Article on landing wingsuit w/o parachute

[mccordia 74]

Add some poles, rigid surfaces etc
Most people end up 'inventing' a hangglider when they talk about landing a wingsuit.

JC
FlyLikeBrick
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[verticalflyer 11]

This is all well and good but as soon as we start introducing spars and extra cables and exteneded wings etc we reinvent the hangglider. Whilst landing is a nice aspiration I would really like to be able to take off ;) The reality is we have a niche between aircraft and hanglider and non wingsuited freefaller. If you chose a big air bag as in certain ideas, or a ski slope you could land the wingsuit today. However what does that actually achieev if not repeatable safely at low cost. Its a nice stunt, I expect the "stunt" will officially be done at some point. But I dont think we will be landing safely repeatedly for all any time soon. Would love to be wrong. :)

Dont just talk about it, Do it!

[mccordia 74]

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Whilst landing is a nice aspiration I would really like to be able to take off

Isnt any basejumper standing on the edge of a cliff doing just that?

JC
FlyLikeBrick
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[Trae 1]

in reply to "This is all well and good but as soon as we start introducing spars and extra cables and exteneded wings etc we reinvent the hangglider. Whilst landing is a nice aspiration I would really like to be able to take off ;) The reality is we have a niche between aircraft and hanglider and non wingsuited freefaller. If you chose a big air bag as in certain ideas, or a ski slope you could land the wingsuit today. However what does that actually achieev if not repeatable safely at low cost. Its a nice stunt, I expect the "stunt" will officially be done at some point. But I dont think we will be landing safely repeatedly for all any time soon. Would love to be wrong. :) "
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For me its not about being right or wrong.
I also see no need to reinvent the hang-glider.
The idea of rigid extensions and contraptions also leaves me cold.

Flexibility is the word I prefer here. Also retractability , extendability I like those words too.

Some of the newer plastics have properties much more applicable to aerofoils than siliconised fabric. These materials keep their shape much better while still providing sufficient flex to allow the range of movement required by wingsuiters.
Admittedly such a wingsuit may be heavier but if the shape is more consistent then the wing efficiencies will be much higher.
By skinning the wings with a material that will maintain a consistent surface (unlike any fabric wingsuit on the market ), smoother and more powerful flight characteristics will result.

Such material would also provide such possibilities as variable camber as well as such things as swing wings. It would also provide a surface fro the use of slats and flaps .

The future of wingsuits is much bigger than simple fabric flappers. Keeping an open mind allows further creativity and design innovation to enhance our sport not restrict it.

[mccordia 74]

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The future of wingsuits is much bigger than simple fabric flappers.

I dont know how many recent wingsuit designs you've flown, but in the whole range from Tony or PF, the wings are rigid like concrete...fabric flappers is not really a term of this day and age when it comes to naming modern-day wingsuit design..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[jeb 0]

My goal is not to land a wing-suit. Most people misunderstand the project. My project is about jumping from high altitude and landing at very high speed without the aid of a parachute. You were right earlier in the posting. The wing-suit is only a very small part of a much bigger puzzle.

I have zero desire to land a suit on flat ground. Not interesting to me and I do believe it's impossible, unless you reinvent a hang glider, which is exactly what you will be doing if you go ridged wings. Now, I have thought lots of things were impossible and have been proved wrong over and over again. So maybe in the future I may be proved wrong again.

I am hoping that once we build the runway and land it with wing-suits we will then be able to get the super trackers to land too. Think ski jumping without the skis and without the mountains :) Now that is something interesting...

[DSE 5]

Quote

My goal is not to land a wing-suit. Most people misunderstand the project. My project is about jumping from high altitude and landing at very high speed without the aid of a parachute. You were right earlier in the posting. The wing-suit is only a very small part of a much bigger puzzle.

I have zero desire to land a suit on flat ground. Not interesting to me and I do believe it's impossible, unless you reinvent a hang glider, which is exactly what you will be doing if you go ridged wings. Now, I have thought lots of things were impossible and have been proved wrong over and over again. So maybe in the future I may be proved wrong again.

I am hoping that once we build the runway and land it with wing-suits we will then be able to get the super trackers to land too. Think ski jumping without the skis and without the mountains :) Now that is something interesting...

Jeb,
it doesn't matter if you're successful, doesn't matter if it's seemingly impossible, and doesn't matter if no one else "gets it."
You're chasing your dream, pushing the envelope, attempting to change up some aspect of the game.
As long as no one else is at risk without foreknowledge, I submit it's a worthwhile endeavor.
Take risks, have fun, succeed enough to do it again.

[jimmytavino 16]

.... then.. it's mostly about flying a trajectory which is as close to parallel with the landing area, as possible????

and to Find that landing area, ( or else Create it) ...on terra firma, Someplace where the terrain already closely matches the flightpath, and where the approaches, the run out, the lighting and the prevailing winds can be monitored and kept under some degree of "control".
What is the expected airspeed, say in MPH,, at the point of actually starting to alight on the ground??..
I figure, it'll be zero MPH, at the conclusion...

Will the approach be belly down, or has consideration been given to a half barrell roll and a backflying position as the person and the ground coincide??? That could limit impact on the face, the ribcage and the hips. The person could then, utilize the packed canopy, as a padding,,,as long as the anticipated possibility of Opening the parachute doesn't materialize and a true landing, becomes the reality of things...(hell,, make the container AND the canopy,,, out of kevlar!!!!) and use a good solid helmet..
i dunno, just brainstorming....

be safe, have fun.

cordially,
jimmytavino

A 3914
POPS 3935
USPA # 9452

[mccordia 74]

And a cleanup lady on the side for those who just dont make it...

Putting it on top of a cliff would mean you have 'outs' in case the approach is a few meters off..
Though definately a cool project, its miles away from what most envisioned through all the talking in the media about 'landing a wingsuit', which is why the idea receives so much skeptisism..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
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[The111 1]

Quote

My goal is not to land a wing-suit. Most people misunderstand the project. My project is about jumping from high altitude and landing at very high speed without the aid of a parachute. You were right earlier in the posting. The wing-suit is only a very small part of a much bigger puzzle.

I have zero desire to land a suit on flat ground. Not interesting to me and I do believe it's impossible, unless you reinvent a hang glider, which is exactly what you will be doing if you go ridged wings. Now, I have thought lots of things were impossible and have been proved wrong over and over again. So maybe in the future I may be proved wrong again.

I am hoping that once we build the runway and land it with wing-suits we will then be able to get the super trackers to land too. Think ski jumping without the skis and without the mountains :) Now that is something interesting...

I can live with that.
And I wish you success!

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[mccordia 74]

And similar to what Matt says...definately hope you manage. Sounds like an impressive sight to see.

It even put some of my 3D animated stuff on TV (they used one of my 3D models to illustrate the setup)

JC
FlyLikeBrick
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[Trae 1]

in reply to "I dont know how many recent wingsuit designs you've flown, but in the whole range from Tony or PF, the wings are rigid like concrete...fabric flappers is not really a term of this day and age when it comes to naming modern-day wingsuit design.. "

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I've been flying my V2 but not as much as I'd like to . The pressurisation is no where near like concrete....more like marshmellow .

In your estimation is the most recent suits pressurisation strong enough to allow the arm wings to extend say a foot each side of the body ?

Watching jets wings increase their wingarea for landings and takeoff has filled me full of ideas for something similar happening on a wingsuit.

It would be a good thing if wingsuit pressurisation could power such lift enhancers. Its my feeling such gadgets will need a bit of manual help to extend and retain their shape.

..perhaps then it'll be wingsuit landings on flat ground at moderate speeds

[mccordia 74]

The V2 got upgraded to different style ram-air inlets for the armwings, that other manufacturers now also have.

Id say pressurization in all wingsuit models coming out the last year or so has been more than rock solid..
How far you could extend wings outward, I dont know....but how about stopping the theory, and making the suit you propose

JC
FlyLikeBrick
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[Trae 1]

in reply to "Id say pressurization in all wingsuit models coming out the last year or so has been more than rock solid..
How far you could extend wings outward, I dont know....but how about stopping the theory, and making the suit you propose "

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Got some development $$$$$$ ?

I'm working on it ....slowly. Every wingsuit pilot I run my ideas by react against an imagined rigidity to the design whereas my design basis is flexibility .

Design is always compromise . Theorising is an important part of any considered design.

This idea is gelling slowly but surely and when it does the jets get put on.

Ps has Ferrari been having wingsuit dreams too?

[Trae 1]

Just some more theorisings about landing a wingsuit on flat ground.

Prediction. When a wingsuit can easily climb after a flare then a controllable, survivable landing will be possible and some brave soul will no doubt make an attempt.

Instead of using the flare’s energy to climb, a well timed gradual flare could be used to slow down as well as maintain level flight...just like a well executed H.P.canopy landing.

A perfect wingsuit landing would perhaps end with the wingsuiter still skidding along on their (ski-shod) feet in an upright position.
A less than perfect landing would perhaps result in skidding along on torso skids.
A bad landing would obviously end in serious injury or death.

The first modern wingsuits could not achieve horizontal flight.
After about a decades development some currently available wingsuits can fly horizontally for a short time after a dive /swoop/ flare .
I believe it can reasonably be extrapolated that wingsuit performance levels will continue to improve and eventually achieve the required performance levels to land on horizontal ground.

Some Landing Requirements.

Wingsuit performance.
: Ability to dive swoop flare and then fly horizontally for some distance.
: Ability to fly back up after a flare
: Ability to absorb landing forces eg via sprung skids/ski's.
: safety back -ups , eg face-plate, chest guards limb protection, steel undies)
in case of rough landing.

Favourable landing conditions.
: cool dense non- turbulent low altitude air.
: a strong headwind.
: large open area landing strip ; wet grass, water

Pilot preparation.
: Base jumping and proximity flying experience would be very helpful to get the appropriate mindset to ensure this is not just death defying stunt BS.
: there will be a 'go/no go' decision to be made at a safe parachute deployment height
: radio confirmation from the ground that good conditions exist; eg wind speed still high.
: use of modern technology to increase pilot confidence eg HUD airspeed altitude vertical descent readouts
: LOTS of practice flaring

Of course some skinny Norwegian will probably land without any of the above

There was a time parachutes only descended.
Then they were designed with the ability to flare, slowing down vertical landing speeds.
Now modern parachutes can easily climb after a flare at low altitudes turning their high forward speeds into powerful flared landings with little or no vertical speed.

Prediction : One day wingsuits will do the same . and the next day ?

[mccordia 74]

Flaring wingsuits down to zero, and even brief climbs have already been done/logged on GPS (Visa, sans jetboots for one). The forward speed during those flares is incredibly high.
Trying to break any forward speed by a more upright position, results in a stall (not decelerating that much).
Canopies have the advantage of an upright body position, feet/body freely moving as landing gear, and even on small canopies a massive amount of wingsurface compared to the largest of wingsuits.

For sure its within the realm of survivable by accident (as some close to terminal landings with wingsuit/barely canopy have shown).
But several changes in angle/landing on feet are severly unrealistic in terms of actual flight dynamics.
The reason most 'close to terminal' accidents where survivable was related to the body orientation being changed from head/chest first to feet first on impact. A big change not possible in wingsuit flight dynamics during a controlled flare without the aid of a pilotchute or other drag inducing device (which than raises the question...where is the limit in 'external aids' to still concider something a wingsuit landing).

For most people the only difference between a normal skydiver and a wingsuit flyer landing without a parachute is the one of a big red round bloodstain vs a long streak/smear.
Im sure we'll get there someday. But a lot of theory here isnt really a realistic view on progres when looking at current performance and technology.

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[ifell 0]

Lately I have been studying flying squirrels, and what I have noticed is the speed. There is no forward speed! So amazing to see them fly, they can even carve and do S turns and they flare to a vertical position when they hit the brakes. A friend filmed 2 of them going "over/under" each other...

anyway the main problem I see with humans is the weight, I don't want to say never but I don't see us getting enough surface to have us fly slow enough.

That being said I was thinking what if we had deeper wings? Hard to put into words so bare with me here...
What if we had wings that inflated like a bubble gum or half a bubble to really trap the air? So instead of having a "straight" piece of fabric between each limb it would be a deeper bubble. Would be harder to fly of course but to me this seems like it would slow the flight down to survivable landing... or does this just sound stupid?

[mccordia 74]

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Lately I have been studying flying squirrels, and what I have noticed is the speed.

May have to do with the fact they weigh about 200 grams, instead of the 90 kg exit weight we have

JC
FlyLikeBrick
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[ifell 0]

Well yeah that was the point of the post

[Trae 1]

in reply to " But a lot of theory here isnt really a realistic view on progres when looking at current performance and technology. "
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but this is a discussion forum so theorising seems natural here.

Plus we get to extract ideas like the bubble idea. This might at first seem odd but I think it has merit as it attempts to solve the decelleration issue.

Getting the legs in the correct position to support a landing is a design problem.

Birds seem to do it right at the last moment as they present their wings for maximum deceleration.
They have the advantage of no leg wing to stop their legs going forward.

A solution to any landing problems exists . We just have to find it.

[ifell 0]

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A solution to any landing problems exists . We just have to find it.

Yeah but the problem is we have to start from "our bodies were never meant to fly but..."

so that is a big problem, the only way I see this happening is through slow flight but then we need to have someone very light AND very strong to hold those big wings for a REALLY long time... from a plane anyway

The squirrel has no leg wing btw

[mchamp 1]

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Quote

Lately I have been studying flying squirrels, and what I have noticed is the speed.

May have to do with the fact they weigh about 200 grams, instead of the 90 kg exit weight we have

I was thinking more like 55kg Yay for lightweights!

For info regarding lift ticket prices all around the world check out
http://www.jumpticketprices.com/dropzones.asp

[Trae 1]

in reply to "..,the only way I see this happening is through slow flight but then we need to have someone very light AND very strong to hold those big wings.."
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That's where some thoughtful design comes in .
Your bubble idea led me to imagine a wingsuit without a leg wing ( as currently manifested).

Imagine if the arm-wings combine and extend down over the back and legs(and further?).
If this wing had sufficient pressurrisation perhaps it could maintain its shape without the legs or arms having to do all the work of holding it open.
Perhaps the rear section could be partly controlled by movement of the hip/upper thigh .

Then the legs/skids could drop down more easily to slide along during a ( slowed down ) landing .

[piisfish 140]

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Getting the legs in the correct position to support a landing is a design problem.

Birds seem to do it right at the last moment as they present their wings for maximum deceleration.
They have the advantage of no leg wing to stop their legs going forward.

A solution to any landing problems exists . We just have to find it.

just need the perfect timing for the Viagra to kick in

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[lonedfx 0]

>This is all well and good but as soon as we start
>introducing spars and extra cables and exteneded
>wings etc we reinvent the hangglider.

This is what I think people are forgetting with the whole subject of "landing with a wingsuit".

When we talk about adding a kevlar pads, skis, ramps, inflating cushions, and so on, what we REALLY are talking about is some kind of a device that when added to a wingsuit will let it land safely.

We already have invented that device a while ago, and it works really well, it's called a parachute rig.

Look at it this way: either adding those types of devices no longer makes it a wingsuit landing and it's sortof pointless, or it still does and it's being done every single day already.