How many skydives before WS?

[Tonto 1]

After reading about the WS fatality yesterday in the Incidents forum, I'm wondering how many in our community think 100 skydives is enough to put on a wingsuit and deal with it when things go wrong.

Incident thread here. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2965379;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[mccordia 74]

I still firmly believe 200 to 250 jumps is and should be the minimum..

There are always a dozen examples of people who had less and did fine..
But crossing a busy highway running while blindfolded, wil also work fine the first few times (at least with me up to this point)

I just think there are a lot of skills in terms of body-posture, controll, flying, awareness and navigation that only develop with 200 full altitude skydives..

No matter what other experience or how 'switched on' people always are thought or claim to be...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[mr_prick 0]

can't speak of others but in my case:
i had 120 skydives when i started. i first did 6 coached jumps on a birdman impact with a bmci. he put me through the whole drill on it, front flips, back flips, barrel rolls, ws pulling etc. to see how i was doing. i then moved on to a classic, still coached and after that got my "cleared for flight". so for me it worked fine. but i focused all my 100 jumps before on freeflying and tracking. also with a coach.
jump numbers mean nothing. i've seen some ugly flights by bellyfallers with very high jump numbers.
as long as you evaluate the skills properly you don't even need to look at the jump numbers.
i think there is a perfect example flying through belgian skies, eh?

i then moved on and also took it off the rock after 100 base jumps and 100 ws skydives

[Tonto 1]

Did you read the part of my thread that said "When things go wrong?"

Have things gone wrong for you yet? Who was your BMCI?

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[mccordia 74]

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jump numbers mean nothing

Noop...as they are only a rough quide to the experience you HOPE someone COULD have when he reaches that rough guideline...

When someone cut corners and did/learned a lot less in those (or more) jumps then he could have...shame...and nice of you to mention those people that have a lot of jumps and suck skillswise...but still...the chances at someone doing better when backed up by more experience are a lot higher...


It just doesnt take away the minimum safety requirement...you've proven its possible to cut corners and have the outcome be safe.....but it doesnt always turn out that way...

sometimes it works...
sometimes it doesnt...

if its works..forum=13;
if it doesnt work out as planned...forum=14;

Also not that the discussion here should NOT be linked to the recent accident. There are still no facts about the actual cause of the accident known. Low experience may be part of the fact-sheet..but has not been determined as the cause of the accident..
My thoughts are with those who have lost a dear friend..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[mr_prick 0]

what do you mean have things gone wrong?
i very rarely get line twists, but none led to a reserve ride yet.
i also had my first and only pc lazy pull/fumble on my very first ws base jump...i made a very stupid mistake( not collapsing the leg wing while searching for the flapping around pc) which sent me head down. so there.
that is the only time so far i really fucked up. ironically i almost killed myself in doing so. it never happended again, though.
generally i really would consider myself a conservative and safe jumper. i don't take stupid risks.

[mr_prick 0]

i didn't link anything to an accident.
ok, you are right jump numbers and the experience coming from it does mean a thing.
what i was trying to say is that there is a difference between someone who is focused and has the will to do something and works for it(my case and i know of others) and your average dz fun jumper who tries this and that and wingsuits get in their way too.
i didn't decide just after jump number 120 that i now want to wingsuit.


oh and ws flying is the only reason i still visit dropzones. ws flying is to most beautiful discipline in the skies, imho.
and, really, it is not that difficult.

[mccordia 74]

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ws flying is to most beautiful discipline in the skies, imho.
and, really, it is not that difficult.

Come fly with us and we'll prove it is..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[dragon2 2]

I really don't think with low jump numbers you should be focussing on freeflying at all. We see more and more problems with wingsuiters diving through formations instead of controlled approaches and docks. A firm basis in belly formations helps out a lot there.

I agree that jumpnumbers don't say everything, but you need awareness, skills and a good attitude to safely fly a wingsuit around the sky, safe for yourself and for others as well. Therefore I wouldn't have let you jump a wingsuit so soon anyway. No way would you have all that so soon.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[dragon2 2]

I vote for 200 and up, totally depending on the jumper but 200 as an absolute minimum.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[normiss 800]

Excellent point, we've seen the incidents where someone with 500+ jumps panics or simply doesn't react with proper EP's on their first cutaway.

I personally know of a number of VERY experienced jumpers having issues on their first wingsuit jump and having to cutaway - some have sworn off wingsuits because of that.
When the shit hits the fan, you have to know how to react. Typically I don't think someone with such low jump numbers is capable.
I also think it was very irresponsible of the WSI that trained him with such low numbers...

We have to be more responsible than this.

Sincere condolences to friends and family as well..

this sucks!

edited to clarify my thoughts on the training...

[NSEMN8R 0]

I don't think it's fair to blame the instructor.

[mccordia 74]

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I don't think it's fair to blame the instructor.

If someone is an instructor, he or she is so, because he makes sure that people have the prior skill and knowledge, and get the proper training and guidence for doing what they are about to undertake..

Nobody is blaming anyone for anything..

The discussion is here is about rules..and how they where designed with the purpoise of keeping people and the sport safe.
People who lack the experience always see it as rules designed to annoy and hinder them...

Quite often those rules where written because of someone else making a mistake and paying for it with his/her life...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[NSEMN8R 0]

Ok. Even if he's not blaming him, I don't think it's fair to say the guy was "very irresponsible".

I've trained guys with 100 or so jumps and I know of more than one manufacturer that has trained people with jump numbers similar to the jumper in the incident.

I'm not saying everyone with 100 jumps should fly a wingsuit, but there are some people who can even when things don't go as planned.

[normiss 800]

how would this not be considered irresponsible?

USPA SIM
Section 6-9 Wingsuit Recommendations state:

C. Qualifications and preparation

Back to Section 6-9


1. Before attempting a wing-suit jump, a skydiver should:

a. have a minimum of 500 freefall skydives; or a minimum of 200 freefall skydives, made within the past 18 months, and receive one-on-one instruction from an experienced wing suit jumper.

Based on information provided, he apparently did not meet these requirements.

[notsane 0]

There's no magic number when people suddenly achieve freefall awareness. That's a point where you are comfortable in freefall and can deal with things in a timely fashion when they go wrong. 200 jumps isn't going to be the answer for everyone, but it's a damn good place to start.

Would you feel comfortable with someone with 100 jumps docking on your 50 way freefall formation? Or docking on your 40 way canopy stack? Even with just a handful of flockers, once this person is out of your sight you're betting with your life that they do the right thing, not scream into your side at high speed. This is no different.

After all, what's the rush? Once they build some skills and some knowledge; at 200 jumps most any of us would be happy to help them join the flock.

[NSEMN8R 0]

That's the USPA's "recommendation". I agree that in most cases it's a pretty reasonable number but not following it doesn't automatically make him irresponsible. It's not like he was an AFF student.

Is there something about this incident that suggests it wouldn't have happened if the guy had 200 jumps or if he wasn't wearing a wingsuit?

[mccordia 74]

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I'm not saying everyone with 100 jumps should fly a wingsuit, but there are some people who can even when things don't go as planned.

Let me finish that scentence for you...

who can even when things don't go as planned..accidently or by a another factor then experience backing them up...do the right thing and stay alive..

If somebody REALLY wants to fly a wingsuit...do the requered few (200 is not a lot to anyone serious about their hobby/passion) jumps to have the little tiny bit of experience asked for...

Sure it CAN work with less...but its NOT CLEVER..and yes...the instructor who trained that person IS largely responsible for what happens next...

If you cant deal with that responsibility when taking up people with TOO LITTLE experience...then dont train people...

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Is there something about this incident that suggests it wouldn't have happened if the guy had 200 jumps or if he wasn't wearing a wingsuit?

No...but I reccon you'd rather send up another inexperienced person to find out if it would happen again?

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[Tonto 1]

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That's the USPA's "recommendation".

Here is PASA's "recomendation." (read "Cast in stone")

Persons who intend to use wing suits must be experienced, current and licensed skydivers. More
important than the number of skydives is whether the skydiver feels comfortable in freefall, can show
ability to control himself while in a long track, has the ability to observe airspace and altitude at the
same time, and feels confident about his ability to perform under pressure.
Before attempting a wing suit jump, a skydiver must:
• have a minimum of 500 freefall skydives; or
• have a minimum of 300 freefall skydives, made within the past 2 years, and receive one-on-one
instruction from a wing suit instructor (an approved wing suit flyer appointed by the National Safety and Training Officer) who
is confident in the jumper’s ability and has received a waiver to the 500 freefall rule from the
PASA Safety and Training Officer.
• have completely read and understood all documentation and training information provided with
the wing suit
• have the ability to perform exits and skydive in the deployment position described in this section
before making a jump with the wing suit.

I can't see how an instructor would be able to stand up at a wrongful death inquest, and confronted with the information provided in this and a prior post, as well as the manufacturers recomendation, and argue that the person was OK to do the jump if they were killed on impact.

Maybe you could explain how you would do that?

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[mr_prick 0]

Quote

Quote

ws flying is to most beautiful discipline in the skies, imho.
and, really, it is not that difficult.

Come fly with us and we'll prove it is..

i tried! twice! but i'm just not lucky weather or schedule wise this year...
if i did i would have of course smoked you, you clog wearing...

oh and by the way notsane, are you seriously comparing a 50 way formation or a 40 way stack with basic wingsuit flying with 2 or 3 people?

[NSEMN8R 0]

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If somebody REALLY wants to fly a wingsuit...do the requered few (200 is not a lot to anyone serious about their hobby/passion) jumps to have the little tiny bit of experience asked for...

200 can be a lot to a guy at a single 182 dz.

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Sure it CAN work with less...but its NOT CLEVER..

I would agree that it's not ALWAYS clever, but I still say it's not ALWAYS irresponsible.

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and yes...the instructor who trained that person IS largely responsible for what happens next...


If you cant deal with that responsibility when taking up people with TOO LITTLE experience...then dont train people...

I definitely don't agree with that. I would feel responsible if something happened based on me giving them some bad information or if I left out something I should have told them that would have changed the outcome, but in no way do I feel responsible for their performance in the air. The credit or the blame is solely theirs and I'm up front about that before we even start.
And if they're light on jumps, I also tell them up front that many more experienced and more qualified wingsuit pilots and instructors would not consider them ready for wingsuits based on their skydiving experience.

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No...but I reccon you'd rather send up another inexperienced person to find out if it would happen again?

It depends on what you call inexperienced. But yes, I'd rather be able to pick who I train based on more than just jump numbers than have some blanket rule applied to everyone because of some knee jerk reation to an unfortunate incident.

[normiss 800]

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some blanket rule applied to everyone because of some knee jerk reation to an unfortunate incident

this wasn't a "blanket rule" applied because of a knee jerk reaction.
These are established guidelines based on years of experience from those that came (and went) before us.

[NSEMN8R 0]

Quote

I can't see how an instructor would be able to stand up at a wrongful death inquest, and confronted with the information provided in this and a prior post, as well as the manufacturers recomendation, and argue that the person was OK to do the jump if they were killed on impact.

Maybe you could explain how you would do that?

t

I guess in SA you'd be screwed in court, but over here the USPA recommendations aren't "cast in stone" and the suits I use don't have a 200 jump minimum requirement from the manufacturer.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should go around talking everyone with 100 jumps into flying a wingsuit. I just think some people should be able to decide for themselves what they can handle and what level of risk is acceptable to them.

[980 0]

I voted 200 in 18 months.

I have a simple procedure when someone with less experience/currency than that wants to really, really get into wingsuit flying:

I tell them what the manufacturer and association(s) recommendations are.

Then I tell them about the PF pants and jacket.

I tell them that if they think they are ready, I will train them and we will do a first flight, but we will be using PF pants and jackets instead of my training Prodigy(s).

It will be a coach jump and I will be shooting video, mainly observing.

They have the normal WS tasks:

stable exit
correct flightpath
heading control and awareness
stable practice pulls
good recovery of stability
pull at correct altitude

I tell them that if they manage these seemingly basic tasks, we move straight onto the Prodigy, but if they have trouble with some of these tasks, they are welcome to use the pants the jacket to work on them (if they were at least safe to send out on their own) and let me know when they think they are ready.

This works great, as the pants and jacket are a little more twitchy than a Prodigy, but without the added complications of wing areas and restriction of movement.

I haven't had one sub 200 jump candidate pass themselves on their initial jump. (I ask them after the jump if they think they are ready to move on)

that's my 2 cents

[NSEMN8R 0]

Quote

Quote

some blanket rule applied to everyone because of some knee jerk reation to an unfortunate incident

this wasn't a "blanket rule" applied because of a knee jerk reaction.
These are established guidelines based on years of experience from those that came (and went) before us.

Right. It's a guideline. And I think it's a good guideline. It's where I would start if I was ever going to work with someone I don't already know very well. All I'm saying is that working outside of the guidelines doesn't automatically make you irresponsible and I'd hate to see it get "cast in stone" as a rule because of this. It's not like we have low jump number guys bouncing all over the place.