Supplemental oxygen use when not required?

[FrogNog 1]

There are jumps that don't _require_ supplemental oxygen according to the BSRs, but that are definitely approaching requiring it. And I've heard people joke about "mild" hypoxia on these jumps, which I suppose is at least partially real.

What would you do if you wanted to jump some high "low-altitude" jumps where the air will definitely be thin and you'll be sitting in the plane for a long time and you don't want to be on the edge of hypoxia? Obviously, breathing some oxygen from a bottle would help. But I don't suppose this is provided on such flights as a matter of course - I imagine they only make it available when everyone is definitely going to be using it. (And on high "low altitude" jumps, I presume most people are too cool to use O2 if they don't "need" to.)

Could someone do their own supplemental oxygen? Do people do this? Or are there more comfortable rides to high "low altitude", complete with O2 for those who want it (and are willing to pay more, drive further, schedule loads more rarely, etc.)?

I have this fool notion that when I fling out the door, I want my brain functioning as well as possible. Not just so I can better avoid waking up dead, but so I can perform in the air better and enjoy it more. (Yeah, I'm a bit backwards on that last one, I admit it.)

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[quade 4]

USPA BRS 2-1L states:

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L. Special altitude equipment and supplementary oxygen

Supplementary oxygen available on the aircraft is mandatory on skydives made from higher than 15,000 feet (MSL). [NW]

It is a non-waiverable BSR for all USPA Group Member drop zones.

While prudent, it is not legally binding on anyone operating outside the USPA system.

For that, you need to look at FAR 91.211:

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§  91.211  Supplemental oxygen.

(a) General. No person may operate a civil aircraft of U.S. registry --

(1) At cabin pressure altitudes above 12,500 feet (MSL) up to and including 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen for that part of the flight at those altitudes that is of more than 30 minutes duration;

(2) At cabin pressure altitudes above 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen during the entire flight time at those altitudes; and

(3) At cabin pressure altitudes above 15,000 feet (MSL) unless each occupant of the aircraft is provided with supplemental oxygen.

(b) Pressurized cabin aircraft. (1) No person may operate a civil aircraft of U.S. registry with a pressurized cabin --

(i) At flight altitudes above flight level 250 unless at least a 10-minute supply of supplemental oxygen, in addition to any oxygen required to satisfy paragraph (a) of this section, is available for each occupant of the aircraft for use in the event that a descent is necessitated by loss of cabin pressurization; and

(ii) At flight altitudes above flight level 350 unless one pilot at the controls of the airplane is wearing and using an oxygen mask that is secured and sealed and that either supplies oxygen at all times or automatically supplies oxygen whenever the cabin pressure altitude of the airplane exceeds 14,000 feet (MSL), except that the one pilot need not wear and use an oxygen mask while at or below flight level 410 if there are two pilots at the controls and each pilot has a quick-donning type of oxygen mask that can be placed on the face with one hand from the ready position within 5 seconds, supplying oxygen and properly secured and sealed.

(2) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(1)(ii) of this section, if for any reason at any time it is necessary for one pilot to leave the controls of the aircraft when operating at flight altitudes above flight level 350, the remaining pilot at the controls shall put on and use an oxygen mask until the other pilot has returned to that crewmember's station.

Take a special note of 91.211(a)(3) which says that supplimental oxygen must be provided but says nothing whatsoever about mandatory use.

Again, it certainly would be wise to use it.

All of that said, there is no rule that I can find or am aware of that says you can't use supplimental oxygen at lower altitudes. In fact, it may actually be a wise move in certain instances.

Is it common? No.

Could you provide yourself with a personal oxygen system? Sure. Take a look at http://www.avweb.com/news/aeromed/182584-1.html. It appears as if you can do almost anything if you have enough cash on hand.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[FrancoR 0]

This year in germany on the safety workshop of the German Parachute Association. Oxygen on jumps performed from FL150 and FL100 was also a topic.

In germany there where attempts to make oxygen mandatory even from FL100!

A study was made to examine the effect of the high altitude especially for jumpers. It lasted for 2.5 years. Jumpers had to perform math calculations and assignement tasks before and right after the jump. The result was that they where 31% better in solving the math and tasks after the jump, compared to before. All without oxygen. In additon to that they also measured puls, bloodpressure and oxygen saturation, but i don't know the conclusion from that.

That doesn't really answer you question, but i think it is probably still interesting for you.

If it does not cost anything you are the product.

[FrogNog 1]

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This year in germany on the safety workshop of the German Parachute Association. Oxygen on jumps performed from FL150 and FL100 was also a topic.

In germany there where attempts to make oxygen mandatory even from FL100!

A study was made to examine the effect of the high altitude especially for jumpers. It lasted for 2.5 years. Jumpers had to perform math calculations and assignement tasks before and right after the jump. The result was that they where 31% better in solving the math and tasks after the jump, compared to before. All without oxygen. In additon to that they also measured puls, bloodpressure and oxygen saturation, but i don't know the conclusion from that.

That doesn't really answer you question, but i think it is probably still interesting for you.

Yeah, I got a laugh about that. I can imagine being forced to do mathematics for 2.5 years again, and if there wasn't skydiving involved, I wouldn't do it. :)

I would be interested in reading what they discussed about oxygen use from FL150 and FL100.

A common theme here is that just because something isn't required, doesn't mean it isn't a good, or at least a decent, idea.

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[mjosparky 4]

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(2) At cabin pressure altitudes above 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen during the entire flight time at those altitudes; and

As is states, the given altitudes are in MSL, so for example, at Perris a jump from 12,500 AGL would in fact be 13913 MSL and at Elsinore a jump from 12,500 AGL would be 13753 MSL. Many DZ's around the country would exceed the 14,000 MSL ceiling on a 12,500 AGL jump requiring that the pilot be on supplemental O2 during at least the jump run portion of the flight.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[FrogNog 1]

Thanks, Quade, that looks like exactly the sort of system I was considering.

It's not a slam-dunk, of course; jumping out of an airplane with a hard steel bottle somewhere on my body is different from jumping without one. And I figure I'd want to consult with some people in the know about bail-out bottles (and rigging them) to look at those entanglement and injury risks. But, I am seriously considering this for high-altitude jumps at other DZs which will tend to be higher than mine (16 foot MSL :).

Edited to add: local welding shop sez they can do aviator's oxygen proper for about $.30 per cubic foot. Getting the bottles filled will be a bit tricky because they normally like to do bottle exchange which won't work on bottles only 12" tall and their standard minimum order unit is twenty cu ft (damn!), but the pricing isn't making this unworkable....

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[mjosparky 4]

Go to you local airport and check if any of the FBO's have aviatiors O2 service for aircraft.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[nightjumps 1]

Wow. You need to spend more time jumping and less time worrying about hypoxia. When the pilot starts worrying about hypoxia, then you can worry about it. He's still got a plane to land.

[FrogNog 1]

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Wow. You need to spend more time jumping and less time worrying about hypoxia. When the pilot starts worrying about hypoxia, then you can worry about it. He's still got a plane to land.

I totally agree with you that I need to spend more time jumping. And late Fall in Western Washington means high altitude and thin air are half a year away. I'm just thinking ahead to other stuff I want to do and higher altitude jumps sound cool, but hypoxia doesn't, and I feel there's a "gray area" of really thin air before supplemental oxygen is required, and just because everyone else thinks choking is cool doesn't mean I have to too.

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[pilotdave 0]

Look into getting some time in an altitude chamber. I've never done it, and I'm not exactly sure how to go about it, but I know you can find ways to do it. You'll see exactly how your body reacts to hypoxia, and at what altitude you need to start worrying. Hypoxia affects different people in all different ways. If it's something you're really worried about, learn what YOUR symptoms are. They may not be the same as the jumpers around you. Some people feel very calm and euphoric, others get really nervous. Some people feel tightness in their chests. You definitely won't feel like you're choking though!

Personally, hypoxia isn't something I worry about. At 14,000 for only a few minutes, I don't think I would get more than very mild hypoxia, and I'd also guess that it would be pretty much gone by pull time.

Dave

[Amazon 7]

Actuallllly you do not start "choking" I had altitude chamber training back long ago and got very familiar with some of the first things that happen "to me". My own personal warnings are tinglies in my figertips... and slight shortness of breath. The effects of hypoxia on a given person cannot be accurately predicted. A person may be relatively unaffected one day, but highly susceptible the next. It is difficult to detect hypoxia, because its victims are seldom able to judge how seriously they are affected, or if they are affected at all. The unpleasant sensations experienced in suffocation are absent in the case of hypoxia. Blurring of vision, slight shortness of breath, a vague, weak feeling, and a little dizziness are the only warnings. You may want to attend an altitude chamber training.

FAA Office of Aerospace Medicine _ Chamber link
http://www.cami.jccbi.gov/aam-400/phys_intro.htm

The closest facility to us is at Fairchild AFB over in Spokane... Been there done that.. smelled the fart room TOOOO many times. (You will get that AFTER you take a whiff of the air in there.. its like IBETOMP x 10)

Once you have the Certification there are a few places that have some High Altitude jumps...Closest is Skydance. in Davis CA.


30,000 ft dives
http://www.skydance.net/sd/glossary.htm#Anchor-highalti

[riggerrob 643]

Since - as Amazon said - hypoxia is very difficult to identify until after you have done a chamber ride, and most people are terrible at admitting that they are hypoxic, supplementary oxygen is a good idea on any jump above 10,000 feet.
Apparently all the jump planes at the U.S.Air Force Academy (runway 5,000 feet above sea level) everyone starts breathing oxygen right after takeoff, because exit altitude is about 17,000 feet above sea level.
Unfortunately, supplementary oxygen is also very expensive.
One way to reduce cost is to buy oxygen from your local welding supply house. According to a recent issue of Aviation Consumer magazine, there is no chemical difference between welder's oxygen and aviator's breathing oxygen as they come from the same tube in the refinery. Just don't let the FAA know.
Another option would be a commercial "pony bottle." Apparently these are available in Japan for people who want to climb Mount Fuji. Hmmmm!
You could breath from the pony bottle and stuff it under the seat just before exit.
The short term solution is buying some form of pony bottle to use in the airplane. The long term solution is taking up some aerobic sport (swimming, running, bicycling, etc.) that increases your aerobic capacity. But in the end, some people are more susceptible than others and still should breath supplemental oxygen in the airplane any time they are 10,000 feet above sea level.
One last piece of trivia, hypoxia can reduce night vision at as low a 5,000 feet above sea level.

Hee! Hee! Maybe the next marketing craze for gear stores will be supplemental oxygen. Just as cocaine helps some athletes perform better, oxygen helps some skydivers perform better. Hee! Hee!

[FrogNog 1]

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Hee! Hee! Maybe the next marketing craze for gear stores will be supplemental oxygen. Just as cocaine helps some athletes perform better, oxygen helps some skydivers perform better. Hee! Hee!

True, and oxygen is addicting - once you start, you can't stop until you're dead!

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[quade 4]

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True, and oxygen is addicting - once you start, you can't stop until you're dead!

And, you can overdose on it and it also causes cancer . . . what else could you want?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver