mccordia 74 #1 August 2, 2007 QuoteDATE: July 28, 2007 TO: Wing Suit Manufacturers and Wing Suit Instructors FROM: CAROLINA SKY SPORTS SUBJECT: SAFETY CONCERNS REGARDING WING SUIT JUMPERS Two recent incidents at our DZ have prompted this correspondence. A very experienced wing suit jumper did not communicate with the pilot that he was on board and exited as the aircraft started its descent. The result was the wing suit jumper striking the horizontal stabilizer of the King Air causing injury to the jumper and damage to the aircraft. The jumper suffered a fracture of the femur and strained chest and arm muscles. He was able to deploy his main parachute in a normal manner and landed in the pit. The aircraft sustained a minor dent in the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer. This incident has raised three concerns, education, communication and cooperation regarding wing suit jumpers. They must be educated to communicate and cooperate with the pilot. We are suggesting that more emphasis be placed on these concerns in the sale and instruction of wing suits. This incident fortunately had a relative good outcome, the jumper will heal, the aircraft could be repaired and the pilot was able to regain control of the aircraft. The alternative scenario would have been that the wing suit jumper was killed by striking the horizontal stabilizer, the pilot lost control of the aircraft and the aircraft spiraled into the ground killing the pilot and possibly innocent bystanders on the ground. Another communication issue is that wing suit jumpers can cover a lot of ground in their flight. Should their line of flight be in the opposite direction of established flight for the day and they land four to five miles away from the DZ, it is virtually impossible to find them. Heaven forbid that they are injured on landing. Carolina Sky Sports now has a policy that every wing suit jumper must carry a cell phone. These are serious situations. We must urge you as manufacturers and instructors to cooperate by educating your wing suit jumpers to these potential hazards of their type of jumps. JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fab777 0 #2 August 2, 2007 This used to be a joke: "do you have your cellphone with you?" Fabien BASE#944 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #3 August 2, 2007 QuoteA very experienced wing suit jumper did not communicate with the pilot that he was on board There are many valid points in the original post, but a jumper by the door, waiting to exit, cannot physically communicate with the pilot. The pilot should visually check that all jumpers are gone before beginning his descent, and/or turn off the green light. However, the solo wingsuit jumper, whether noticed by the pilot or not, should have known the plane was diving and either exited accordingly (if it was within his skillset) or even better, not exited at all. As a sidenote, I have my cellphone in my pocket 99% of the time on wingsuit flights. I've only landed off once or twice, but no matter where I land it is nice to have a phone immediately available, especially if somebody ELSE landed off and you need to call him ASAP.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 74 #4 August 2, 2007 Outlandings happen, but they shouldnt happen any more often then on 'normal' jumps (without a wingsuit) If playing with other people in the sky prevents someone from finding his/her way back to the dropzone, some more solos, training on learning to fly a patern is definately needed. But then again..being able to safely fly a 2 way, tight, from exit to breakoff, and slowly working your way up to bigger formations, is also whats needed skillwise before you go on a 20/40/60 way, and thats also still not really catching on... JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #5 August 2, 2007 Quote is also whats needed skillwise before you go on a 20/40/60 way, and thats also still not really catching on... What's a 20/40/60 way? How about a 404 dive? Dropzone was not found? Geek humor?www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 803 #6 August 2, 2007 sounds more like a 403 in this case. 402 for boogies.... 401 for advanced suits 500 when the wingsuit pilot screws the pooch... 301 when he corrects himself.. 200 on a good dive and I shouldda 204'd... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
verticalflyer 11 #7 August 2, 2007 Basic stuff, pilots need to know period if your wingsuiting, no excuse about comms people can let the pilot now on climb to altitude. I am quite fond of knowing whether the pilot if going left right , taking the aircraft down steep or in a slow circuit and in which direction. Ideally when you start wingsuiting at DZ you let pilot (s) know your flyign and then you can clarify patterns with pilots dependant on conditions for the day. How many wingsuit pilots check the winds direction strength at the start of the day to adjust their pattern? I have no interest in unexpectedly formating with the aircraft, know your airspace and comunicate your plan, Shit still happens but this helps eliminate a lot of the dumb stuff that shouldnt happen that we read on many incident reports. Cheers FraserDont just talk about it, Do it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #8 August 2, 2007 I've had a pilot start a steep decent right when I was getting ready to exit because he didn't realize I was on the flight. Basically he saw/felt the last tandem leave and thought that was the end of his run, since tandems are normally last out. It was a wild ride until he realized I was there Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #9 August 2, 2007 Also on a King Air I've noticed that for some reason a lot of flyers want to climb out and float off of the airplane. Guess what, if you are a solo and when you've climbed outside the plane the pilot can no longer tell if you are in the plane by looking in a mirror. Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ScottGray 0 #10 August 2, 2007 Thanks for the post. We will enahance the focus on these topics during our FFC training.WSI-5 / PFI-51 / EGI-112 / S-Fly The Brothers Gray Wing Suit Academy Contact us for first flight and basic flocking courses at your DZ or boogie. www.thebrothersgray.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #11 August 2, 2007 QuoteFCC training. First Chicken Course?www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 74 #12 August 2, 2007 First Clog Course...available now JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dploi 0 #13 August 2, 2007 Over the past year, I've noticed complacency in the pilot/WS jumper communication department. Just a few weeks ago, I was on a 5-way with some visiting jumpers, none of whom told the pilot they were on board. When I did, the response I received was, "I'm sure he knows. Wingsuits are pretty common these days". They also didn't tell manifest. This was a relatively new jump pilot who'd only made one skydive and did not know about wingsuits. He almost gave us a go around when we got farther out. This was the first time he'd flown wingsuit jumpers. - Tell manifest there will be wingsuits on your load. - Make sure your pilot is briefed on flying wingsuit jumpers. - Find out which way your pilot is descending and go the opposite direction. - Don't fly right out the door -- clear the aircraft before you spread your wings. Complacency kills in this sport. For those who are newer to this discipline, and as a reminder to others -- people have hit horizontal stabilizers before in wingsuits, with far worse results than this incident. It's been awhile since this last happened and wingsuits have been safe for years because we have a protocol in place for easily preventing such a collision. If you don't follow this protocol, you are inviting disaster. With wingsuits being bigger and better and getting far more lift than in pervious years, we are *more* at risk to hit the stabilizer than ever. If anything, we should be more cautious and communicative about what we're doing, not less. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #14 August 2, 2007 I choose not to jump WS from King Airs, for the reason that the tail always looks like a hazard and the door is awkward.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ScottGray 0 #15 August 3, 2007 ANNOUNCING --- Matt's new typing course !!!! Regardless of your split attention and focus, Matt's world class system can help you. Do you often mis-spell words or type the wrong letter in haste? Matt's structured approach is right for you. It's even rumored to prevent tail strikes. WSI-5 / PFI-51 / EGI-112 / S-Fly The Brothers Gray Wing Suit Academy Contact us for first flight and basic flocking courses at your DZ or boogie. www.thebrothersgray.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lurch 0 #16 August 3, 2007 "Over the past year, I've noticed complacency in the pilot/WS jumper communication department. Just a few weeks ago, I was on a 5-way with some visiting jumpers, none of whom told the pilot they were on board. When I did, the response I received was, "I'm sure he knows. Wingsuits are pretty common these days". They also didn't tell manifest. " Second this bit. I almost never jump wingless, so I got complacent about it fast because I usually interact with the pilot in some way, even if only visually, at some point before any given jump. The assumption is if I'm present, theres wingsuits aboard. There are wingsuits on most loads at my DZ as well, so nobody bothers to notify the pilot because he knows the wingsuit crowd and a load going WITHOUT suits would be almost unusual. Visiting other DZs, I DO take the trouble to notify the pilot unless I'm at a place like z-hills at a wingsuit event. I think notifying the pilot will become almost completely redundant in time, though. -BLive and learn... or die, and teach by example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #17 August 3, 2007 Is there anything in this buletin that was not addressed in the Bird-man flight manual, circa 2001? (And for the politico's out there, there were no politico's in those days.) tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeemax 0 #18 August 3, 2007 Quote There are many valid points in the original post, but a jumper by the door, waiting to exit, cannot physically communicate with the pilot. I'm pretty sure you know this Matt, but just to make this clear to anyone newer to the sport: You should not be in the door about to exit before trying to tell the pilot you're there. As a wingsuiter, there's a very high likelyhood you'll be sitting at the front of the plane. It's really important that on every lift you get on, as you get on, you LET THE PILOT KNOW YOU ARE THERE! It really doesn't take a lot. I often find a well timed tap on the pilots shoulder and a waggle of my arm wing is enough. Oviously, this is more suited to my home DZ, where i know the pilot. If you are at a new DZ, or are jumping with a pilot you dont know that well, try and catch them before you board the aircraft. Explain to them your plan and that intend to wingsuit. Not all pilots know about wingsuiting yet, and although some will nod their heads as you mention your wingstuit, they may not realise the implications of what that means to them. Even if you end up in the tail, it doesn't take a lot to get a message to the pilot that you're on board. Lets please try and stay safe We're already a minority in the sport, lets try not to keep it that way Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #19 August 3, 2007 QuoteIs there anything in this buletin that was not addressed in the Bird-man flight manual, circa 2001? (And for the politico's out there, there were no politico's in those days.) t Agreed, If you are in a wingsuit you will not hit the stabilizer unless you allow yourself to hit the stabilizer. With the exception of If the pilot puts the plane in an aggressive dive then it does not matter if the jumper is in a wingsuit or not. This should be regarded as an awareness and communication bulletin. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dploi 0 #20 August 6, 2007 QuoteI think notifying the pilot will become almost completely redundant in time, though. At a busy event or wingsuit-heavy DZ where there is a clear plan, just a simple "WS" next to a jumper's name or group on the manifest sheet should suffice. But it should be there every time. If there is a plan (eg, "wingsuits on board -- pilot descends east, wingsuiters descend west") which must be changed for air traffic, clouds, etc, it's important for the pilot to know so s/he may communicate any changes to the wingsuit jumpers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpinfly 0 #21 August 7, 2007 this past weekend i didn't get on the plane till almost fully loaded. so i was at the very back of the otter. nobody said anything to the pilot, i asked him where jumprun is and all the directions and told him mine before the load went on a call. after the one tandem left i got to the door and the plane started to dive, so i yelled, and both pilots turned around competely surprised to see me. needless to say i'm alive but you can never inform everybody enough.i would if i could but i can't so i won't. or i might. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites