It's a new day, it's a new dawn - WS records

[Zeemax 0]

Ok, so if you go through the entirety of the other thread, you're going to get lost, and no doubt have your opinion swayed one way or the other.

Lets start this new thread to discuss how we now move forward.

We have a clean slate. We can start from fresh using the knowledge that we have, and build on it to create something that the whole community is proud of.

Let's not try to rush something, but instead actually work on getting a solution that is respected not only by the people who wingsuit, but also the wider skydiving community.

Currently there are discussions to hold the first session at F&D.

Who should attend, and where should we take it from there?

Please only use this thread for constructive discussion of how we should progress a record judging based system.

Mods, please delete any posts that drift off topic, or are not helpful.


Macca

Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies

[DSE 5]

As mentioned previously, we'll be holding a wingsuit symposium at FnD.
Where it will be located during the FnD event is still being determined. I'd like to hold it in the new hangar, assuming everyone is gold with that. The location may not be available to us, and may require we move off-site to a nearby hotel.

It will be on Friday night so that it doesn't interfere with any other activities.
Andreea/Supergirl and I are working together on equipment and provider so that people not physically at FnD can attend via virtual meeting. We likely will not offer audio pass for those outside. In other words, you'll be able to see and hear the meeting at home, but we won't be playing your home audio back, except in moderated moments.
There will likely be a very moderate fee for the off-site service that those taking part in the off-site service will need to pay. It could go as high as $15.00. The bandwidth for multiple video streams into a meeting isn't small.

We'll also have pizza and beer, the first round provided by VASST.

A projector will be provided for powerpoints or other presentations.

Hopefully this symposium will be the real start of the process to determine how we want wingsuiting to be judged and recorded in the history of skydiving.

March 19, 2010. ZFlock. Put it on your calendar.

[mccordia 74]

Depending on US border security, there will be Stroopwafels as well..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[kallend 2,106]

Quote

As mentioned previously, we'll be holding a wingsuit symposium at FnD.
Where it will be located during the FnD event is still being determined. I'd like to hold it in the new hangar, assuming everyone is gold with that. The location may not be available to us, and may require we move off-site to a nearby hotel.

It will be on Friday night so that it doesn't interfere with any other activities.
Andreea/Supergirl and I are working together on equipment and provider so that people not physically at FnD can attend via virtual meeting. We likely will not offer audio pass for those outside. In other words, you'll be able to see and hear the meeting at home, but we won't be playing your home audio back, except in moderated moments.
There will likely be a very moderate fee for the off-site service that those taking part in the off-site service will need to pay. It could go as high as $15.00. The bandwidth for multiple video streams into a meeting isn't small.

We'll also have pizza and beer, the first round provided by VASST.

A projector will be provided for powerpoints or other presentations.

Hopefully this symposium will be the real start of the process to determine how we want wingsuiting to be judged and recorded in the history of skydiving.

March 19, 2010. ZFlock. Put it on your calendar.

Any special equipment or software needed for remote attendees?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[monkycndo 0]

Quote

Depending on US border security, there will be Stroopwafels as well..

OK, I just bought a airline ticket so I can get some stroopwafel. Save some for me.

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[SuperGirl 0]

Quote

OK, I just bought a airline ticket so I can get some stroopwafel. Save some for me.

watch out, I might get there early and eat all the stroopwafels before anyone else gets there

[DSE 5]

No special equipment other than a webcam and/or chat client.
If we use one of the proprietary tools we're looking at, you'll need to download a small file and install it for their chat client, but it's no big thing at all. You'll know well in advance of what tools we'll choose to use, along with instructions of how to best achieve it.

[Zeemax 0]

Due to very limited funds I will not not be able to attend, but as I'm sure you're aware, would like to be a part of this.

If the external people who also cannot make it to the US aren't able to also participate, via audio, is there some other way of having our thoughts aired?

Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies

[Costyn 1]

Quote

Due to very limited funds I will not not be able to attend, but as I'm sure you're aware, would like to be a part of this.

If the external people who also cannot make it to the US aren't able to also participate, via audio, is there some other way of having our thoughts aired?

I imagine DSE is thinking of something along the lines of twitter or similar, where you can send a short question which will be read by someone who is at the symposium from their laptop and then answered by whoever is the speaker at that moment.

Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News

[DSE 5]

Actually something more like GoToMeeting.com or oovoo.com, with bidirectional video and chat. Think Skype Video with multiple chats in one window.

Failing folks wanting to spend a few $$ to attend virtually, then we'll just use MSN meeting as it's free, offers real-time video out, and not terribly slow.

[sdctlc 0]

Not sure yet if I can be there in person but will do a gotomeeting or something like that for sure if I cant be there..

Scott

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[pms07 3]

Stroopwaffels? I'm having flashbacks of skydiving and good times at Teuge already. I was still debating attending F&D but the stroopwaffels ended that, I'll be there.

Pat

[notsane 0]

Just some random thoughts ...

I wonder whether it's even possible to judge a 3D no-contact formation.

To start with, you have to set the minimum requirements for judging ... something like "all participants must be in their assigned 3D locations for 5 seconds"

Obviously the grid system doesn't impose either the 3rd dimension or the time requirements. That makes the current grid judging requirement to be "all participants must be in their assigned 2D locations for 1/125th second". For the 2D grid to work (overlaying a perfect grid on top of a photo), it's implied that you can eliminate the spherical aberration of the lens, offset of the cameraman from formation center and skew from vertical. I'm not sure even this is possible. Extending to the 3rd dimension and a time requirement would make things even tougher.

Docked formations only require verification of the grips via video for 5 seconds (although I question whether video resolution is really able to see all those grips in a huge formation). That obviates the 3D requirement and make the judging pretty straightforward.

Just thinking ...

[DSE 5]

Quote

Just thinking ...

Keep thinkin. Drink Starbucks.
It's good food for thought, and while I do think it's possible to judge non-gripped formations, I think that it's a different category. Docks are obvious, a no-brainer. And of course, should be events/records/noteworthy.

At the same time, if we can fly a tightly formed up 100 way (if we can find 100 experienced wingsuiters to fly at one place) then that too, is noteworthy, and should probably be considered a record, just as the 73 way stands as the largest number of wingsuiters in a formation at once (thanks for that, Stoney).
Unfortunately, the grid precludes the ability to fly tight, amongst other things.

One aspect of this hinted at up-thread;
We might have multiple categories, too. Advanced, Intermediate, docked, non-docked... Eventually we'll have to have something other than the nonsense we're currently experiencing.

[mccordia 74]

A lot of things (also for 2D formations) like lens-deformation, alternate angles and a moving picture (video etc.) IS stuff that can be included (especially software-wise) in a debriefing method. But seeing as we still havent fully mastered the basics yet.

I think its important to keep things clear, to not try and solve the issues with the caravan, when we havent even sorted out the basic frame of our car..

With regards to time. Id be more tempted to actually switch it around, and use FS/FF rules in terms of time for docked formations, and demand that non-gripped formations get a flying time of at least 2 to maybe even 5 seconds of 'slot perfect flying' in.

But a valid point raised as well. Regardless, video resolution will be a limit (especially if non-gripped bigways will be judged on a time-basis).
The current 'record spacing' is one of the big 'resolution killers'.
The detail really doubles, with every half a distance everyone flies closer.

A digital measuring tape, to calculate real distances is one of the first things we'll try and impliment as well..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[kallend 2,106]

Quote

Just some random thoughts ...

I wonder whether it's even possible to judge a 3D no-contact formation.

To start with, you have to set the minimum requirements for judging ... something like "all participants must be in their assigned 3D locations for 5 seconds"

Obviously the grid system doesn't impose either the 3rd dimension or the time requirements. That makes the current grid judging requirement to be "all participants must be in their assigned 2D locations for 1/125th second". For the 2D grid to work (overlaying a perfect grid on top of a photo), it's implied that you can eliminate the spherical aberration of the lens, offset of the cameraman from formation center and skew from vertical. I'm not sure even this is possible. Extending to the 3rd dimension and a time requirement would make things even tougher.

Docked formations only require verification of the grips via video for 5 seconds (although I question whether video resolution is really able to see all those grips in a huge formation). That obviates the 3D requirement and make the judging pretty straightforward.

Just thinking ...

3-D: Use the same tomography techniques used in CAT scans. The math is well established. Would require discipline on the part of the videographers.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[notsane 0]

I've been thinking more about docked formations. Unless we want to be locked into lines and stairsteps, the minimum docked formation should be a diamond.

But, as Matt Hoover has shown (with an overhead pic of me in a Raptor), that can't be done ... (the following is mine) .. "with existing wingsuits".

A wingsuit can take many forms, and the swept-back arm wing we have now offers more performance while it restricts arm movement. A flocking, docking wingsuit design might offer lower performance while it has less arm and leg restriction. A smaller leg wing might keep it from getting bumped around too.

A suit like the Tony Suit "Intro" would offer less restriction. There was a suit a few years back that had arm wings that ended at the elbows (I can't remember the name). These suits might allow more flexibility for docked wingsuit flight ... like enabling a wingsuit diamond.

I'm sayin' that our twitchy, high performance suits with arm grippers taking up our hands might not be the best solution if we actually want to build docked formations.

[SuperGirl 0]

Quote

A suit like the Tony Suit "Intro" would offer less restriction. There was a suit a few years back that had arm wings that ended at the elbows (I can't remember the name).

u talkin about the s-fly access?

[notsane 0]

The S-Fly Access! That's the one! Imagine a docked diamond in those.

I was thinking about how freefall suits changed during the '80's. Most people here are too young to remember the wing-wars that culminated in something called balloon suits. Folks finally realized that, while the suits did what they were meant to do, fall slowly, they were terrible for doing freefall formations. Small suits and weight belts were unheard of back then.

I'm not saying that we should ditch the big wing suits ... they're too much fun to fly around clouds. But maybe we should also look at suits that allow us to build docked formations.

[kallend 2,106]

Quote

I've been thinking more about docked formations. Unless we want to be locked into lines and stairsteps, the minimum docked formation should be a diamond.

But, as Matt Hoover has shown (with an overhead pic of me in a Raptor), that can't be done ... (the following is mine) .. "with existing wingsuits".

A wingsuit can take many forms, and the swept-back arm wing we have now offers more performance while it restricts arm movement. A flocking, docking wingsuit design might offer lower performance while it has less arm and leg restriction. A smaller leg wing might keep it from getting bumped around too.

A suit like the Tony Suit "Intro" would offer less restriction. There was a suit a few years back that had arm wings that ended at the elbows (I can't remember the name). These suits might allow more flexibility for docked wingsuit flight ... like enabling a wingsuit diamond.

I'm sayin' that our twitchy, high performance suits with arm grippers taking up our hands might not be the best solution if we actually want to build docked formations.

We could just eliminate the wings altogether, then we could build even bigger docked formations - like a 400 way.

Requiring docks for flying (as opposed to falling) is just inside the box thinking that will send the discipline backwards..

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mccordia 74]

Thinking we should downgrade our expectations, and only work on/with what we know is inside the box thinking..

Docked formations are a seperate dicipline, requiring more skill and practice than we currently have. But for sure not one to discount.
Is a record worth less when the number is only 8 or 9, as opposed to 68, 100 or 400?

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[JohanW 0]

Well, actually .. yes.

But the discipline is younger.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[Birdman_Mike 0]

Quote

Is a record worth less when the number is only 8 or 9, as opposed to 68, 100 or 400?

An eight or nine way docked wingsuit formation is very impressive

Purple Mike

[mccordia 74]

Would you regard a formation of 25, flown with a 40 cm spacing between all flyers, at a 2.0 glide and 42 mph fallrate, one thats of higher quality (skillwise) than current standards?

But how would we rate that?

Just having a way to validate how well a formation is flown (per any method) and attaching a score/deviation in % to that one, will do so much for future records.
Not even ment to outdo or upstage current records. But just having a good measuring guide/standard for comparison.

Next week we will start implementing Kallends method into the software, so its quick and easy to play with.
And we want to include a few more features, and will than slowly start working towards a first (pubicly available, free) version..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[kallend 2,106]

Quote

Thinking we should downgrade our expectations, and only work on/with what we know is inside the box thinking..

Docked formations are a seperate dicipline, requiring more skill and practice than we currently have. But for sure not one to discount.

If flying a docked formation involves downsizing wings, where does it stop?

I have flown in a docked formation of over 200, WITH NO WINGS AT ALL.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.