mccordia 74 #26 November 3, 2008 Quote Why not do more tracking dives before wingsuiting? Aaaaand fixed itJC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #27 November 3, 2008 Quote Quote Why not do more tracking dives before wingsuiting? Aaaaand fixed it Nope, you broke it."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #28 November 3, 2008 I'll probably be at SDC a couple more times before they close for the winter. I'd be pleased to jump with you. Betty has a WS too.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skittles_of_SDC 0 #29 November 3, 2008 Quote Quote Quote You guys have never seen someone with "enough" jumps have weak leg position on their first flight??? . I've certainly seen it, I was one of those myself, even though I waited til nearly 400 jumps for my first wingsuit jump, and then waited another 200 jumps due to a horrible first-jump experience. You'd have to ask Scott Campos how I did on my 'second' first-jump. I've also seen a person with 8 times the "enough jumps" get into a hairy situation and nearly blow it. It's more than the nylon itself, IMO. Traffic pattern, awareness of other canopies, experience in bad situations. My first WX jump...I got by without injury BECAUSE I had nearly 500 jumps behind me. Luck and experience combined kept me from anything more bruised than my ego. I f''d up recently and taught someone with only 170 jumps. He is a *very* current and heads-up guy, which colored my thinking. I learned my lesson after he had a cutaway on a borrowed rig and lost the freebag in the desert. Would another 30 jumps have made all the difference? He panicked in both deployment and linetwists. Would he have been more calm with more jumps? Maybe, maybe not. It did teach me to be a better instructor, and it did teach me to watch for some things I'd not been trained/taught to watch for. Personally, I was very embarassed at my error and glad it didn't go worse. 200 jumps is the USPA-recommended minimum, and based on the stupidity of my earlier ignorance of the BSR, I'm sticking to the rules from now on. I usually learn in one. YMMV. I feel like I have to defend myself here. I had 171 jumps at the time I did my first wingsuit jump. Idk what you consider very current as far as how many months you extend back but I have done all my jumps since May 24, 2008. My deployment went well, I had no trouble finding the hacky or pulliing, I opened with line twists but considering I started my deployment sequence at 5500' and was fully open at about 4500ish i had plenty of time to kick out and was out of them at about 4200'-4000'. I'd also like to add that I did 2 more solos after and both went great from a safety standpoint. Exit went well, stable pretty quick, flew the pattern, waived off with the legs at 5500' and threw with both arms, tucked in and let the parachute do its thing. No problems at all, I didn't even have a line twist on either of the solos. I know this wont make you change your opinion about whether I am ready to jump a wingsuit yet. I guess what I'm trying to point out is that just because the guy you took was not ready at 170 jumps doesn't mean none of us are. Everything I said was meant with no disrespect in mind. Anyone that can flock with a space shuttle in the background has my respect. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skittles_of_SDC 0 #30 November 3, 2008 Yeah, I met Betty yesterday she was out there with that wingsuit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 74 #31 November 3, 2008 skittles, I dont think DSE's reply was ment as a personal attack. Merely a *sigh* with regards to the ever sliding 'standards' that people use for safety and training...JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skittles_of_SDC 0 #32 November 3, 2008 Quoteskittles, I dont think DSE's reply was ment as a personal attack. Merely a *sigh* with regards to the ever sliding 'standards' that people use for safety and training... Yes I realize it was not a personal attack. When I said defend myself I guess I meant my actions. See thats where I disagree. Why is it that according to today's 'standards' I can, according to most people, not be ready at 200, yet at the same time it seems like it's never possible to be ready before 200? That applies to other things as well, not just wingsuits (no I'm not jumping camera or BASE jumping yet. Simply trying to make a point). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #33 November 3, 2008 Quote I guess what I'm trying to point out is that just because the guy you took was not ready at 170 jumps doesn't mean none of us are. Everything I said was meant with no disrespect in mind. Anyone that can flock with a space shuttle in the background has my respect. Not having seen you fly...I'll use my input to say that the person I took is no more, no less ready than you. He has the same number of jumps in approximately the same time frame. He is very current, very capable, and it was his birthday. Can't at all blame you for being excited for wanting to fly a wingsuit. I was the same about cameras. However, the BSR's are what they are, because of skydivers who have gone before most of us. 200 jumps sure seems like a lot of jumps until you've got double that number. When you hit 1000, it seems like nothing. I'm sure to the 10K guys out there, it seems like you're still in AFF as far as wingsuits go. I can think of more than one skydiver with more than 5K skydives that won't regard anyone with lesser numbers as having any value or skill...that's nuts and more than one of them are skygods of the worst kind. But...200 is the number recommended by manufacturers and USPA. Since I hold USPA ratings, at some level it's a responsiblility to observe that BSR. I've violated it once. I am bothered that I did so. And won't repeat that error. He was my second student, and I was overly excited. IMO, it was my responsibility to keep him inside the BSR's, not his to keep me observant. IMV, this entire discussion isn't about you. It's about instructors, and about those people that are itching to wear nylon, but can't because they haven't reached the numbers. 200 doesn't mean you're ready to go, it merely means you've reached a threshold when you can be considered to go. Why have a BSR if folks are willing to violate it, and more importantly, when the USPA does get off their collective ass and create a WSI rating (and it is absolutely coming, you better believe it), why shouldn't they just say "500 jumps" period? Obviously, the 200 jumps in 19 months with coach isn't working out the way it was expected to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 74 #34 November 3, 2008 The bottom line is..you need experience, and the more you have, the better. Though some do take to things a bit easier than others, even those few who do okay, will (as will you probably) look back at this point in time, about 500 to a 100 jumps further and realise you hardly knew anything (in terms of skills/awareness). The 200 is a bare minimum which we use as a rough guide for those without patience....at the rate you are jumping, an additional 50 to 100 jumps would have definately benifited your flying. Maybe not from a performance POV. but definatey from a safety POV. I would really like to hear your view on this subject in a year or so when you have double the experience you now have, and see if your stance on this subject has changed by then...(mainly how you see your awereness and skills at that point in your jumping career, and how with hindsight, it was at the 175 you are at now) In the people Ive taken on FFCs, the experience always showed. Though some jumpers may suck at the performance part (big arched back, fallrates of a homesick anvill) from a safety and awereness pov. I definately see a lot better things coming from those with more experience, especialy when things dont go completely according to plan. And my biggest issue is..people who do okay on their first jumps, regardless of their (be it little or big) lack of experience, always seem to be an example for the talentless/dangerous/rebellious peeps who see it as their tickets to fly with even less experience (and more-off...less talent). Id rather be strict with the guidelines.. typed on my mobile..so scuzz the typosJC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skittles_of_SDC 0 #35 November 3, 2008 QuoteThe bottom line is..you need experience, and the more you have, the better. Though some do take to things a bit easier than others, even those few who do okay, will (as will you probably) look back at this point in time, about 500 to a 100 jumps further and realise you hardly knew anything (in terms of skills/awareness). The 200 is a bare minimum which we use as a rough guide for those without patience....at the rate you are jumping, an additional 50 to 100 jumps would have definately benifited your flying. Maybe not from a performance POV. but definatey from a safety POV. I would really like to hear your view on this subject in a year or so when you have double the experience you now have, and see if your stance on this subject has changed by then...(mainly how you see your awereness and skills at that point in your jumping career, and how with hindsight, it was at the 175 you are at now) In the people Ive taken on FFCs, the experience always showed. Though some jumpers may suck at the performance part (big arched back, fallrates of a homesick anvill) from a safety and awereness pov. I definately see a lot better things coming from those with more experience, especialy when things dont go completely according to plan. And my biggest issue is..people who do okay on their first jumps, regardless of their (be it little or big) lack of experience, always seem to be an example for the talentless/dangerous/rebellious peeps who see it as their tickets to fly with even less experience (and more-off...less talent). Id rather be strict with the guidelines.. typed on my mobile..so scuzz the typos DSE made this point as well. I agree there is a very good chance that when I look back in a few years I will think 'WTF, was I thinking'. Maybe it's just because I'm a newbie but I felt I was safe (yes i know i have almost no experience). I keep thinking back to those dives and try to think of anything I can that I (again I don't have that much experience) could consider unsafe and nothing comes to mind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 74 #36 November 3, 2008 I dont think anyone is disputing the safety of your first jump, but only pointing out the additional safety and awereness that comes with more experience. I also hope this whole discussion (which is more aimed at the people giving the instruction to lowtimers) doesnt take away one bit of the fun and enjoyment of your first jump...JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skittles_of_SDC 0 #37 November 4, 2008 Absolutely not. Nothing could take away that fun and excitement. It will go down in memory at the top of the list with my grad jump and my 100th jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #38 November 4, 2008 Quote... why shouldn't they just say "500 jumps" period? Because there are people who don't need 500 or even 200 jumps. I started before 200 jumps (and I didn't have a coach or instructor or take a course). QuoteObviously, the 200 jumps in 19 months with coach isn't working out the way it was expected to. People don't hit a magic number and start swooping. Why should they hit a magic number and start wingsuiting? Learn to track ..."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #39 November 4, 2008 Quote Because there are people who don't need 500 or even 200 jumps. I started before 200 jumps (and I didn't have a coach or instructor or take a course). ... Perhaps this is why some have privately given you your own "Bounce Bingo" number. Me...I'm not that cruel. I'd just call it a crater looking for a coordinate.Then again...maybe you have mad skillz. The incidents forum is *filled* with mad skillz guys. I honestly hope you're never one of them. Maybe...you're just lucky. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnskydiver688 0 #40 November 4, 2008 While endorsing such behavior would taint my reputation, I have seen Buttermilk take a different approach than most with his numbers. First of all he has more tracking dives than I think anyone with his numbers has, (well over 100) and he annoyed the shit out of one of the local wingsuit guys with questions. This was not a sudden idea that struck him at 100 some jumps. Would I have been ready at 200 jumps, I'm not sure. Do I think he is a crater waiting for coordinates? Eh. With a name like Butters, it has to be good. Sky Canyon Wingsuiters Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #41 November 4, 2008 QuotePerhaps this is why some people that don't know you have privately given you your own "Bounce Bingo" number. Me...I'm not that cruel. I'd just call it a crater looking for a coordinate. Fixed it for you. QuoteThen again...maybe you have mad skillz. Nope, I don't have mad skills (but I'm working on it). QuoteThe incidents forum is *filled* with mad skillz guys. Some of the guys did. Some of the guys didn't. All the guys had incidents. QuoteI honestly hope you're never one of them. Me too."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NSEMN8R 0 #42 November 4, 2008 There are tons of people out there flying wingsuits with <200 jumps without problems. I've trained several of them myself. None of them have ever given me a reason to think it was a bad idea. I guess they're all just lucky... Why would USPA get involved in WS instruction?? People are way more likely to get hurt by corking freeflyers or botched hooks. You don't see any USPA freefly instructor ratings or USPA Swoop Coach ratings. Not that I don't believe it will happen. If those fuckers can think of a way to get another $40 out of our pockets, I'm sure they will do it. I just don't think it's necessary for anyone's safety. That being said, I've had this conversation with the manufacturers of both of the suits I use for first flight courses. If either one tells me to stop letting people with <200 jumps fly their suits I will absolutely respect their request. Until then, I will evaluate each student and each situation individually using my own judgement. That's worked out just fine for everyone involved so far. Other people can choose to blindly follow that stupid rule if they want. I really think this whole jump number thing is just a weird internet phenomenon. People in real life don't seem to get as fired up about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
