Airowpoint 0 #26 November 29, 2007 I disagree with you Jarno, I think you do agree with me. I don't know about the 15 seconds, it's probably more. My point is if you get 20mpg while not flaring or just after exit you can do it for the entire flight as long as you don't get tired. Thats all I'm saying.Tristan Will you answer "NO" to my next question? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 74 #27 November 30, 2007 Quote I disagree with you Jarno, I think you do agree with me. I don't know about the 15 seconds, it's probably more. My point is if you get 20mpg while not flaring or just after exit you can do it for the entire flight as long as you don't get tired. Thats all I'm saying. The problem is that you think a flare means a big push on the wings. You may know how to fly, but you dont always have the science to back it upANY move where you use residual energy from a fallrate/speed/exit above your lowest maintainable fallrate is flaring... It may be able to maintain the 20 mph fallrate for a full jump (or at least 1 minute+ section of a jump), but untill that time, its just a peak reading. And not a maintained fallrate. Its quite easy to prove if its a flare. If the logging device (protrack/altitrack etc) switches off, its because it detected a sudden peak/drop in fallrate, which fooled it into thinking there is an opening. If the device switched off...its a plane-out/swoop/flare..JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bdrake529 0 #28 November 30, 2007 QuoteIf the device switched off...its a plane-out/swoop/flare.. That's not really a reliable indicator as some loggers (like the VISO), have a "SLO" setting that isn't fooled by wingsuit flights. So Jarno, 15 seconds isn't "sustained"; 30 seconds isn't "sustained"; "sustained" means the entire flight avg; but "sustained" also means 1 minute. Sounds fairly arbitrary to me.Brian Drake Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airowpoint 0 #29 November 30, 2007 Stop arguing with me, we agree...Tristan Will you answer "NO" to my next question? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 74 #30 November 30, 2007 QuoteThat's not really a reliable indicator as some loggers (like the VISO), have a "SLO" setting that isn't fooled by wingsuit flights. The device used here is an Altitrack, which I also own and use, and it too has a SLOW mode. And that one can still be 'fooled' As long as the (downward) peak in the reading is sharp enough, it'll switch to canopy mode or quit logging. QuoteSo Jarno, 15 seconds isn't "sustained"; 30 seconds isn't "sustained"; "sustained" means the entire flight avg; but "sustained" also means 1 minute. Sounds fairly arbitrary to me. Not really...sustained means, you're flying for a long period of time, where you are not using any risidual energy from a dive/exit/swoop. When I flare out my wingsuit, I carry that energy on into the next 30 (maybe even more) seconds. So yes. Anything shorter then that timespan is not sustained flight, and most likely a flare/plane-out. Sustained flight idealy is for a full jump. But seing muscle-strength limits what we can fly 'sustained', demanding a full 12 to 15K jump is a bit much. But using a minute (mid jump) as a guideline, knowing there is no dive/exit directly before that recording point in flight, you know that its true sustainable flight, and the 1 minute timespan (if the 20 mph is flown during that entire timespan and not slowly dropping) also makes clear that there is no other energy from a flare/plane-out being used. *edit* Maybe a mod can split this thread (from post #16) off into its own seperate thread, as its just a debate about avg speed /sustainable flight and not really linked to the suit mod tony was posting about?JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #31 November 30, 2007 Quote Quote thats low 20's sustained not peak, Let's see the graph. I was on the jump that Jeff tried it out and I saw his L&B Optima readout from top to bottom. he was in the low 20's for over half the dive. Do you trust me? It was so slow that both mine and his Neptunes shut off nearly immediately after exit. I was flying an S-Fly ProFly on that skydive and my average was in the mid-40's. I was my first flight on that new demo. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 74 #32 November 30, 2007 QuoteI was on the jump that Jeff tried it out and I saw his L&B Optima readout from top to bottom. he was in the low 20's for over half the dive. Do you trust me? Seeing Tony sent me a PM that sayd the Optima quit logging the moment he hit 20 mph out of the door...yes..Id love to see it..JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 74 #33 November 30, 2007 QuoteIt was so slow that both mine and his Neptunes shut off Its a common misconception that the devices stop logging because of certain low speeds. If your data logger (Optima/Protrack/Solo/Naptune) quits logging, it just means you had a change in fallrate that exceeded the set parameters for a canopy opening in terms of deceleration. If you're doing a 180 mph dive, and you suddenly level off/pulll out of the dive (even if you stay above 50 mph after the dive) it also registeres as an opening if the deceleration is rapid enough.JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 74 #34 November 30, 2007 As for the 'flare' action. Attached is a protrack graph from one of my last wingsuit jumps. After an exit at 10.000 ft, I make a big diving turn reaching 140 or so mph. When I level off, the freefall speed starts to drop rapidly. For the next 30 or so seconds, the freefall speed drops to really low vallues (18 mph is the last reading on the graph) and then it takes another 10 to 20 seconds for it to build up again. During a flare like this (which is just me speeding up, using the energy from the faster falling before to speed up/slow down) I can spend 20 to 30 seconds at speeds of way bellow 20 mph. And get a really flat glide (which gets less and less, the longer you hold it) But there is no way this can be called sustained flight. I sadly decelerated too quick on this jump, thus making the device think I opened, but its possible to get similair readings decelerating smoother, not coming out of such an extreme dive. Its way to late now (4:00 Am) but if anyone cares, I can scoot through my jumptrack and print/screen a dozen similar low vallues. Breakoff from anything falling over 40mph makes a nice flaring action possible, with freefall speeds of up to half a minute into the low 20's. But it doesnt mean anything unless its actually sustained...JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heffro1 0 #35 November 30, 2007 can u "flare" from under 30 mph and fly down to low 20s? The only reason I did not hold it for the entire dive was simply that I am not that good I kept changing body positions slighly just to see what was working and what did not. So on this jump my altitrack (which so far has been the most trouble free data collector i have used) spends alot of time at 22, 23, 24, 25mph and ultimatly got down to 21mph. I dont spend alot of time maxing out my suit but rather fly relative to other flyers so i need to improve my max flight skills quite a bit. this week we will explore this further I will get "data evidence" and post it. Thank you, come againBUY A WINGSUIT My Website Tony Suits [url "http:/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bdrake529 0 #36 November 30, 2007 For the record, the Optima and Solo are not loggers and do not record jump data. I'm not trying to split hairs, just don't want people thinking these audibles double as jump computers (though that'd be nice since I have both).Brian Drake Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #37 November 30, 2007 Quote I was on the jump that Jeff tried it out and I saw his L&B Optima readout from top to bottom. he was in the low 20's for over half the dive. Do you trust me? It was so slow that both mine and his Neptunes shut off nearly immediately after exit. I was flying an S-Fly ProFly on that skydive and my average was in the mid-40's. I was my first flight on that new demo. If Jeff was in the low 20's for over half the jump, and you averaged mid-40's, that means Jeff was in the low 60's for the other half of the jump, which means you guys were almost never near each other, so how did he get such a good view of your tail wing fluttering? www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peggs82 0 #38 November 30, 2007 This is quite the pissing match I must say... oh deee zeee dot com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #39 November 30, 2007 QuoteFor the record, the Optima and Solo are not loggers and do not record jump data. You are, of course, absolutely correct. I meant "AltiTrack" when I typed "Optima" earlier. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #40 November 30, 2007 That's not what I said at all. On the jump that Jeff and I jumped together we both flew in the mid 40's. On the previous jump, the first one where he modded his suit, he flew solo and I led a separate three-way. We reviewed his altitrack data after that skydive and that's where he got those numbers. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tony-tonysuits 0 #41 November 30, 2007 This is quite the pissing match I must say... oh deee zeee dot com -------------------------------- Yes I do apologize, all I said was that we got a better slow fall speed with the back of the wing picked off. and to answer the "Flare" questions He had no "residual" speed to flare with, just flat level flight, slowly getting his vertical speed down,Life is a series of wonderful opportunities, brilliantly disguised as impossible situations. tonysuits.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 74 #42 November 30, 2007 Quote That's not what I said at all. You sayd you looked at the track from "top to bottom" but it supposedly switched off the moment he hit 20 mph, so there is just a track ending at that point....which mean there is no complete data from top to bottom or avg./sustained speed.. Im not saying its impossible, far from it, but these claims tend to impress a lot more people when they are actually backed up by data instead of guess-temates..The track I posted quits at 18 mph. I guess I could say I flew 18 mph sustained for the rest of the jump now? As I believe thats what I was flying the rest of the jumpJC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 74 #43 November 30, 2007 Quote He had no "residual" speed to flare with, just flat level flight, slowly getting his vertical speed down, If you have speed left to slow down from, then you are still left with residual speed/energy to slow down tony... Even 5 mph above your lowest possible fallrate means the suit is technicaly 'diving' with extra speed/energy left to use in slowing down/flaring. Seeing the 21 mph is the lowest possible sustained flight according to you guys, all speeds above that are technicaly slight dives, with energy you can carry on into a plane-out when trying to aim for the lowst possible fallrate. Its not a pissing contest...its end/peak data being posted, seeing it quit the moment the fallrate was hit, and incorrectly labeled as sustained flight... Its not sustained flight untill you can maintain that speed for a longer period, past the 1 minute mark where you are sure there is no leftover energy from before that time. And THEN actually having full flight data to back up the claim.. Great toys..but when you post tech data, make sure its complete and correctAgain..not saying its not possible...but go back up...repeat it (and try and make it smooth, as too rapid descelerations on flaring make an altitrack stop logging) and the show the full plot...I'll be the first to congratulate you on the actual achievement.. And yes...you probably dont like this flying piece of Euro-trash too much now heheheJC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 74 #44 November 30, 2007 ps. I made my point 10 posts back, the rest is just me annoying you guys and having fun JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heffro1 0 #45 November 30, 2007 The altitrack keeps loging speeds even after the little canopy icon is displayed. So it does not seem to turn off, or at least so far, the only thing that it stopped doing was computing the average speed which I dont care about. Today is another day so as soon as the fog clears I'll get on it. And yes...you probably dont like this flying piece of Euro-trash too much now heheheWinkTongue Don't worrie we are not haters, and besides you might be a potential future customer. I did not know Euro-trash could fly.BUY A WINGSUIT My Website Tony Suits [url "http:/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kunstrasen 0 #46 November 30, 2007 First of all: I like new developements in WS, no matter which maker. It helps us all. But this Tony advertising things starts to get boring. How many threads do we have with new developed super duper whatever flyings suits? But finaly they all end up the same: Somebody steps in and asks for data. And suddendly something is wrong, something did not work, bla bla. End of story: No data. So what´s up guys? Show some proof and the endless discussions will stop... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 74 #47 November 30, 2007 All the non-data aside...any chance at actually showing some pics on the mod, before everyone starts cutting wings off their suit in the wrong places?We'll show you eurotrash can fly next summer... JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tony-tonysuits 0 #48 November 30, 2007 You sayd you looked at the track from "top to bottom" but it supposedly switched off the moment he hit 20 mph, so there is just a track ending at that point....which mean there is no complete data from top to bottom or avg./sustained speed.. ------------------- uh uh, even though the Altitrack thinks he pulled it still reads of your vertical speed, oh yes by gollyLife is a series of wonderful opportunities, brilliantly disguised as impossible situations. tonysuits.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tony-tonysuits 0 #49 November 30, 2007 All the non-data aside...any chance at actually showing some pics on the mod, before everyone starts cutting wings off their suit in the wrong places? We'll show you eurotrash can fly next summer... -------------------------------------- ok we'll go get pix, its a bit cloudy in paradise today so we'll go to the shop and do it, I can blow the wings up with my in house wind tunnel, [a leaf blower] and your not trashy just a little misguided,but we'll be there, oh yes a power house, like the US dolor used to be and will be again, one day, soon, fairly soon, my goodness have you seen the exchange rate, good time to buy US goods Life is a series of wonderful opportunities, brilliantly disguised as impossible situations. tonysuits.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 74 #50 November 30, 2007 Quote ------------------- uh uh, even though the Altitrack thinks he pulled it still reads of your vertical speed, oh yes by golly Then dont waste another second and attach it to this thread already...we wanna see them flaresJC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
