DSE 5
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fasted3 0
The key words there are recommendation and regulation. Were it a regulation presented in the SIM by the USPA then dropzones, vendors, and instructors, coaches, or friends would not let people fly with less than 200 jumps.
The question is should it be a regulation? If so, it seems like it could be, given the types of accidents we've seen. If we generally get behind it, that would probably influence the USPA to some extent.
The question is should it be a regulation? If so, it seems like it could be, given the types of accidents we've seen. If we generally get behind it, that would probably influence the USPA to some extent.
But what do I know?
QuoteI know with a 100% certainty that Race Price and Dan Kulpa would not have died at jumps 118 and 110 had their instructors followed the currently established recommendations. Dan Kulpa would have turned 23 years old today.
Putting all the blame on the instructors is unfair. Both these young men knew they were violating the established recommendations, and sought out "instructors" who didn't care.
Who is responsible for your skydive?
I know with a 100% certainty that Race Price and Dan Kulpa would not have died at jumps 118 and 110 had their instructors followed the currently established recommendations.
Quote
That is a HUGE assumption. What you mean to express is that they would not have died with the assistance of an instructor type to blame. But in each of these liscensed and qualified to self regulate skydiver's cases they were previously turned away by someone who explained why. They each knew they were traveling beyond what was recommended for their experience level. They were bound and determined.
I'm not sure Price suffered from a situation 100% directly related to wingsuits, to me it sounds like altitude awareness. I loathe to speculate in these fatalities. Dan's issue with legstraps after a second acceptable flight? Altitude awareness and proper harness/container fitment were taught in AFF.
Back before my first wingsuit flight myself and six or seven other guys already owned our own suit and the manuals or copys of. Do you want to venture a guess as to how many in our group got intructors for the first flights?
You will never ever regulate an under experienced jumper getting their hands on too small of a canopy or a wingsuit. The concept is pure fantasy!
DSE 5
Back up the bus. I'm not putting ANY responsibility for the fatalities on the instructors, and if it appears that way, mea culpa.
These young men knew they were violating the rules; they're 100% responsible for their failure/fatality, just as I was responsible for the fuckups that occurred on my first flight.
That said...
A responsible skydiver who wants to learn a new discipline responsibily seeks out someone who can train them, guide them, and teach them. If the instructor fails to teach something critical, is it the student's fault for not knowing what he doesn't know?
An example I recently used:
A new skydiver wanting to know more about flying camera with a tandem came to me asking if I'd show him some things. We started out with safety discussions such as being aware/clear of the deploying drogue, being under/over the tandem, cone of danger, etc. Suppose I forget to teach him about the trap door that a tandem might catch him with, and he falls into that burble, taking out himself, the TI, and the student. Do I or don't I bear some accountability as an "authority figure" asked to train? I submit that I do. I'm not responsible for the incident, but I should be held accountable for what I failed to teach, just as an AFF instructor is accountable for what he/she may fail to teach?
Glenn says:
Agreed, these guys knew they were stepping out of the boundaries, and were determined. In Kulpa's case, he drove all the way across Florida on New Year's Day to get to a DZ where he knew he could get coaching.
No one should be looking to place blame on the instructors involved in either of these fatalities. The "blame" has to lie with the deceased in both of these instances.
I don't agree it's a huge assumption that they wouldn't have died, however. They may have still gone in, but they wouldn't have gone in on THAT particular day, were there a fear of official repercussion from an officating body. At least that's my take on it. If I know I could lose my rating, license, ability to skydive because I take someone out on a wingsuit jump before they reach required or recommended numbers, then I'm not even going to think twice about saying "no." The risk/reward is just too high. Perhaps I simply feel a higher degree of responsibility to my students than others may feel. If in my non-skydiver training world I fail to teach a critical component of an exercise, no one will die, they simply may lose their job. But they'll look to me to bear some level of accountability for failing to fully inform. In other words, I might not be indictable, but I believe I'm guilty of dereliction of duty.
I find that reprehensible.
These young men knew they were violating the rules; they're 100% responsible for their failure/fatality, just as I was responsible for the fuckups that occurred on my first flight.
That said...
A responsible skydiver who wants to learn a new discipline responsibily seeks out someone who can train them, guide them, and teach them. If the instructor fails to teach something critical, is it the student's fault for not knowing what he doesn't know?
An example I recently used:
A new skydiver wanting to know more about flying camera with a tandem came to me asking if I'd show him some things. We started out with safety discussions such as being aware/clear of the deploying drogue, being under/over the tandem, cone of danger, etc. Suppose I forget to teach him about the trap door that a tandem might catch him with, and he falls into that burble, taking out himself, the TI, and the student. Do I or don't I bear some accountability as an "authority figure" asked to train? I submit that I do. I'm not responsible for the incident, but I should be held accountable for what I failed to teach, just as an AFF instructor is accountable for what he/she may fail to teach?
Glenn says:
QuoteThat is a HUGE assumption. What you mean to express is that they would not have died with the assistance of an instructor type to blame. But in each of these liscensed and qualified to self regulate skydiver's cases they were previously turned away by someone who explained why. They each knew they were traveling beyond what was recommended for their experience level. They were bound and determined.
Agreed, these guys knew they were stepping out of the boundaries, and were determined. In Kulpa's case, he drove all the way across Florida on New Year's Day to get to a DZ where he knew he could get coaching.
No one should be looking to place blame on the instructors involved in either of these fatalities. The "blame" has to lie with the deceased in both of these instances.
I don't agree it's a huge assumption that they wouldn't have died, however. They may have still gone in, but they wouldn't have gone in on THAT particular day, were there a fear of official repercussion from an officating body. At least that's my take on it. If I know I could lose my rating, license, ability to skydive because I take someone out on a wingsuit jump before they reach required or recommended numbers, then I'm not even going to think twice about saying "no." The risk/reward is just too high. Perhaps I simply feel a higher degree of responsibility to my students than others may feel. If in my non-skydiver training world I fail to teach a critical component of an exercise, no one will die, they simply may lose their job. But they'll look to me to bear some level of accountability for failing to fully inform. In other words, I might not be indictable, but I believe I'm guilty of dereliction of duty.
I find that reprehensible.
I don't understand how it could be stated that these instructors failed to teach a component of a proper first flight course. Failed to properly screen or willfully allow low experience skydivers to jump wingsuits I'll give you that.
Altitude awareness issues and forgetting legstraps has happened before to very experienced jumpers. I'm talking jumpers with thousands of jumps and many wingsuit jumps. Sadly both will probably happen again. Not because of jump numbers but because we are human, we forget, we loose awareness. We are not inertial guidance systems with built in telemetry. We are freaky styley humans and on any given day we might not be a 100%.
DZ operators work hard at screening people off canopys they shouldn't be on. Some work real hard at it. But all that effort doesn't keep someone from going someplace else to die or femur. Lets face it there are a lot of places we can go and nobody will be looking after you, just ourselves.
Altitude awareness issues and forgetting legstraps has happened before to very experienced jumpers. I'm talking jumpers with thousands of jumps and many wingsuit jumps. Sadly both will probably happen again. Not because of jump numbers but because we are human, we forget, we loose awareness. We are not inertial guidance systems with built in telemetry. We are freaky styley humans and on any given day we might not be a 100%.
DZ operators work hard at screening people off canopys they shouldn't be on. Some work real hard at it. But all that effort doesn't keep someone from going someplace else to die or femur. Lets face it there are a lot of places we can go and nobody will be looking after you, just ourselves.
back to the question at hand;
do we need a uspa wingsuit instructor rating? it's a fair question, and one that deserves debate. I vote hell no. such a thing will only increase cost, and restrict access. will a wingsuit license, with another tax, be required next?
imo, the proper regulating authority for such things is the dzo / s&ta.
do we need a uspa wingsuit instructor rating? it's a fair question, and one that deserves debate. I vote hell no. such a thing will only increase cost, and restrict access. will a wingsuit license, with another tax, be required next?
imo, the proper regulating authority for such things is the dzo / s&ta.
Quoteback to the question at hand;
do we need a uspa wingsuit instructor rating? it's a fair question, and one that deserves debate. I vote hell no. such a thing will only increase cost, and restrict access. will a wingsuit license, with another tax, be required next?
imo, the proper regulating authority for such things is the dzo / s&ta.
I will be glad to respond in greater length and details to my view on this subject, but first a quick question~
So a guy has his private pilots liscense and has about 40 hours, which is alot more time than a liscensed skydiver, and also much more complex than simply jumping out a plane with a parachute on. Now would it be ok to take that same private pilot, and tell him, hey, i know you want to fly jumpers, so why dont you come out to the Huey with me, and ill give you an hour breifing and set u loose to take the next load up?
This relationship is akin to the newer skydivers inability to comprehend all the forces involved, and profeciancy required in order to safely execute the plan... I know I wouldnt get on that huey~
Just a thought... be back later
Z Flock #11; Muff #1909; PFI #15, USPA Lifer
Commercial Multi-Inst. Airplane/Rotory
www.flyteskool.ws Aerial Photography
Commercial Multi-Inst. Airplane/Rotory
www.flyteskool.ws Aerial Photography
QuoteI think the main issue is
Are we COACHING people (like freefly and swooping) or are we INSTRUCTING people on something completely new.
I INSTRUCT first flight students and I coach people who have the rudimentary skill-set. That's the difference and that's what I will be telling the board of directors in July.
bigbearfng 18
Quoteback to the question at hand;
do we need a uspa wingsuit instructor rating? it's a fair question, and one that deserves debate. I vote hell no. such a thing will only increase cost, and restrict access. will a wingsuit license, with another tax, be required next?
imo, the proper regulating authority for such things is the dzo / s&ta.
And alls I can think if it were to pass.....
Next-arguments for-
Required Instructor ratings for
FF
Camera
Automauti
etc, etc..........
I know with a 100% certainty that Race Price and Dan Kulpa would not have died at jumps 118 and 110 had their instructors followed the currently established recommendations. Dan Kulpa would have turned 23 years old today.
Of the two proposals I've seen that were going to be submitted to USPA, neither of them allowed for "grandfathering" of anyone. The recommendations for becoming a USPA-rated wingsuit instructor are significantly more stringent than those currently required by PF or BM. There may be a third, fourth, or tenth proposal that may allow for grandfathering, I dunno. I think doing so would be a huge mistake and an immediate hit on the credibility of any USPA program.
I'm not in favor of more regulation either, but at least with USPA-designed/collated training, training would be consistent, instructors could be held accountable, and instructors would be tested or have documented evidence of their training for their renewals every year just as we are now.
Will a rating system make for a perfect world? Hell no. There are a lot of AFFI's, TI's, coaches, S/L, and IAD instructors out there that shouldn't likely be allowed to be within 10 feet of a student. But a rating system overseen by the USPA would at the least, force SOMEONE to test and observe a potential wingsuit instructor candidate. I would expect the USPA to initially appoint a few Instructor/Examiners that would be responsible for certifying a candidate to be a wingsuit instructor, but at some future point in time, the I/E rating would have to be earned, just as it has happened/is happening with TI ratings. I can easily see people like Chuck Blue, Ed Pawlowski, Scott Callantine, and others like them being tapped out to be Examiners given their time in sport, current ratings, and wingsuit skills.
That's a very valid point, and a scenario that can't be easily addressed, just as you can't prevent a 100 jump wonder from buying a Velo 90. Hopefully the GM program and S&TA oversight, plus common sense will help prevent this from occurring. If nothing else, hopefully a better educational focus on the part of the USPA will help reduce the number of "stooge instructors" that are out there.
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