D-Bag: stows down the middle

[skymama 37]

I'm thinking of having my rubber bands on my D-bag changed from being on the sides to going down the middle of the bag. Are there any disadvantages to this? Is it any harder to pack? Has anyone out there made the change? Any comments would be appreciated.
If it matters, I jump a Vector 3 and Sabre 2 170.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[jerry81 10]

I felt it was slightly easier to stow the lines on a bag with the stows on the cover...in my experience, the top changes shape much less than the sides of the bag while you're stowing the lines/putting the bag in the container, which means less chance of lines going slack or slipping out of the stows. But I'm no authority on these things.

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[towerrat 0]

I find it easier to use the top stows than the side stows. That aside, the reason for top stows (in theory) is so your bag doesn't wobble back and forth as much on deployment. This allows for a smoother, hopefully more on heading deployment. Most of the newer gear I've seen has top and side stow options,and they are usually set up with the stows on top.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!

[sunshine 2]

Umm....do you really pack it?

Anyhoo, i like bags with the stows down the middle better than on the side. I think they're easier to pack and i think it keeps the lines a bit neater.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[skymama 37]

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Umm....do you really pack it?

LOL, I've done every one of my pack jobs since May!

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[riggerrob 643]

Offering to massage your painful pectoral muscle.
Lecherous laugh!
Hah! Hah!
I sewed line line stows on both the middle and sides of the last few main d-bags - that I made - but only use the middle stows.

[nightjumps 1]

Middle stows.
Less line twists.
I also stow my D-Bag straight up & down (Don't twist it so the lines are at the bottom of the container - the stowed lines are actually in the back of the pack tray.)

Much cleaner deployments.

[skycat 0]

We have changed every rig in the house that wasn't already set up like that. (my Mirage came with stows down the center). Keeps the lines neater, less chance of "line dump" since the stows are closer together, and keeps the bag from bouncing back and forth when openings. Personally I'd never go back to the other location for stows.

Fly it like you stole it!

[sid 1]

in this article about the Jump Shack "speedbag"
http://www.sidsrigging.com/Articles/equipmentarticles/speedbag.htm I refer to John Shermans theory that the distribution of mass of the lines is one of the most important aspects of the line stowing process.
Having the bands in the middle makes it easier to distribute their mass evenly, and avoid making the stows so that they can wrap around each other causing a potential malfunction.

I think it is the better way to go.......

Pete Draper,

Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right?

[grega 0]

It all has been said. but you might need 2 or 3 extra rubber bands, since stows are closer together and you need to make more of them to stow the same length of the lines as before.

I'm for the stows in the middle all the way too. My mirage g4 actually has them only in the middle.

"George just lucky i guess!"

[NightJumper 0]

Just get them put on and it is one less thing you have to worry about. It only takes about 10 min. and you know where you can get it done for free anyway

[Kolla 0]

I changed to a "stows down the middle" bag and noticed a difference in my openings (to the better, mainly more on heading).
I also find packing nicer that way.

However, to be sure you like packing that way, maybe you should come out and pack for me for a day or so

Blue ones,
Kolla

Blue Skies Magazine

[Beachbum 0]

Thanks for the link ... I'd heard about them but hadn't actually seen one set up that way. It looks and sounds like a good concept, but I have one concern. With the stows so close together, is a baglock from line entanglement more likely (particularly on larger bags, which using this 50% method, would put a little more line outside the bands on each side)?

[rmsmith 1]

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...after packing myself a slammer.

I would talk to PD about another slider. I have a Sabre2 that was just not sniveling enough before...whack, the slider hits the links; yikes! They made me another slider that was 3-inches longer in the chord dimension at no charge; just traded them with the current slider.

[NightJumper 0]

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Thanks for the link ... I'd heard about them but hadn't actually seen one set up that way. It looks and sounds like a good concept, but I have one concern. With the stows so close together, is a baglock from line entanglement more likely (particularly on larger bags, which using this 50% method, would put a little more line outside the bands on each side)?

No, the stows should be placed so that 50% is in the center between the stows and 25% on the outside of stow. Size doesn't matter() as this is also the way it is done on tandems. If you are using the proper mil spec. rubber bands they should always break and prevent any bag lock.

[skymama 37]

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However, to be sure you like packing that way, maybe you should come out and pack for me for a day or so

Sure I'll pack for you. But just remember that I'm the one who still can't move her right arm without pain from the slammer I packed two weeks ago. Don't say I didn't warn ya.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[rigging65 0]

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No, the stows should be placed so that 50% is in the center between the stows and 25% on the outside of stow. Size doesn't matter as this is also the way it is done on tandems. If you are using the proper mil spec. rubber bands they should always break and prevent any bag lock.

...so, for all of you out there not using Mil. Spec. stow bands (which is probably 90% of you), be careful about how much line you let hang out of the outboard side of the stow. Anything more than about 2 inches and you're asking for trouble!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[Samurai136 0]

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My first cutaway/ save was a bag lock w/ mil-spec bands. If a line from one stow half-hitches around the next stow, I don't think it matters what kind of band you use.

This is crossposted from the mil-spec/ bag lock thread.

I use mil-spec bands and in-board line stows. I think this particular pack job I let the stows get a little un-even and long. But the band definately wasn't going to break and I wasn't waiting for it either.

The openings are generally good if the rest of your packing/ line stows are neat and orderly.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[rigging65 0]

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If you are using the proper mil spec. rubber bands they should always break and prevent any bag lock.

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My first cutaway/ save was a bag lock w/ mil-spec bands.

Someone might want to fill NightJumper in on this sort of stuff....seeing as how Jump Shack is pretty sure Mil. Spec. rubber bands are the answer to bag locks....

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[NightJumper 0]

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Someone might want to fill NightJumper in on this sort of stuff....seeing as how Jump Shack is pretty sure Mil. Spec. rubber bands are the answer to bag locks....

According to whom? I used the word "should" not "will in all cases come hell or high water". And are you saying that mil-spec. bands are not better than just using any old band? The purpose for specifying mil-spec. is that they are more consistent. And yes they do reduce the chance of bag lock. And they defiantly are more likely to break in comparison to bungee cord type safety stows.

[rigging65 0]

All I'm saying is that on two separate instances I heard, in the First person, representatives from Jump Shack stating that you "must" use Mil Spec. bands to be "safe" (Their words, not mine).

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And yes they do reduce the chance of bag lock.

Cool! Show me the hard data that shows that. Show me the data that over years and years of field use there is any concrete advantage of Mil. Spec. bands over regular bands. You'll first need that the inconsistent strength characteristics of "regular" stow bands somehow causes baglocks. Oh, and also that a looped-and-locked stow will be somehow "released" by a Mil. Spec. band...

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And they defiantly are more likely to break in comparison to bungee cord type safety stows.

And why would you want that? There hasn't been a problem with reserve bags hanging up, has there? Why change the system that's working just fine? IMO, the ability for a locking stow to "break" more easily just invites an out of sequence deployment. The single piece safety stow stays put until it's supposed to release, is less prone to damage and is round, thus decreasing the odds of it knotting up...and has the added advantage of slipping loose if one side does hang up. How are those advantages matched by using individual stow bands....regardless of what they're made of?

IMO, Common sense and good practice tell you that there is NEVER a reason to stow 25% of a 10-12 inch line length outside the rubber band, regardless of how strong or weak the bands are. You're asking for bag lock if you do. Two inches or slightly less for each stow, no more....

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[NightJumper 0]

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All I'm saying is that on two separate instances I heard, in the First person, representatives from Jump Shack stating that you "must" use Mil Spec. bands to be "safe" (Their words, not mine).

Well since you are avoiding the question I can't address it.

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Cool! Show me the hard data that shows that. Show me the data that over years and years of field use there is any concrete advantage of Mil. Spec. bands over regular bands. You'll first need that the inconsistent strength characteristics of "regular" stow bands somehow causes baglocks. Oh, and also that a looped-and-locked stow will be somehow "released" by a Mil. Spec. band...

This, as you are aware was covered at length at the PIA conference and not just by Jump Shack but also at length by your peers. And do you really want to get into the childish argument about "inconsistent strength"?

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And why would you want that? There hasn't been a problem with reserve bags hanging up, has there?

Because there have been reserve bag strips that have left the canopy in the container, line strips and bag locks.

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Why change the system that's working just fine? IMO, the ability for a locking stow to "break" more easily just invites an out of sequence deployment. The single piece safety stow stays put until it's supposed to release, is less prone to damage and is round, thus decreasing the odds of it knotting up...and has the added advantage of slipping loose if one side does hang up. How are those advantages matched by using individual stow bands....regardless of what they're made of?

Are you really asking why I would rather have a band break than have a bag lock on a reserve? And why do all of the major canopy manufactures use bags where all of the stows are locking stows when testing?

And you might want to check your percentages ("90%"), as to how many people are using mil-spec. bands since the most commonly sold bands are Keener bands, which are mi-spec.

If you would like to continue this healthy constructive debate, I would invite you to do so in PM's, phone calls or in person.

Stay safe,
Mike

[webracer 0]

I like them on the topflap best. I put Mirage d-bags in all my rigs, I think they are superior in construction and design. I have used Mirage d-bags in Wings, Javelins, Mirage (duh), Talon2, and soon my new Micron. But please be carefull when mixing d-bags and containers, measure and accept the consequences if you f-up. BTW, I use G3 bags, not the asymetrical G4 bags.
Good luck, and may no slammers come your way

Troy

I am now free to exercise my downward mobility.

[diablopilot 2]

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If you are using the proper mil spec. rubber bands they should always break and prevent any bag lock.

To repeat coments from another thread: rubberbands (mil spec or otherwise), Tube Stows, Superbands, bungies, ect. and NOT the cause of bag locks.

Sloppy packing is.

I have seen the result of several bag lock malfunctions post recovery of the equipment and none would have cleared simply by a stow band breaking.

Clean line stows prevent bag locks.

I have more than 1500 jumps on double stowed (even on the locking stows) superbands on various line types, with no hint of a malfunction.




And to the person recomending placing the D-Bag in the container bridal to the top. Please stop making this recomendation. It may work for you, but it's not the way the manufacturers instructions read, and someone reading this forum and following your advice may not experience a proper deployment.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[rigging65 0]

No, why don't we continue the healthy debate here, so that others can benefit from it? That is the purpose of this type of forum, to spread ideas and let individuals draw their own conclusions.

Your initial post used the word "always", something that I think is very dangerous to do when you're talking about the function of gear...even if you use the word "should" before it. You know as well as I that "always" is a dangerous word. IMO, you used it in a place you shouldn't have and I called you on it, that's all.

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This, as you are aware was covered at length at the PIA conference and not just by Jump Shack but also at length by your peers. And do you really want to get into the childish argument about "inconsistent strength"?

And I don't think anything came out of it that I want to hang my hat on. I was with some very prominent Master Riggers at that discussion and their basic reaction was "whatever". IMO, it was a crusade spearheaded by Jump Shack to prove a point that they seem to hold basically alone. Kind of like those soft Teflon coated cables. That's what I got out of it. Perhaps you can enlighten us with long term facts?

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Because there have been reserve bag strips that have left the canopy in the container, line strips and bag locks.

How many? Where? When? Is this an epidemic? Do you know something the rest of use don't? Please, tell us if you do!!

Considering every rig out there (with the exception of some Racers) use a Safety Stow, and people aren't dropping out of the sky dead on every reserve ride, and that you can't know that every time a freebag comes down without it's Safety Stow it didn't do it's job and slip loose while preventing a bag lock, I'd say that, if there is a problem, it's certainly not large enough or well studied enough to constitute a change at this point.

In our loft, about every third Freebag we get in after a ride is missing it's Safety Stow. Is every missing Safety Stow a saved life? Could be, probably not, but it could be. With this in mind, it's not a stretch in logic to conclude the Safety Stow could be one of the most used save-your-ass innovations on our rigs! Now, I certainly don't believe that that's entirely the case, but how do you know it's not? And if you can't be relatively sure about that, than how come you want to change a system that, for all intents and purposes, works 99% of the time to a system that has known, potential failures and that fails in the "real" world on a regular basis (bag locks with rubber band stowed lines)? Sure, the systems are a bit different, but why fix something that's not broken by using a damaged band-aid?

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Are you really asking why I would rather have a band break than have a bag lock on a reserve?

No, I'm asking you why you want to trade a system that does not have a proven history of failure (Safety Stows) for a system that has several failure points (bands breaking causing out of sequence deployments, loop-and-lock bag locks, higher maintenance criteria, etc).

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And why do all of the major canopy manufactures use bags where all of the stows are locking stows when testing?

I don't know, they might have a very valid reason for it, but why does every Container Mfg. (with the exception of one) use Free Stowed Reserve bags on their test and production rigs?

It occurs to me, going back and reading what I've typed, that what we're really talking about is the quality of a stow band AND whether that stow band should be integrated into our last-chance system. If you think Mil. Spec. bands are the best for your main bag, I won't argue with you. I'm not convinced, but to be honest I don't care much...it's you main. I don't use stow bands at all on my main D-bag and I've proven (at least to myself) that line stows on your main are basically a mute point. Keep the lines in some order and the canopy will work.
BUT, what I do take issue with is that we have a working system with a good record that you want to change for what appears to be the simple sake of change. It's not broke, quit trying to fix it...and if you do insist on trying to fix it, use a system with less failings!

Thanks for making me think on this one Mike. Keeping my brain stimulated while looking out at our LZ through the rain is tough!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."