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About 35 years ago I was a new skydiver, jumping at a tiny DZ on Long Island and dreaming about moving somewhere new. I spent some of my free time at work posting on rec.skydiving - a Usenet group that catered to skydivers. It was a different time back then. To be able to get to Usenet at all means you needed a modem and a computer, both pricey purchases, and you needed to be able to get them to work together, which meant you needed some tech experience. As a result, not many people were on Usenet - just me and a few other tech nerds. And there was hardly any spam! Slowly over the years more people figured it out and started joining. I remember TooyT, Barry Brumitt (wrote the first skydiving FAQ!) Lance Kirwin, Kevin O'Connell, Dave Appel and Jerry Sobieski. I also met Amy on there, which changed the course of my life in a big way. I moved to California in '94 both to escape a bad relationship and to skydive. And of course because I found a great company - Qualcomm - in San Diego. By that point Usenet was becoming a cesspool of Viagra ads and foreign bride offers, and filters had not gotten good enough yet to remove all that, so browsing it was painful. So when Willem announced he was starting DZ.com I felt a big sense of relief. He got in touch with me to see if I wanted to moderate S+T and Incidents, which I said yes to. We started with a complement of about a dozen moderators, some of which I got to know really well. I spent a day in San Diego with Andrea watching whales swim by the gliderport, and I spent a few days with Chuck and Katie at Raeford jumping. Derek once built me a tersh just because I was talking about how I needed one (thanks again Derek) and Remi, Karen and I would meet up whenever we were out at Eloy. Seven of us once got together at Eloy and did the now-infamous moderator jump, angled carefully so no one could see Willem's face on camera. I think Eric and Scott were on that one as well. I also met a bunch of other people from DZ.com in real life - Lisa, Keely, Gary, Winsor - and saw them at Perris and at boogies all the time. It grew my circle of friends from Socal jumpers to jumpers all over the US. And even the world; I met some people from the Irish Parachute Club and made a trip out there to jump with them. I recall a lot of drinking. Over time as moderators changed I took on moderation of a few more forums, but to me the S+T and Incidents forum were always the important ones. I got some sort of award - a "skydivers hall of fame" or something from Parachutist for running that, and got on a few podcasts talking about safety and incidents. One of my proudest moments during that time was reading an incident by a newer jumper flying a too-small canopy. He had read one of my many diatribes on "LEARN FLAT TURNS!" and had tried them once or twice. Then one day he found himself flying downwind by accident, and he tried to turn into the wind at 50 feet. He tried that flat turn he had heard about, but there was something off about it (he explained) because he landed hard, tore his jumpsuit and sprained his ankle. The fact that he was complaining about a sprained ankle after a turn at 50 feet under a heavily loaded canopy made me think that maybe this forum was actually doing some good. I learned a lot, too, mainly from the forums I wasn't moderating - forums like General and Gear and Rigging. Based on what I learned about wingsuiting here, for example, I bought a small wingsuit, taught myself how to fly it, started moving up in wingsuit sizes - then met Jari and became one of the first Birdman wingsuit instructors in the US. And over the years we lost people here too, of course. In some ways this place served as a memorial; you could go back and read what Shannon or Taz had posted while they were still alive, and remember them that way. Over the years traffic has started to fall off as people find more social-media options for skydiving, which is a natural evolution. I'm sorry that it will be disappearing sooner rather than later, but nothing lasts forever. It will be interesting to see what happens to the database; all these incident reports and threads on canopy flight have a lot of value (IMO) and I hope we can save some of it. Thanks to everyone who participated on this site over the decades it has been running, and thanks especially to all the moderators who I've worked with - Wendy, Lisa, Andrea, Chuck, Eric, Remi, Meso and all the others. And of course thanks to Willem for doing all the work to set up and maintain this site. See you out there.

Actually there are people who have different views to the majority and are not trolls. They are sincere in their beliefs and disagree strongly while still being able to hold a rational conversation and make a point (people like Bigun etc). The childish trolling adds no value and is frankly not entertaining after you’ve left kindergarten.

About 35 years ago I was a new skydiver, jumping at a tiny DZ on Long Island and dreaming about moving somewhere new. I spent some of my free time at work posting on rec.skydiving - a Usenet group that catered to skydivers. It was a different time back then. To be able to get to Usenet at all means you needed a modem and a computer, both pricey purchases, and you needed to be able to get them to work together, which meant you needed some tech experience. As a result, not many people were on Usenet - just me and a few other tech nerds. And there was hardly any spam! Slowly over the years more people figured it out and started joining. I remember TooyT, Barry Brumitt (wrote the first skydiving FAQ!) Lance Kirwin, Kevin O'Connell, Dave Appel and Jerry Sobieski. I also met Amy on there, which changed the course of my life in a big way. I moved to California in '94 both to escape a bad relationship and to skydive. And of course because I found a great company - Qualcomm - in San Diego. By that point Usenet was becoming a cesspool of Viagra ads and foreign bride offers, and filters had not gotten good enough yet to remove all that, so browsing it was painful. So when Willem announced he was starting DZ.com I felt a big sense of relief. He got in touch with me to see if I wanted to moderate S+T and Incidents, which I said yes to. We started with a complement of about a dozen moderators, some of which I got to know really well. I spent a day in San Diego with Andrea watching whales swim by the gliderport, and I spent a few days with Chuck and Katie at Raeford jumping. Derek once built me a tersh just because I was talking about how I needed one (thanks again Derek) and Remi, Karen and I would meet up whenever we were out at Eloy. Seven of us once got together at Eloy and did the now-infamous moderator jump, angled carefully so no one could see Willem's face on camera. I think Eric and Scott were on that one as well. I also met a bunch of other people from DZ.com in real life - Lisa, Keely, Gary, Winsor - and saw them at Perris and at boogies all the time. It grew my circle of friends from Socal jumpers to jumpers all over the US. And even the world; I met some people from the Irish Parachute Club and made a trip out there to jump with them. I recall a lot of drinking. Over time as moderators changed I took on moderation of a few more forums, but to me the S+T and Incidents forum were always the important ones. I got some sort of award - a "skydivers hall of fame" or something from Parachutist for running that, and got on a few podcasts talking about safety and incidents. One of my proudest moments during that time was reading an incident by a newer jumper flying a too-small canopy. He had read one of my many diatribes on "LEARN FLAT TURNS!" and had tried them once or twice. Then one day he found himself flying downwind by accident, and he tried to turn into the wind at 50 feet. He tried that flat turn he had heard about, but there was something off about it (he explained) because he landed hard, tore his jumpsuit and sprained his ankle. The fact that he was complaining about a sprained ankle after a turn at 50 feet under a heavily loaded canopy made me think that maybe this forum was actually doing some good. I learned a lot, too, mainly from the forums I wasn't moderating - forums like General and Gear and Rigging. Based on what I learned about wingsuiting here, for example, I bought a small wingsuit, taught myself how to fly it, started moving up in wingsuit sizes - then met Jari and became one of the first Birdman wingsuit instructors in the US. And over the years we lost people here too, of course. In some ways this place served as a memorial; you could go back and read what Shannon or Taz had posted while they were still alive, and remember them that way. Over the years traffic has started to fall off as people find more social-media options for skydiving, which is a natural evolution. I'm sorry that it will be disappearing sooner rather than later, but nothing lasts forever. It will be interesting to see what happens to the database; all these incident reports and threads on canopy flight have a lot of value (IMO) and I hope we can save some of it. Thanks to everyone who participated on this site over the decades it has been running, and thanks especially to all the moderators who I've worked with - Wendy, Lisa, Andrea, Chuck, Eric, Remi, Meso and all the others. And of course thanks to Willem for doing all the work to set up and maintain this site. See you out there.

It's more paranoid than selfish, but to some degree it is selfish IMO. It's also a HUGE responsibility, one that's often forgotten or ignored.

You're a bit new here and the plug is about to be pulled. I wore the uniform for twenty years. I spent a lot of time in other countries doing just that. From when I came home, I never felt the need to _have_ to wear a gun or even keep one in reach until ten years ago. In fact, ten years ago, one could not have a gun on their person or in their vehicle unless the person was registered. As to concealed carry - all for the training and registering the person. But, not every swinging Richard should have a gun so readily available as to have a rage moment and wipe out a whole block (or school).

The well regulated part could really use a bit more attention. At least some of the recent shooting have held the "responsible" gun owner partly responsible for their careless ownership and easy access to the weapons. We need more of that IMO. Someone steals or accesses a weapon not securely stored? 10 years minimum. Death as a result of said access to weapon, 20 years. We have way too many irresponsible gun owners.

Not here as long as Bill but I have jumped over the years with a bunch of former and current members, and some of the old Usenet folks too. This includes a 100+ way at Perris with Billvon, and a fancy jump at Quincy with Winsor (we also gave an evening presentation on exit separation one year). Also jumped with Wendy and Andrea at one time or another. And , of course, TK at Z-Hills.

Hope you get to spend time with family and friends and best wishes to you.

Take government and the rule of law away entirely. Do you think life would be better? I think any sane person understands that would not be the case, ergo government does more good than harm.

You sound like a toddler caught in the driver's seat of an articulated lorry. If you were qualified to have a weapon, you'd have nothing to fear. But it looks like you need weapons as a crutch for more deep-seated psychological issues.

Thanks for the fact check. Being burned alive is horrific. We had a few lectures from the head of the arson investigation unit and apparently it’s quite common for indigenous women to take their lives by setting themselves on fire (Australia). Some of the most disturbing images I’ve seen and nothing like TV.

I think you might be confusing the emptiness in your head with a safe space.

Nor should you. We have Jakee for that and for my money he's worth every cent we've paid. The man is good at what he does, no error.

Why oh Why is everyone avoiding the punch bowl I just shat in???!? This is the worst party ever!

I’m not offended, I’ve got great respect for the people who have stood by their convictions- even if I vehemently disagree (Ron is probably the person I disagree with the most). My recollection of interactions with you is that you won’t stand by your arguments or answer direct questions, it makes it difficult to take your arguments seriously. Admittedly I don’t keep track and personally won’t keep hammering away to get someone to follow through so that may be an unfair portrayal.

Speaking of parachutes, my latest episode is out now. DB Cooper asked for parachutes with my good friend Mike Davis. https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-tf5k6-1781253 Enjoy!

Not in his mind! In his mind he's totally owning you. And not in a creepy gay way, because he's not that way at ALL.

No, big talkers and keyboard warriors don't scare me. Anyone who flaunts symbols like you do is obviously a poser.

We minions will adjust and adapt, I'm sure. It's you Mod's I worry about. Maybe you could get a dog to train. Should be a no brainer after this.

for a supposedly straight guy you are very obsessed with men giving you oral sex. I don't judge, you don't have to hide your sexuality around me.

Oh, you won't be rid of me that easily. Bill, thank you kindly for all of the knowledge and wisdom you've shared here, and, too often in my case, extreme forbearance. Truly, it is the irony of my life that someone who has such a difficult time following simple rules would end up being a DZO in charge of making others follow simple rules, but there it is. I think now is the time to say goodbye to so many of you, along with a huge thank you for all of the interesting conversations, thoughts and mostly, the opportunities to question my own held views. That is truly a valuable gift and one worth acknowledging on this, the eve before the day of gift giving. If anything I've had to say here had any more than comedic value to anyone, be assured that in exchange I most certainly received the better end of the trade. I wish everyone here without exception the happiest of holidays and that safety and good fortune are your rewards to come. Thanks for the good times, Joe

The reason I ask is i hear comments all the time about people being concerned about the safety of kids in schools and how more regulations are needed ect. I simply suggest to people that have that much passion for the safety of kids is do something about it. Go get hired with a police dept go through training then become a school resource officer and actually protect them. I in no way want everyone carrying a gun. I’m a retired police officer of 30 years and there are police i don’t want to have guns much less many people in the general public. . I want shooters to take it on themselves to get more training not the government requiring it. I am new here and just started skydiving the day after my retirement in May.

I received several super high resolution photographs of the aircraft at Reno from the University of Nevada-Reno. This one shows the "damage" done to the stairs in really good clarity.

1 Cor 2:1-5,14 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. IYKYK MERRY CHRISTMAS

Rataczak did tell Soderlind at the time he thought the oscillations were Cooper jumping. Also 5 or 10 minutes after 8:05 is 8:10-8:15. Rataczak is trying to pinpoint the location using a range based on marked times.. From 8:05 last contact with Cooper to his call with Soderlind. "not yet reached Portland proper" refers to the Soderlind call not the oscillations/jump.. If that call was "shortly/minutes?" after Cooper jumped and before Portland and in the suburbs,, then Cooper's jump was before the suburbs of Portland. Now, what exactly did he mean by the suburbs of Portland..

Glad to hear you reconsidering. We have a sense of what his situation was (at least WRT to gun ownership) from what he posted here. He regularly posted about how he will use his guns to defend his family; one of his biggest fears was to "not have a gun and need one to save your life/others from harm." He regularly mocked people who were concerned about improper use of guns: "just ignore every thread he posts about kids shooting mothers in the head kind of shit." And of course he explained that only nutso people might harm their families with guns: "every country has their nutbags that should not get their hands on a gun." In other words, his attitude was very similar to yours. We know that one day he decided to kill his two teenage daughters, his wife and then himself. I don't really care what his situation was; there is no "situation" that justifies murdering your children and your wife, and I am sure you would agree. But since he had the means, the mass murder he carried out was accomplished quickly and easily. No gun owner here thinks they will ever do that, of course. Billy certainly didn't. But we know that some do anyway. And that's why, if you own a gun, your family is more likely to be killed by a gun.

And what of the real life experiences of high school children? Since Columbine there have been over 640 children killed or injured in school shootings. You're not going to beat me up about real life expereinces, Brother. I have them. And, one experience I have is coming back to the US and not feeling like I had to have a gun on my hip, or fear that children would die, or fear that mine could die every time I got a page from the school. P.S. Hers and her school friends favorite hang out had a shooting the sunday before last. Enough is enough.

If you celebrate the holidays, I hope they’re wonderful. If you don’t, I hope you can avoid stores… And best wishes to everyone! Wendy P.

Agree, he pulled, he survived with possibly some injury. Cooper got non-steerable emergency back bailout rigs, probably did not expect that. If you bring your own you can guarantee a freefall rig. Unlikely Cooper used an NB6.. (based on Cossey) There were trackers at the time, not GPS but radio beepers. They ping on an emergency frequency for 24-36 hours. If he pulled at 2000 ft his drift would be less than a mile. Since the FP map has 1 mile error then Cooper would have landed very close to the FP.... It was not Ted Braden. He was the badass of badasses, Cooper wasn't. Ted has dimples, less hair, crooked mouth and a very winkled forehead. Cooper's presence and demeanour does not fit Braden. Cooper was unmemorable. Agree, Cooper had many miltary jumps.. not Braden level but more than a few.. Cunningham's FP timing is incorrect. Ignore it. Sketch B is the closest likeness.. no question. Cooper jumped between the Lewis R and Battleground. Plane pitched at 8:09, that was Cooper reaching the bottom of the stairs. Oscillations increased violently culminating in a pressure bump, That is within minutes of the reported oscillations. 8:11-8:15 at most.. The case is solved, just nobody can put a suspect on the plane. YES, either bomb was real or if fake made by somebody who knew explosives. Money was not planted. No way.. Nobody buries cash in that environment and close proximately to the River, high water line. Many better places and ways to cache it if Cooper wanted to. No, the Government doesn't need to get money from hijacking planes. The CIA has lots of ways to make money. Elsinore ghost, Cameron was embellishing a person he met... walked it back, it is in the 302's. Cooper asked for notes and matchbook because of the writing on them.. not prints. Cooper did care about leaving prints. Weirdly, I heard females prefer violent true crime.. Cooper was a strategist.. Barb was NOT Clara... Letters are too short for stylometry,, random noise. If Clara was legit then the initial contact with Gunther was legit, at least a real person, hoaxer or Cooper. It is just really strange that a hoaxer(s) would disappear for ten years make contact and not ask for money. Skip was not Cooper, his massive forehead creases eliminate him. No way...

No you won’t and no you aren’t. You are doing NOTHING for those kids and you simply don’t give a flying fuck but sure, you and your fellow gun-right-above-all-else crazies can easily convince yourself that you are fighting for something while hundreds of thousands of people and billions of dollars are grossly affected by gun violence keep fighting you hypocrites

No, it shows your character too. You're scared, and I feel sorry for you.

You have shown that you are far more concerned with your rights to own a plaything that may possibly help in a hypothetical emergency (and may equally likely result in getting you or your family killed), than you are with the right to life of tens of thousands of Americans who die each year due to inadequate gun laws. Americans are 46 times more likely to be shot dead than, say British or Spanish residents. Seems pretty selfish to me.

You didn't say family or self -- you said stuff. There's a big difference. And generally that's where it stops. In 70 years of living in two countries and several large cities, I've never been mugged. I'm female, blonde, and not really tall. And it's not like I'm uber-careful. Yes, it happens, but I'll save my preparation for things with a higher likelihood. Wendy P.

licensing registration training accountability

The world is greater than you, turtle. Sometimes you refers to a much larger group. But you specifically keep fighting against, or certainly not supporting restrictions and regulations around firearms and people are dying as a result of it.

Why do you think only 100% effective means success? Pretty dumb. So on base the police have guns and the "population" does not and shootings are exceedingly rare. General public, police have guns, the "population" has guns and shootings are exceedingly frequent. Turtle: more guns is the answer. lol

All over time, but to enforce it you need to have an understanding of who owns what firearms. Just like one does with cars, or fertilizer.

Yes, it actually does negate an NB6.. Cossey was the only source for the claim.. nothing corroborates it. Hayden's description doesn't match an NB6.. Olive drab with tan cloth harness. Hayden said the chutes were the same/similar.. An NB6 is nothing like his Pioneer. I think Hayden called it military because it was Olive Drab. That tan one was a civilian version. There were many models that were very similar. The WW2 military chutes were Olive Drab,, later NB6's were Sage Green.. The packing card doesn't really match it either,, a 24' conical in an NB6 container is unlikely and it does not confirm an NB6.. So, it is very unlikely it was an NB6... that is where I started this. Either the 24 or the 28 is wrong.. A 28 matches a flat circular. The card called the 24 a conical.. On balance if one is an error it is most likely Hayden..

With about a week to go, I’m bumping this up. One of the things I’ve really enjoyed about SC is a space to air controversial views and discussions without ruining friendships. There are lots of online friendships that we’ve probably all shared along the way and SC can’t be replaced and in many ways it has run its course. I’m surprised how quickly the PA’s escalated once Bill and Wendy took a more hands off approach, and I certainly won’t miss trolls and PA’s, but would like to continue having a space to disagree and discuss.

If you discount EVERYTHING Cossey said then there is no NB6, that is what I have been claiming. I was just reconciling Cossey's erroneous narratives. Hayden's description conflicts with the packing card... I think Hayden's description is correct except the 28'... that could be some type of error by Hayden or the agent. It was claimed only once,, while Cossey repeated it over and over... So, he meant it. I think the packing card 24' carries more weight than Hayden's 28'..

Ok so the guy who has investigated, arrested and prosecuted countless gun crimes. Is very familiar with how criminal buy sell and obtain guns and usually from where and obviously very familiar with guns and their functions. Been through countless classes on mass shootings is the least qualified to have an opinion?

Meh I have that same freedom here. Funny thing is, you are saying it on Canadian servers, which are subject to Canadian jurisdiction. Best part is, you aren't smart enough to understand the irony.

There wasn't anything left to prosecute...Billy did it all himself. His kids are 2 of the many that are sacrificed at the altar of the 2nd Amendment. So much for that protecting of their freedom and liberty you like to talk about. As a country you have fundamentally failed to do so.

Or I have the drop on them. That’s the point. I have that right…and ability.

Yeah. He and all the MAGA crowd are cheering on Trumpty Dumpty as he takes away liberty and freedom from everyone else. They can't conceive that it could happen to THEM. But it will. Despots usually end up fearing everyone. I think Trumpty Dumpty, along with Elmo and the rest are FAAAAAAAAR more likely to try to take all the guns away than Obama, Biden and Harris put together. But he won't believe it.

Dude — I AM the line. I’m like the concrete rebound hammer of SC Wendy P.

So Scumbag Gaetz, (R, and a favorite of Trump) sought a restraining order today against the House Ethics Committee in an effort to halt the panel's release of its final report summarizing his gross moral turpitude. Appears to be moot.

This is as an interesting picture from reddit. The police detail for guy who killed a billionaire versus guy who killed 4 college students

CEOs of wealthy corporations can buy elections in Russia, the USA, etc. At that level, there is little moral or economic difference between a Russian oligarch and a North American oligarch.

Whatever you do, do NOT ever watch the Incredibles! In that woke movie, Bob Parr (former superhero) works for an evil CEO, Gilbert Huph, who demands he deny claims to all the covered people in his medical insurance company, Insuricare. In one scene Parr is talking to an elderly woman who is on a fixed income and cannot afford her pills unless Insuricare covers them. He grants her claim. Huph yells at him for handing out money for their claims. In a second scene, Parr is talking to elderly claimants, telling them the loopholes they can use to get their claims granted. Huph again comes out, has Parr come into his office and starts screaming at Parr for working for the wrong people. He should be working for Huph, not those suckers who have Insuricare coverage! Huph starts to threaten Parr with being fired, but before he can finish his sentence, Parr grabs him by the neck and throws him through a wall. Huph lands motionless on the floor. In the next scene Huph is in intensive care with a broken neck and Parr is fired. This is the event that begins Parr's return to being a crimefighting superhero. Can you believe they show this sort of violence to KIDS?