only during a transitional manuver to the right??? Okay --- perhaps not. If the wing did become detached, was it feedback under the elastic keeper before being snapped into place? WSI-5 / PFI-51 / EGI-112 / S-Fly The Brothers Gray Wing Suit Academy Contact us for first flight and basic flocking courses at your DZ or boogie. www.thebrothersgray.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mbondvegas 0 #3 June 17, 2007 I'm not sure the picture helped me figure it out, but I'm guessing you had a blown wing. I've had it happen 3 times in 22 flights. Once right after exit (probably due to an overly aggressive opening of the arm wings), once on a rodeo (understandably caused by the riders legs pushing on the bottom of the wing), and once when just cruising along in straight flight(unexplained). I always check the rigging closely (at least 3 times). A blown wing is not that big of a deal on a skydive...it definitely hurts the performance and will induce a turn if not compensated for. I think PF should consider using the small stainless RSL shackles instead of the loop and snap design. I've thought of having my rigger mod mine, but it really hasn't been a high priority. Nonetheless, I still love the Prodigy and could not imagine a better first suit.- - - I am not afraid of tomorrow, for I have seen yesterday and I love today. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlindBrick 0 #4 June 17, 2007 Quote If the wing did become detached, was it feedback under the elastic keeper before being snapped into place? It was but still came loose. I've got enough space on the end of the strap that I'm thinking about adding a third snap. The point on the plot where it came undone is the hard turn shortly after leaving the plane. The "S" curve pattern after it is me trying to keep it under control until I could get low enough to deploy safely (was at a boogie). I didn't just pop the other wing and enter regular freefall because I have made promises to people to stop deploying at speeds in excess of 150. If I'd let my self go terminal without my arm wings, I'd have been in the neighborhood of 175-180 at pull time. -Blind"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mbondvegas 0 #5 June 17, 2007 Quote It was but still came loose. I've got enough space on the end of the strap that I'm thinking about adding a third snap. Think about the RSL shackle concept. (The small stainless type..not the big o' bronze one's) It would be a much more secure alternative compared to just adding another snap.- - - I am not afraid of tomorrow, for I have seen yesterday and I love today. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ScottGray 0 #6 June 17, 2007 QuoteQuote If the wing did become detached, was it feedback under the elastic keeper before being snapped into place? It was but still came loose. I've got enough space on the end of the strap that I'm thinking about adding a third snap. The point on the plot where it came undone is the hard turn shortly after leaving the plane. The "S" curve pattern after it is me trying to keep it under control until I could get low enough to deploy safely (was at a boogie). I didn't just pop the other wing and enter regular freefall because I have made promises to people to stop deploying at speeds in excess of 150. If I'd let my self go terminal without my arm wings, I'd have been in the neighborhood of 175-180 at pull time. I hope that's KPH and not MPH. -BlindWSI-5 / PFI-51 / EGI-112 / S-Fly The Brothers Gray Wing Suit Academy Contact us for first flight and basic flocking courses at your DZ or boogie. www.thebrothersgray.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlindBrick 0 #7 June 17, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuote I hope that's KPH and not MPH. No, it's mph. 150 and below is not as bad as most jumpers think because my gears been modded for it (typically I'm deploying at ~145 at the end of a WS jump), but it starts getting uncomfortable past 160, Anything past 180's is well beyond BASE opening painful. -Blind"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chrisgray 0 #8 June 18, 2007 OMG...are you falling like a cannon ball at the end of your wingsuit flight??? Granted I am 5'8" & 140lbs but I don't get over 75 mph during deployment and generally my max speed is less than 70. -Chris-WSI-6 / PFI-55 The Brothers Gray Wingsuit Academy http://www.myspace.com/cgwingsuitpilot http://www.myspace.com/thebrothersgray Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BlindBrick 0 #9 June 18, 2007 QuoteOMG...are you falling like a cannon ball at the end of your wingsuit flight??? Pretty much. I'm 5'11 and 320 lbs. I'm big enough that I get a pretty hefty horizontal speed, and my canopy doesn't do well at all when opening with significant horizontal speed. Experience has taught me that I have to shutdown my wings and be in regular freefall for 4-5 seconds before I pitch. 1 g is 21.9 mph/s, call it 20 mph/s to account for drag. That's 80 mph of accel in 4 seconds so with a deployment speed of 145, that suggests a descent rate of around 70 mph in full flight. -Blind"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,500 #10 June 18, 2007 Would your skydiving not be easier, simpler and safer if you just lost weight?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #11 June 18, 2007 I think PF should consider using the small stainless RSL shackles instead of the loop and snap design. I've thought of having my rigger mod mine, but it really hasn't been a high priority. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Funny! Bill Booth said that Swedish Snap Shackles (brass or stainless steel) are the weakest part of Skyhook RSL. Bill is searching for a more reliable RSL shackle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites unclecharlie95 3 #12 June 18, 2007 We will consider the points made in this thread in our future product development. JBASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites The111 1 #13 June 18, 2007 QuoteFunny! Bill Booth said that Swedish Snap Shackles (brass or stainless steel) are the weakest part of Skyhook RSL. Bill is searching for a more reliable RSL shackle. I was gonna say the same thing. On my one cutaway where I had an RSL, the shackle actually came undone somehow during the mal, and the RSL landed with me and my container (still on the velcro), rather than with the main canopy as it should have. No offense to the original poster, but I find it hard to believe the Prodigy snap/strap could come undone when routed properly.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites yuri_base 1 #14 June 18, 2007 Quote I find it hard to believe the Prodigy snap/strap could come undone when routed properly. Aerodynamic forces scale proportionally to weight. To tension the wings, a 320lbs jumper would apply twice the force compared to a 160lbs one. It's not the snaps, it's the pilot! Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps: L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP iOS only: L/D Magic Windows only: WS Studio Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites The111 1 #15 June 18, 2007 You might be right. Still, that setup is so snug that it seems to ensure all forces transmitted to the snap are completely perpendicular to its "unsnap" direction. Would be interesting to do a static loading test with a similar setup and see if it is possible to make it come undone.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mccordia 74 #16 June 18, 2007 At high speeds (just like backflying when the fabric on the armwing is not completely taught) there may be some flapping going on, which could ride/drag anything from cables to zippers and snaps apart if its extreme enough...JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mbondvegas 0 #17 June 19, 2007 I read both your thread and Bill's comments related to the RSL shackle. It might not be the perfect answer, but would be better than the snaps. It might be hard to see how the snaps would come undone, but they do. Again, not really frequently under normal conditions, but more than I would prefer. The routing is simple, and I triple check it every time. I do not blame my blown wing on the rodeo, on the design...that was an extreme situation. The other two where caused by rather normal flight modes. One was the result of an aggressive arm opening after exit, but the other was normal flight. The good thing is, that the Prodigy is still EASY to control with a blown wing. So, it is not a real safety issue, just a nuisance. I'm still a big PF fan! The Prodigy is a great first suit and has proven to be easily flockable with more difficult to use intermediate suits (i.e. Classics ,GTI's, Raptors, etc). My new Phacro should arrive soon! I'm psyched!- - - I am not afraid of tomorrow, for I have seen yesterday and I love today. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Professor 0 #18 June 20, 2007 Quote I was gonna say the same thing. On my one cutaway where I had an RSL, the shackle actually came undone somehow during the mal, and the RSL landed with me and my container (still on the velcro), rather than with the main canopy as it should have. I have a camera suit with small stainless RSL shackles attaching the wings, and one of them comes undone at the end of almost every jump, as soon as I go to my back to film the deployment. Sometimes it hits me in the face, too. And I hate that. QuoteNo offense to the original poster, but I find it hard to believe the Prodigy snap/strap could come undone when routed properly. I've had it happen to me, too. My theory is, high enough speed and weight can cause the male part of the snap to rotate backward and release. Ted Like a giddy school girl. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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chrisgray 0 #8 June 18, 2007 OMG...are you falling like a cannon ball at the end of your wingsuit flight??? Granted I am 5'8" & 140lbs but I don't get over 75 mph during deployment and generally my max speed is less than 70. -Chris-WSI-6 / PFI-55 The Brothers Gray Wingsuit Academy http://www.myspace.com/cgwingsuitpilot http://www.myspace.com/thebrothersgray Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlindBrick 0 #9 June 18, 2007 QuoteOMG...are you falling like a cannon ball at the end of your wingsuit flight??? Pretty much. I'm 5'11 and 320 lbs. I'm big enough that I get a pretty hefty horizontal speed, and my canopy doesn't do well at all when opening with significant horizontal speed. Experience has taught me that I have to shutdown my wings and be in regular freefall for 4-5 seconds before I pitch. 1 g is 21.9 mph/s, call it 20 mph/s to account for drag. That's 80 mph of accel in 4 seconds so with a deployment speed of 145, that suggests a descent rate of around 70 mph in full flight. -Blind"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,500 #10 June 18, 2007 Would your skydiving not be easier, simpler and safer if you just lost weight?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #11 June 18, 2007 I think PF should consider using the small stainless RSL shackles instead of the loop and snap design. I've thought of having my rigger mod mine, but it really hasn't been a high priority. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Funny! Bill Booth said that Swedish Snap Shackles (brass or stainless steel) are the weakest part of Skyhook RSL. Bill is searching for a more reliable RSL shackle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie95 3 #12 June 18, 2007 We will consider the points made in this thread in our future product development. JBASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #13 June 18, 2007 QuoteFunny! Bill Booth said that Swedish Snap Shackles (brass or stainless steel) are the weakest part of Skyhook RSL. Bill is searching for a more reliable RSL shackle. I was gonna say the same thing. On my one cutaway where I had an RSL, the shackle actually came undone somehow during the mal, and the RSL landed with me and my container (still on the velcro), rather than with the main canopy as it should have. No offense to the original poster, but I find it hard to believe the Prodigy snap/strap could come undone when routed properly.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yuri_base 1 #14 June 18, 2007 Quote I find it hard to believe the Prodigy snap/strap could come undone when routed properly. Aerodynamic forces scale proportionally to weight. To tension the wings, a 320lbs jumper would apply twice the force compared to a 160lbs one. It's not the snaps, it's the pilot! Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps: L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP iOS only: L/D Magic Windows only: WS Studio Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #15 June 18, 2007 You might be right. Still, that setup is so snug that it seems to ensure all forces transmitted to the snap are completely perpendicular to its "unsnap" direction. Would be interesting to do a static loading test with a similar setup and see if it is possible to make it come undone.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 74 #16 June 18, 2007 At high speeds (just like backflying when the fabric on the armwing is not completely taught) there may be some flapping going on, which could ride/drag anything from cables to zippers and snaps apart if its extreme enough...JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mbondvegas 0 #17 June 19, 2007 I read both your thread and Bill's comments related to the RSL shackle. It might not be the perfect answer, but would be better than the snaps. It might be hard to see how the snaps would come undone, but they do. Again, not really frequently under normal conditions, but more than I would prefer. The routing is simple, and I triple check it every time. I do not blame my blown wing on the rodeo, on the design...that was an extreme situation. The other two where caused by rather normal flight modes. One was the result of an aggressive arm opening after exit, but the other was normal flight. The good thing is, that the Prodigy is still EASY to control with a blown wing. So, it is not a real safety issue, just a nuisance. I'm still a big PF fan! The Prodigy is a great first suit and has proven to be easily flockable with more difficult to use intermediate suits (i.e. Classics ,GTI's, Raptors, etc). My new Phacro should arrive soon! I'm psyched!- - - I am not afraid of tomorrow, for I have seen yesterday and I love today. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Professor 0 #18 June 20, 2007 Quote I was gonna say the same thing. On my one cutaway where I had an RSL, the shackle actually came undone somehow during the mal, and the RSL landed with me and my container (still on the velcro), rather than with the main canopy as it should have. I have a camera suit with small stainless RSL shackles attaching the wings, and one of them comes undone at the end of almost every jump, as soon as I go to my back to film the deployment. Sometimes it hits me in the face, too. And I hate that. QuoteNo offense to the original poster, but I find it hard to believe the Prodigy snap/strap could come undone when routed properly. I've had it happen to me, too. My theory is, high enough speed and weight can cause the male part of the snap to rotate backward and release. Ted Like a giddy school girl. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
