Paying for pictures

[Trae 1]

in reply to"So the trend seems to be - the video guy gets free slots on jumps - then if you want a picture you have to pay for it
How does this make sense at all? "
....................................................

The best stills I have I paid for over and above any slot fees. A professional freelance photographer took them without my knowledge and sold them to me after showing them to me.
My friends and family are still enjoying them .
Video taken of countless events are collecting dust somewhere.
You pays for what yous gets.

.

[notsane 0]

Jason,

I never know when you're screwing with people or really looking for a new perspective.

If anyone has the idea that the wingsuit photographers are making a buck on everyone's back, then they just haven't done the math. (it's pretty simple, folks)

If the photog gets the slot for free from the DZ ... you're not paying for it ... you get your video debrief for free (aren't you lucky?) ... if you want pic, printed or digital ... you buy it from the photog. After all, they risked their necks and thousands of dollars worth of equipment to give you that opportunity. What did you risk?

On the other hand, if you pay a buck to the photog to cover his slot, you get the video debrief. You get to see your wonderous self doing cool stuff on video. He might even firewire the video to you. But as far as the stills go, see the previous paragraph. How can paying $20 for a print of your cool ass be an issue to someone who just paid $25 to jump, $6 to pack and is wearing $6000+ worth of gear to do it? Please, educate me how you've gained the right to the photographer's efforts?

You did bring up the load organizing (LO) aspect, and I'll happily chime in there too.

The DZ always covers the LO slot, so the jumpers don't. Why? So the event can be advertised having a safe, experienced organizer ... thus bringing more people to jump. What do jumpers get for coming to a boogie where there's an experienced organizer? They can attend an event , enjoy themselves, and for the cost of a jump ticket .. feel safe in the knowledge that the LO has placed people where they belong, exited the plane where we all belong and guided us all to where we can open and land safely. An LO who is worth their slot takes all this shit as serious as a fucking heart attack. There are 5, 10 or 50 lives following the LO, not looking at the terrain. LO's who are worth their slot don't back-fly and pay no attention where they are going, guiding the flock into the swamp. They don't exit miles out to sea. They don't hand off leading the flock to a noobie and fly camera far above. Anyone who follows me out the door knows that I'm doing everything I know how to make this fun and safe. Hopefully that's worth a couple of slices of pizza to anyone who flies behind me.

If none of the above makes sense, jump without a photog or LO. No one's forcing it on you. Or strap a camera to your head and have at it. That doesn't make you a wingsuit photographer any more than strapping on a spacesuit makes you an astronaut, but have at it.

But, I still think you're just trying to kick up the shit ...

Scott

[voodew1 0]

Scott,
This was meant to stir up shit but also make people think about how it all works.

Its not about when the DZ comps LO slots or even video slot (which is how it works for 4 way training (RW))

It all has to do with when the jumpers have to pay to put the video guy on the load(yes it might only be $1 but I was never asked or see how its right to pay to put him/her there) - I don't care about when the slots are comped

In fact this came to me from an RW event where I was shooting video and was told I could not give away my video /stills (there were 2 video guys)---- I didn't have to pay for packjobs - $35 registration or even $25 jump tickets and some of the jump tickets were more as we went to 18K
All I had to do was down load the video and walk away

So I emailed pictures against the head video guys wishes as I think its bullshit - to my surprise some of the old time jumpers (in the photos) bitched at me for not charging for video or stills - when I explained how they paid for all my jumping - they kind of changed their tune a bit which made me think.........nobody really thinks about this shit it is just the way it is

It really had nothing to do with wingsuit photography but its no different - what gets me is there are some financially stable guys shooting video / taking stills (this means you either have a good job or inherited a lot of money) in both the RW/FF and wingsuit disciplines but they act like if they don't sell a picture they are going to not eat - it comes from once you get paid to skydive you think your better then everyone else and you get addicted to being paid to jump - I know this I was there a few years ago - I was an asshole.......hard to believe I know

Scott your posts when meant to be are really thought out and well spoken while I just fly off spewing vile through the keyboard - I will agree most of the time I just get bored and want to watch what happens from my posts - BUT THERE IS ALWAYS SOME TRUTH TO WHAT I WRITE! I am not here to make friends - I have friends - I don't always try to piss off people but if I do I don't care - its the internet and its fun to get everyones panties in a wad when I call bullshit on what is being said.
There are so many followers and so few leaders and the leaders really don't know how to lead they only know how to self promote for there own benefit.

Most recent perfect example:
Wingsuit shuttle jump --- the video was horrible yet comments were how great it was -- it was not -- then it was said well it wasn't Matt or Scotty ----- Well it wasn't Matt but who do you think was shooting video of Jeff and Mike?
That is what happens when all the newer guys look up to the gods of wingsuit - you can do no wrong ------ we all know that the wingsuit god did wrong to the greatest level - we just don't talk about that.

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[Skwrl 56]

So, are you bitching that some people thought a shaky video that was a little on the dark/underexposed side was neat? It was neat. Not because it was the best video ever, but because it caught a pretty cool moment in time.

I mean, I don't think anyone think it compares aesthetically to some of the better stuff that Matt, Scotty, etc. have put out in the past, but it's still fun to watch and think about participating in a Shuttle jump. I was exploring plane tickets to get down to jump with those guys (which in retrospect is good I didn't, because I would have been there for the scrubbed launch). It's great that I got to live it vicariously.

I think that's pretty far from hero worship. Hell, I'm almost fucking 40 years old - the only hero I worship is the motherfucking Sumerian dude who invented beer. Do I appreciate what the video guys do, though? Sure.

On the other issue, don't want to be paid for your video? Don't ask to be. Don't want to pay for video? Don't agree to, and use someone who doesn't charge for video. It's that simple. If someone wants to do that for you, cool. I don't think any of the video guys that we're talking about will object. But this being America, they can offer their services for a fee - you can agree to pay it or not. If they want to say, "hey, it's good to support video dudes", all the more power to them. You're free to disagree.

Personally, I think it's short money to pay a buck for a video debrief - and that's what you're paying the buck for.

And so fucking what if people make money skydiving? Yes, it's a hobby for many people. So is bowling. Some people make a living bowling. Is that wrong? In fact, I'm happy that some people can make a living doing this shit - we end up with better products, better events, and a better experience overall because some people can dedicate more time than people like you and I can.

Do I wish I could make the money I make at my day job if I was skydiving instead? Sure. But it's not likely to happen, and I like and need cash (and so does my wife), so personally, I can't do it. If a giant sack of money fell out of the sky at my feet and I could, then I'd be doing the same thing. But I don't see why we should bitch about people who are making a go at it. You don't want to support them? Don't. I can choose otherwise.

I know I'm not going to convince you on anything, but not everyone shares your point of view, either.

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[DSE 5]

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I will agree most of the time I just get bored and want to watch what happens from my posts - BUT THERE IS ALWAYS SOME TRUTH TO WHAT I WRITE! I am not here to make friends - I have friends -

And there is truth in what you've "discovered" in this "poll;" People don't like to pay for anything they don't have to. I haven't paid for a concert in years...I probably wouldn't go if I had to, Coldplay just doesn't excite me enough to spend 500.00

Flip side. you receive a call to come fix an A/C system. Blower bearings are shot; you replace those. But in the process, you discover the thermostat is broken. You have a thermostat in your truck. Do you give it away, plus your labor to install it for free "because you happen to be there hired to replace the blower bearings?" After all, thermostats are practically free, and you're there anyway, so it's no extra time...

Everything we all do is a hobby we get paid for.

[voodew1 0]

I am not really sure how your example pertains to this but:
No I would charge for the part and the labor but not the trip charge - I assume your talking about you were there shooting video and the pics were the thermostat?
If that is the case - if you gave the video then charge for the pics - if you gave nothing then I what is your point. I simply think the free ride shouldn't be there - for your slot give a product - you were paid a slot for what - because you have a camera helmet? I wear one on every jump does that mean I should never pay for my slot?

But on the flip side yesterday I went and replaced batteries in a programmable thermostat (batteries supplied by the home owner) which wasn't working

I shook the homeowners hand and told him to call me when he had a real problem --- no charge

While we're at it - warranty - I have to spend my labor to fix a unit under manufactures warranty that I put in - parts are provided but labor is not - once again the cost of doing business - There is no warranty in skydiving - if the camera doesn't work you give a refund correct? Yeah didn't think so

You will not find anyone who will dispute what I have done / continue to do for the skydiving world - be it gear at cost - shooting video or stills for free and even paying my own slot - giving away wingsuit demo suits that I don't need etc.
I do this because its the right way to promote skydiving - and I enjoy helping bring others into this sport
I on the other hand think money hungry professional skydivers do a giant disservice!

And by the way nice threatening phone call dick head! (not you Spot) it just really proves the point - if you are just promoting wingsuiting as you say why is there a price tag for that promotion
In business the promotion costs the contractor money in hopes of making some in the future

It seems that from the PM's and posts - that most are in agreement with me and the ones that aren't really just want to skydive for free and claim some sort of right to do so because their name is ...............

There is a right and wrong - what's ethical and whats not.
Quit thinking about what you might have to pay for and start thinking of the whats right and whats wrong

I sleep good at night knowing I have not wronged.
If you think this has wronged you in anyway maybe you need to step back and look in the mirror and figure out why you feel that way

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[notsane 0]

Jason,

I still think you're just trying to stir it up again ... there's quite a history of that. And I'm sure you're laughing your ass off watching everyone thrash around. No amount of reasoning or impassioned prose will stop the antics until everyone just plain gets tired of it and moves on. So here I am, tired of it and moving on ....

Scott

[bodypilot1 0]

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I sleep good at night knowing I have not wronged.

Oh Puh...LEASE Gimme a fuckin BREAK!

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[PhoenixRising 0]

Oh Puh...LEASE Gimme a fuckin BREAK!

hahahahahahahahaaha

sayeth the AX man.

Fucking love it ED!

Justin

Wingsuit organizing, first flight courses and coaching
Flock University
Tonysuits

[Bolas 5]

Here's my take.

For slots, video, stills

If you ask for it, you should pay.

If they give it to you for free, if you don't pay, buy them a beer or do something to show you appreciate the gift.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Butters 0]

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They can attend an event , enjoy themselves, and for the cost of a jump ticket .. feel safe in the knowledge that the LO has placed people where they belong, exited the plane where we all belong and guided us all to where we can open and land safely.

In my limited experience I wouldn't recommend feeling safe that the load organizer has placed people where they belong, exited the plane where we all belong, or guided us all to where we can open and land safely.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[DSE 5]

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In my limited experience I wouldn't recommend feeling safe....

Your first line is right; "limited experience."
It doesn't take long for you to quickly figure out which L/O's are looking out for the group and which L/O's are just "there."
There will always be a select few dedicated to being the best they can be and are looking out for the broad scope.
Wait'll you're in a plane with Scott Bland, you can see a hole, but he won't go because he can't be 110% sure everyone can find their way... You ride the plane back down or exit as a solo at your own risk. Two of the solo's that exited at their own risk barely made it to the DZ and the DZ suspended loads immediately following. Scott B. is one you can always trust, and trust with a blindfold on. There are others, but they're damn few (in my own "limited" experience).

[Butters 0]

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In my limited experience I wouldn't recommend feeling safe....

Your first line is right; "limited experience."
It doesn't take long for you to quickly figure out which L/O's are looking out for the group and which L/O's are just "there."
There will always be a select few dedicated to being the best they can be and are looking out for the broad scope.
Wait'll you're in a plane with Scott Bland, you can see a hole, but he won't go because he can't be 110% sure everyone can find their way... You ride the plane back down or exit as a solo at your own risk. Two of the solo's that exited at their own risk barely made it to the DZ and the DZ suspended loads immediately following. Scott B. is one you can always trust, and trust with a blindfold on. There are others, but they're damn few (in my own "limited" experience).

I've been on a load that Scott Bland organized (and I thoroughly enjoyed it). Just because there is a load organizer does not mean you should feel safe about any of those things mentioned ...

PS: So, why don't those with more experience mention who should and shouldn't be trusted?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[pattersd 0]

Trust no one!

[voodew1 0]

Somebody with such limited experience shouldn't think so much -- just be a follower like the rest

Butters with your limited experience --- I AM IMPRESSED - you can think outside the hype

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[Skwrl 56]

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trust no one

Wisdom. Only the paranoid survive - and even that's not guaranteed.

But I think what Butters was getting at was that your LO can do everything 100% right and you can still die.

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[hjumper33 0]

Make sure to always listen to the people who will go out of their way to give advice at all costs, will never ever be wrong (or at least will never admit they are) and love to be the ones who are the head of the group. These can be found easily by looking at the number of posts next to their names.

[DSE 5]

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PS: So, why don't those with more experience mention who should and shouldn't be trusted?

The wingsuit community is already too friggin' political without going down that road/

Trust no one, but know who you're willing to accept leadership from vs who you'd want to argue with. There are few, IMO.
Whatever you do (can you believe I'm going along with Jason?), don't just trust what you're told. It won't take long to figure out, IMO.

[VectorBoy 0]

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PS: So, why don't those with more experience mention who should and shouldn't be trusted?

The wingsuit community is already too friggin' political without going down that road/

Not for me- no names but there is a very easy recipe to figure the players and help "you can think outside the hype"

1 If a guy keeps telling you he's an instructor and you should fly like this or that, strike one. Worse if they keep saying its the best most stringent program ever with only carefully selected instructor candidates.

2 If a guy is dual brand instructor, kiss of death, this should be strike three because there isn't three brands.

3 A guy who regularly organizes but can't show you anything better than misaligned 8-way flock and mass mayhem exits of doom to his credit despite doing this for years. If there is a lot of hype but nothing to show for it then there you go.

4 If an instructor/organizer's events are not fun to fly in. You feel chastised and lectured but not organized.

5 If an instructor/organizer has no problem going to the DZO or S&TA to say who should or should not be flying this style or level of wingsuit or a wingsuit at all but yet can't be bothered to assist instructionally.


There are exceptions to these indicators as an example dual brand rated instructor/ organizers who do organize large safe, successful, fun flights and events on a regular basses. These events speak for them selves.

There are also some low profile suit brokers that despite having an instructor badge just deal in suits that don't profess great knowledge and ability and don't meddle with the hype. You can at least trust them to take a measurement.

[stoney3434 0]

DITTO to ALL on Quiet Storm's posting,...including helping out with 40/20/10/5 or 10 or 5 bucks , a pizza and beer and/or a steak (or whatever) for our skilled photographers.( "if and when you have" the resources to do so) I've seen Avery out in Elsinore set the gold standard for all of us to remember in terms of helping our core group of wingsuit flyers in the way he can. I choose to share his philosophy on the gift of being a giver and sharer. He couldn't be any other way.

I have seen and been honored to experienced both Scotty Burns and Matt Hoover also showing their understanding of the personal satisfaction of givng without expectationor obligation ( when they feel they are not being taken advantage of and are dealing with others who recognise their talent, their investments and their value, or maybe see just the "personal worth" of one very "special shot" and are wiliing to pay a reasonable price for the value they receive.

For others,( and there are always "others") there has to be some form of minimum price or maybe a trade barter or something of acceptable exchange for a picture or video, otherwise Matt and Scotty would spend their off-hours making free prints for "those others" who WILL take advantage of anything free and not even give it a thought.

Scotty Burns and Matt have done so much of great value for everyone's flocking capabilities just by virtue of their skills flying in around above and below us SAFELY and taking the good shots at several angles for our debriefs. What we think we did and saw on the jump doesn't always match up to what the video and the stills show. They are helping all of us get better and identify potential safety situations. Sooo,...in effect the photgraphers are a key component both our ongoing joy and of our ongoing instruction and improvement programs , even if those are only self imposed.

The artistic talent of Scotty ,Matt, Harry and of Spot in doing editing is GRAVY but very tasty gravy... I have no idea how they get those great shots with the sun and mountains and moon and stuff the way they do ,..but it happens too much for it to be luck.

Artists always struggle ,..but artists also must travel and live and invest in their media.

I'm getting sick of seeing people all over the world feeling a sense of entitlement to receive at no cost the benefit from others talent , hard work, time invested in learning/practice and their pride in doing their best .

I'll pay for any pics and videos I want and I'm just thankful to see Scotty, Matt , Harry, Justin, Jeff, Zach or anyone else on the load with a camera I don't have.

Life is what happens while we are making other plans.