tr027 0
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Skwrl 56
Quote"on Flock U saving us"
Actually, it was the Republican Party. I know that at least some of the members of the working group are members of the Republican Party, so it must be an elaborate plot to control wingsuiting that the Republicans are pushing.
That's how your logic works on that one.
Let's break it down:
DSE - Flock U
Scotty Burns - Flock U
Scott Callentine - Flock U
Jeff Donohue - not
Monkeyboy - Flock U
Nebelkopf - not
Peggs - not
Shorb - Flock U
Warnock - not
Weiss - not
But wait! Lurch is a Flock U instructor, and he's said publicly that he's not in support of changing the rules. Harry Parker's a Flock U instructor also, but I don't know his opinion - he's probably too busy jumping and taking kick-ass pictures...
Oh noez! Could it be that it just happened to be a bunch of friends, some in a wingsuit school and some not, who got together to make a proposal?
Naaaaaah... You don't need to worry about letting facts get in your way, right?
At this point, I think the thread is just populated by trolls. I'll let you guys breathe your own fumes from here on in.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography
Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork
Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork
DSE 5
I have never, ever suggested Dan's death was due to instructor failure. To suggest I ever have is a bullshit argument, and demonstrates the fucked-up cowardice of some in and of itself.
I don't blame anyone for Dan's death but Dan. Was he managed the way *I* would have managed his instruction? No. But that doesn't mean the instructor failed. The system failed. And it's that system that motivated myself and others trying to make a difference. Take your shots at me. I'm the guy approached by BOD members of the USPA nearly a year ago about the potential for this sort of program. I assembed a group of what I feel are some of the best wingsuiters in the USA. We fought a lot, we argued more than we needed to, but we all had one common goal; making wingsuiting better, safer, and to set a standard of excellence for an instructional standard. It improves on the excellent foundation set forth by Chuck Blue and others when the BMI program was begun, and reflects current wingsuiting needs that could not have been foreseen a decade ago.
"I began working on a WSI program back in July of 2008." I'd been considering it much earlier than that.
Do I feel Race Price' death contributed somewhat to my motivations? You bet it did.
I've been to boogies and wingsuit events all over the world in the last 18 months but I (and others) observed a lot of poor wingsuit safety behavior and awareness. At my own DZ, I can name three occasions where an "instructor" has taught someone in his living room and then sent the student (sans instructor) to jump on his own. No last moment review, no gear checks, no nothing. A BMI. But hey, there's no problem here at all, right?
I'm not the first to have begun thinking this way. There are at least two other groups that have put together proposals and a ratings suggestion. The difference is, they don't have the balls to stand up for what they've got to say.
Getting back to the origins instead of looking for needles in the bullshit, all I'm seeing is words masking fear and desperation for being acountable for instructor's actions, which at the end of the day, is really all the WSI rating is about. What else is it you're so afraid of?
Having a well-written national instructional standard is better than no standard at all. Most everyone can at least agree on this.
Pretty sad that when a group of people try to make a difference for the better they're tarred and feathered for it as opposed to a rational, intelligent discussion. Oops, it's the internet. What was I thinking?
Those nasty, cowardly, anonymous emails are greatly appreciated. And the guy that showed up at the hospital to "beat me up?" It takes BIG balls to threaten someone in critical condition in the ICU. Wow. The machismo in the wingsuit community is stunning.
I don't blame anyone for Dan's death but Dan. Was he managed the way *I* would have managed his instruction? No. But that doesn't mean the instructor failed. The system failed. And it's that system that motivated myself and others trying to make a difference. Take your shots at me. I'm the guy approached by BOD members of the USPA nearly a year ago about the potential for this sort of program. I assembed a group of what I feel are some of the best wingsuiters in the USA. We fought a lot, we argued more than we needed to, but we all had one common goal; making wingsuiting better, safer, and to set a standard of excellence for an instructional standard. It improves on the excellent foundation set forth by Chuck Blue and others when the BMI program was begun, and reflects current wingsuiting needs that could not have been foreseen a decade ago.
"I began working on a WSI program back in July of 2008." I'd been considering it much earlier than that.
Do I feel Race Price' death contributed somewhat to my motivations? You bet it did.
I've been to boogies and wingsuit events all over the world in the last 18 months but I (and others) observed a lot of poor wingsuit safety behavior and awareness. At my own DZ, I can name three occasions where an "instructor" has taught someone in his living room and then sent the student (sans instructor) to jump on his own. No last moment review, no gear checks, no nothing. A BMI. But hey, there's no problem here at all, right?
I'm not the first to have begun thinking this way. There are at least two other groups that have put together proposals and a ratings suggestion. The difference is, they don't have the balls to stand up for what they've got to say.
Getting back to the origins instead of looking for needles in the bullshit, all I'm seeing is words masking fear and desperation for being acountable for instructor's actions, which at the end of the day, is really all the WSI rating is about. What else is it you're so afraid of?
Having a well-written national instructional standard is better than no standard at all. Most everyone can at least agree on this.
Pretty sad that when a group of people try to make a difference for the better they're tarred and feathered for it as opposed to a rational, intelligent discussion. Oops, it's the internet. What was I thinking?
Those nasty, cowardly, anonymous emails are greatly appreciated. And the guy that showed up at the hospital to "beat me up?" It takes BIG balls to threaten someone in critical condition in the ICU. Wow. The machismo in the wingsuit community is stunning.
QuoteAnd the guy that showed up at the hospital to "beat me up?
Woah... are you ok? What happened? Was this physical altercation in response to the WSI proposal (as is implied)?
Hope nothing bad happened. Civil disagreement on this subject doesn't negate respect and friendship and though we may "not give a shit" about fatalities and bad instruction, I, for one, give a shit about your well-being.
Brian Drake
mccordia 74
Quote
Woah... are you ok? What happened? Was this physical altercation in response to the WSI proposal (as is implied)?
Dang...I already thought those comments on DSE on skydiver network a while ago where scary shit. Whats it this time? Is stalking the new underexposed subdicipline in wingsuit flying?
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?
Actually, it was the Republican Party.
You mean the Socialist Repubic Party. The government will protect us from our selves mentality.
QuoteQuoteAnd the guy that showed up at the hospital to "beat me up?
Woah... are you ok? What happened?
Did nurse Ratchet give the intruder an enema?
Now that last sentence is clearly token gibberish.
fasted3 0
What else is it you're so afraid of?
-New regulations.
-USPA Involvement within our discipline not seen in other, more accident prone disciplines.
-Licensed skydivers to be protected like AFF or Tandem students, by people that can't protect them.
-Jumpers with 500 jumps being required to use a USPA approved instructor.
-Resistance to change that is not seen as needed.
An honest disagreement that I find interesting, sometimes irritating, but not so much that I'd want to fight about it. Heck, this is just politics.
I do. Lighten up on the regulations and I'm all for it.
Spot, They just want to beat you up because they wouldn't dare if you were in good shape; the sooner you heal up the better. Thanks for your work on this, and enduring all the flack about it. I think it will come out of the fire better for it.
-New regulations.
-USPA Involvement within our discipline not seen in other, more accident prone disciplines.
-Licensed skydivers to be protected like AFF or Tandem students, by people that can't protect them.
-Jumpers with 500 jumps being required to use a USPA approved instructor.
-Resistance to change that is not seen as needed.
An honest disagreement that I find interesting, sometimes irritating, but not so much that I'd want to fight about it. Heck, this is just politics.
Quote
Having a well-written national instructional standard is better than no standard at all. Most everyone can at least agree on this.
I do. Lighten up on the regulations and I'm all for it.
Spot, They just want to beat you up because they wouldn't dare if you were in good shape; the sooner you heal up the better. Thanks for your work on this, and enduring all the flack about it. I think it will come out of the fire better for it.
But what do I know?
kallend 2,027
QuoteI have never, ever suggested Dan's death was due to instructor failure. To suggest I ever have is a bullshit argument, and demonstrates the fucked-up cowardice of some in and of itself..
"The Sebastian fatality would not have occurred had his instructor followed recommendations (USPA or manufacturer)." DSE, 6/26/09, this thread.
The two fatalities being discussed as rationale for this proposal were NOT instructor failures, they were trainee failures to follow the existing experience recommendations and good skydiving practice.
I suggest the experience issue is dealt with far more easily and effectively by requiring a "C" license before you may jump a wingsuit.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
I agree with this. I also feel that the manufacturers should take it upon themselves to require instructor candidates to have a USPA Coach (or equivalent) rating (which I believe anyone who teaches any form of skydiving at any level should have). And those instructors would only need to be there for jumpers in that 200 - 500 range. An actual USPA instructor rating seems excessive, since we're not dealing with first jump students.QuoteI suggest the experience issue is dealt with far more easily and effectively by requiring a "C" license before you may jump a wingsuit.
kallend 2,027
Quote
No answer regardless of how intelligent or unintelligent it may be, will not satisfy you. Fatalities and bad instruction tend to bother me; you don't give a shit.We differ in philosophy.
That is a clear personal attack, Mr. Moderator.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
I suggest the experience issue is dealt with far more easily and effectively by requiring a "C" license before you may jump a wingsuit.
Fawking brilliant yet elegant in its simplicity !!!
Why didn't I think of that. Guess it proves I'm no professor. Well done indeed. Let me know if anyone threatens you physically over this cuz they're gonna have to get through me first.
tr027 0
QuoteI suggest the experience issue is dealt with far more easily and effectively by requiring a "C" license before you may jump a wingsuit.
Yes!
As for the rest of the proposals and arguements in this thread I think the horse is thoroughly dead now (and not getting any more dead). The train and the surrounding railroad track has been blown up several times
so no need to worry about any of that nonsense anymore, and those that set the train in motion have enough tar/egg to follow them around and be remembered by."The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957
What?!? there is 12, er, uh, 11 slots left until this thread reaches 200 posts. Come on who is with me.......
Skwrl 56
Quoteand those that set the train in motion have enough tar/egg to follow them around and be remembered by
You keep acting like this is somehow an us versus them thing. This is why we can't have nice things...
Let's recap.
A proposal was made by a few groups in response to information that indicated that regulation was coming. One of the groups was willing to share their proposal with the public. In fact, those in our group all agreed that it was not just a really good idea - but the whole damn point. If I have a self-criticism or a "lessons learned" for our group, it's that we didn't present it to the wingsuiting community earlier.
Lots of people don't like the proposal. They wanted something else or nothing at all. Personally, I'm totally cool with that - I think I told that to a bunch of you in PMs already. Here's why:
We made a well thought out product. We made a damn good - and original - first flight manual (I got to see a copy of a Birdman manual earlier today, I stand by my earlier statement that ours is NOT a copy of the Birdman manual. They teach the same stuff, for sure, but we didn't copy theirs and it doesn't even really look like we did, as had been previously asserted.) The First Flight Manual summarizes many of the best practices that we were able to gather from the instructors in the working group and their friends. Did you even read the First Flight Manual? It very easily could serve as a useful resource for non-USPA regulated wingsuiters (be they Phoenix Fly, Birdman, or independents). If - as I suspect - USPA makes no changes, we still have offered up a great resource to all wingsuit instructors, not just in the US, but everywhere. That's a pretty neat thing, and I'm proud to have played a small role in it.
We got the community talking about the pros and cons of regulation - and I think we pointed out a few problems with some instructors and methods of instruction (that's not a comment about any school or rating, it's a comment about the stories of, for example, instructors who weren't there for first flights). I think we stopped talking about whether there are "problem instructors" and started talking about how to deal with them. That's progress.
We got people talking about the importance of standardization - to make sure that all new wingsuiters learn everything that they need to know to do it safely and to have fun doing it. Again, that's a good thing.
The very people who didn't like the proposal are now talking about making a C license a requirement. Stop and think about that! That itself is change. (I'm not going to get into how it's inconsistent with the whole "Freeeeeedoooooom" argument that some of them used, but if the general consensus is that USPA requires a C license, that's cool. It might reduce the 99 jump wonders who put on a wingsuit, who knows.) Others who didn't like our proposal have suggested that wingsuiting instructors should have a coach rating. In my opinion, that's a good idea, too. Hell, it was part of our proposal! (Oh, and by the way, I'm a professional instructor and I would benefit from a coaching course were I to want to become a wingsuit instructor. Different skills are taught and learned in different ways. Just because I'm a good law professor doesn't mean I could teach yoga well.)
If Stokes' letter and the various proposals hadn't come about, I wonder how much we'd be talking about these subjects. My bet is not at all. So I think the net result is a good thing, no matter how it shakes out.
Bottom line is that the proposal stirred dialogue. It was meant to be presented to the wingsuiting community for just that purpose (see, e.g., the memo... you did read the memo, right?). So whether it gets adopted or not, I view it as a success.
So if that's tarring and feathering, I dig it - you need feathers to be a good bird anyway, right?
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography
Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork
Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork
DSE 5
QuoteQuote
No answer regardless of how intelligent or unintelligent it may be, will not satisfy you. Fatalities and bad instruction tend to bother me; you don't give a shit.We differ in philosophy.
That is a clear personal attack, Mr. Moderator.
It's not at all a personal attack John. We have strongly differing philosophies. Yours is one of bending contexts to suit your purpose, mine is one of being willing to listen to reason.
It's kind of like the coaching thread where you consistently took the position that because you're a professional teacher, no one can teach you anything about teaching. I'm a multi-Grammy, Emmy, DuPont award winner but you'll find me believing I have something to learn from all my contemporaries regardless of their years of experience (or lack of it).
No amount of argument is going to convince you that you're not correct in a subjective debate. Ever. Patently clear; brought up in dozens of posts over the years on this website.
kallend 2,027
Quote
QuoteQuote
No answer regardless of how intelligent or unintelligent it may be, will not satisfy you. Fatalities and bad instruction tend to bother me; you don't give a shit.We differ in philosophy.
That is a clear personal attack, Mr. Moderator.
It's not at all a personal attack John.
Of course it was a PA. Telling me I "don't give a shit" IS absolutely a PA and you should know better.
Perhaps you should research the very large amount of work I've done and contributed on the topic of exit separation before telling me I "don;t give a shit".
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
I knew it!
Now you are glad this didn't end back when you pleaded with Jesus. Jesus doesn't listen to me either bub.
When it comes to who wrote what first or best when it comes to first flights get over yourselves, all of you. It all sounds all the same because its not that complicated and you can't say the same thing so drastically different that it would sound original. Its not rocket science its not even as complicated as bicycle maintainance.
When it comes to pointing your fingers at the other instructor camps about taking up low timers everybody is guilty, seems everybody has done it knowingly, unknowingly, on purpose or by accident. And what is worse the pointing of the fingers. Seems like everybody has been to the food fight at the Donner party.
Picking on the instructors for doing whacky things is nothing new even if its disguised as a proposal to benefit everyones Safety. Voodoo and myself were doing that way back years ago just for pleasure.
Now we find out that some of defining questions we had were not not being answered the way we would like because we were discussing / debating with a guy in the ICU, well duh, ICU he is probably very nicely sedated. Thats like trying to get some answers to the universe while hanging out with Chuck Blue at 3 oclock in the morning at a major boogie. And that is not a personal attack as I will always cherish those times but it never brought me closer to being rested for the first load.
Now you are glad this didn't end back when you pleaded with Jesus. Jesus doesn't listen to me either bub.
When it comes to who wrote what first or best when it comes to first flights get over yourselves, all of you. It all sounds all the same because its not that complicated and you can't say the same thing so drastically different that it would sound original. Its not rocket science its not even as complicated as bicycle maintainance.
When it comes to pointing your fingers at the other instructor camps about taking up low timers everybody is guilty, seems everybody has done it knowingly, unknowingly, on purpose or by accident. And what is worse the pointing of the fingers. Seems like everybody has been to the food fight at the Donner party.
Picking on the instructors for doing whacky things is nothing new even if its disguised as a proposal to benefit everyones Safety. Voodoo and myself were doing that way back years ago just for pleasure.
Now we find out that some of defining questions we had were not not being answered the way we would like because we were discussing / debating with a guy in the ICU, well duh, ICU he is probably very nicely sedated. Thats like trying to get some answers to the universe while hanging out with Chuck Blue at 3 oclock in the morning at a major boogie. And that is not a personal attack as I will always cherish those times but it never brought me closer to being rested for the first load.
QuoteJust a thought; maybe the proposal in the hands of the USPA for consideration needs wider distribution so those interested can consider and comment. Or maybe even attend the Board of Directors meeting to advocate.
Now there is a thought....
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
Skwrl 56
QuoteI knew it!
Now you are glad this didn't end back when you pleaded with Jesus. Jesus doesn't listen to me either bub.
Well, I also said that I'm an atheist, so I'm going with something along the line of "the fucker doesn't like me."
QuoteWhen it comes to who wrote what first or best when it comes to first flights get over yourselves, all of you. It all sounds all the same because its not that complicated and you can't say the same thing so drastically different that it would sound original. Its not rocket science its not even as complicated as bicycle maintainance.
Ding, ding, we have a winner.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography
Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork
Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork
DSE 5
Quote
Perhaps you should research the very large amount of work I've done and contributed on the topic of exit separation before telling me I "don;t give a shit".
I do believe I've personally written (and thanked you for your research, and even thanked you for your powerpoint.
Failing that, thank you (once again).
pms07 3
QuoteQuoteJust a thought; maybe the proposal in the hands of the USPA for consideration needs wider distribution so those interested can consider and comment. Or maybe even attend the Board of Directors meeting to advocate.
Now there is a thought....
Thanks for adding to the discussion JP. At this point, I'm not real optimistic about any forward progress on wingsuit issues by the USPA, at least right now. The late public viewing of the WSI proposal(s), the lack of debate on the need for such a proposal or appropriateness of USPA involvement, the apparent lack of community consensus, the very public pissing contest on this forum, the trend toward personal attacks vice substantive discussion, only serve to cloud the issues and important discussion. With that, I find it difficult to believe USPA can act at the upcomng BoD meeting. I could be wrong however. Anyway, I believe USPA will (and should) make changes to current wingsuit policy. How that turns out is largely up to us. Something to consider...
kallend 2,027
QuoteQuoteQuoteJust a thought; maybe the proposal in the hands of the USPA for consideration needs wider distribution so those interested can consider and comment. Or maybe even attend the Board of Directors meeting to advocate.
Now there is a thought....
Thanks for adding to the discussion JP. At this point, I'm not real optimistic about any forward progress on wingsuit issues by the USPA, at least right now. The late public viewing of the WSI proposal(s), the lack of debate on the need for such a proposal or appropriateness of USPA involvement, the apparent lack of community consensus, the very public pissing contest on this forum, the trend toward personal attacks vice substantive discussion, only serve to cloud the issues and important discussion. With that, I find it difficult to believe USPA can act at the upcomng BoD meeting. I could be wrong however. Anyway, I believe USPA will (and should) make changes to current wingsuit policy. How that turns out is largely up to us. Something to consider...
Step 1. ACCURATELY identify IF there is a problem that needs to be addressed, and if so WHAT EXACTLY IS IT.
Step 2. Collect CONVINCING evidence to support the assertion that you have identified the problem correctly.
Step 3. Identify a course (or courses) of action that addresses the ACTUAL problem and not an imagined one.
Step 4. Show convincingly that your solution IS the correct one.
Step 5. If more than one effective course of action is identified, select the one that is least intrusive on the skydiving community.
Step 6. Refrain from insulting those who disagree with you - they may just possibly be right.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Quote
Step 6. Refrain from insulting those who disagree with you - they may just possibly berightreal sensitive and delicate, like a flower... .
fixed it
Damn, got him on that one. That kind of skill in playing both sides is usually well demonstrated in government politics. However it would also apply to the politics of selling the BOD and WS community on Flock U saving us from a 'bad instructor' epidemic.
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