Wingsuit Big Ways & LOS

[base851 0]

A couple of noobish questions about wingsuit RW & line-of-sight issues in light of the recent freefall collision incident.

I take it the issue unique to wingsuiters is that we can't form up in a circle, unlike head-down & RW formations. Thus, spreading out is more of a problem because we effectively only have half (or less) of the sky to work with as other disciplines.

Additionally, the nature of how we fly is such that our best body position requires our head to be facing in a direction other than the formation. Relying substantially on eye glances and peripheral vision would make it exceptionally more difficult to keep track of everyone... especially when they're travelling at the tremendous speeds that we can.

Our big blind spot is above and behind. This may sound ridiculous initially, but has anyone looked into devising some form of rear-view mirror system... a la road bikers or something similar? I would think if we had some sort of assistance in seeing our blind spot, we'd be more able to figuratively "keep our head on a swivel" as other big way disciplines do.

[mccordia 74]

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I take it the issue unique to wingsuiters is that we can't form up in a circle, unlike head-down & RW formations. Thus, spreading out is more of a problem because we effectively only have half (or less) of the sky to work with as other disciplines.

We also fly at double to more the forward speed at seperation...using the same 1500ft seperatin on a small wingsuit jump, we get 20 to 40 second seperations, with distances of up t half a mile.

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Our big blind spot is above and behind.

We have a blind spot, but unless (in FS) you do backflying or 360 on the spot, you pretty much have the same blind spot.

We do have a lot of additional traffic issues, and cant fly in opposing directions like FS.
It is a more difficult game, and looking at the recent accident, I can see a lot of people rearing up on their hind legs, and pointing out dangers.

But looking at the last two or so years, we've seem similar accidents happen in FS bigways (at breakoff), freefly jumps (even on simple 2 ways) and sadly even on CREW jumps (deploying with a 180, flying into another person). Even with proper organizing and planning, sometimes things happen...

I think the key to keeping WS formations safe is planning, and knowing how to fly your body, and how to approach a formation.
Not in dentist mirrors and other contraptions that take a lot of attention away from the people you are in the sky with.

I know GPS navigation in cars is a great addition, but it hasnt made driving a whole lot safer either....

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[tr027 0]

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Additionally, the nature of how we fly is such that our best body position requires our head to be facing in a direction other than the formation. Relying substantially on eye glances and peripheral vision would make it exceptionally more difficult to keep track of everyone... especially when they're travelling at the tremendous speeds that we can.

I don't know about anyone else, but the only time I'm not closely monitoring the cone-shaped area encompassing my glidepath and anything near it is when I'm holding position in a slot. It takes 2 to have a collision, so a collision requires 1 or both parties to not be looking where they are going. Look at any flying animal that forms large synchronized groups and you'll see they have reaction times much quicker (4x, 6x or 8x human). Being aware of this disadvantage we have coupled with the outcomes of meatmissile collision should motivate the WS flyer to keep a high level of alertness/awareness for shorter reaction time.

"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

[lurch 0]

I wouldn't call it ridiculous, just difficult/relatively nonfeasible without snag hazards/impractical. Any mirror system that would be effective would have to be panoramic and take up half your field of view. Even then the image would be compressed to uselessness. You need orientation and clear normal picture to be able to tell which way to dodge.

I have no solution to this problem... I personally address it by tracking all nearby targets I can, but on anything bigger than a 6-8 way tracking all other wingsuits at once becomes impossible. I simply view it as a hazard I must accept since aside from vigilance I can do nothing about it. And I've been clobbered more than once from above and behind in the same bigway by the same guy, so far I've always been lucky and the collision was just below injury threshold.

I've lost count of the number of times I've escaped collision by either folding wings and ducking, or popping wings over an incoming bird with a closing speed I knew at a glance was unstoppable.

I've always worried that those same snap reflex moves may someday bite me or a friend by causing me to pop or drop right into someone else, since when it happens there is no time to check the direction I'm dodging TO. There is only time to act right NOW and get out of the way and hope there is nobody in my way. When you have to make an instant judgment like that you have to avoid the collision you KNOW is imminent even if it creates a risk of collision with someone you might not know is there. I do my best to mitigate THAT risk by not overreacting and only moving fast enough and far enough to dodge the collision. It is imperfect but it is the best I can do with the limits of possible awareness.

Lets be careful out there guys... know your braking distances... better to be late to slot than smack into some unsuspecting bird in your approach cone...
-B

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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It takes 2 to have a collision, so a collision requires 1 or both parties to not be looking where they are going. Look at any flying animal that forms large synchronized groups and you'll see they have reaction times much quicker (4x, 6x or 8x human).

Indeed you don't need a big formation for that. I got a collision from a 3(5)way. It was my fault to descent into someone in the formation. I got a hit from behind my head and she got a hit on the collar bone and on the hip.
Both did not know what has happened before we landed.
I got a little black out and lost my crappy helmet, she got some bruises. I was so surprised that i had no trouble see without any eye protection.
I think I have learnt my lesson: keep my eyes open and avoid target fixation.

[BenediktDE 2]

On RW jumps the approaches are done 'in your sector'. I do see it very often that this does not happen on WS formations and pilots cross flight paths diving at high speeds.
I also only know one wingsuit LO who always speaks about that on every formation WS flight. To me it seems like it is not discussed enough on many formation briefings.

Should we sharpen awareness about sector flying?
Are there WS pilots that are experienced RW-LOs and could educate those that know nothing except flying nylon? (Like me.)

How do you teach new RW flyers about sectors? Can that be transferred to WS pilots?

How can we adapt exit orders to the fact that most WS formations don't fly straight lines but patterns?

Are there RW skills that should be trained by WS pilots that are not commonly discussed?

Am I just talking BS to early in the morning and should drink more coffee before posting?

mccordia:***I know GPS navigation in cars is a great addition, but it hasnt made driving a whole lot safer either

Maybe we should try TCAS?

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.