Hominid

I think? everyone would agree that it just an obstacle for him. Not just some game he was enjoying. I kinda think pretty much everyone has thought this, but it doesn't seem to have solved the case. I think you're wrong about that asking her part, but I'm not sure if it matters one way or the other. Right. Are you saying that Joe Blow on the street knew it would be dangerous to takeoff with stairs down even though it has been done without harming anyone? Would that be one of the doors over the wing, or the galley door, or the front entry? I think most people who like to go out of planes in the air would think it much safer to go out the rear if you're doing it at 150+ knots. But I can understand that feeling it gives you to think about doing it. Some really go for the excitement of danger. You know the plane didn't have struts coming down from the wings to hang onto while you climb out there?

Jerry, Did you look at it? Is it safe? I'm not gonna look unless someone trustworthy tells me it's safe.

I think one thing that came out in this forum once was that the people that did the initial report from NWA, and the search zone analysis, did it without benefit of input from the flight crew. You know it's hell searching back through these two threads to find something like this, but maybe some of those who were here could verify whether or not I remember it right.

eVicki, I'm afraid to look at the attachment. Will I be alright if I do it?

I would say you have a healthy, well developed brain. If anyone has an epiphany or convergence based on what we have now, I would think that anyone doesn't understand the situation. I think the little we have needs to be examined closely just in hopes of finding something that helps establish something. Keep watchin and figuring. I hope that some of what I'll be sharing will help. I suggest to factor in all reports and claims as that. There is a lot of this stuff unsupported by any other known facts. Mr. Rataczak may have said that or something like that. He may have been wrong. See the proof he offered about the claim? I think the best substantiated stuff is the plotted flight path. It could be fake or a huge mistake by our air defense forces.

They were up pretty well when the plane landed in Reno. As the plane slowed down, the stair dropped more. Eventually, it dropped low enough to scrape and spark a bit. And, unfortunately, I think that nobody has ever corraled him to talk to him about it. He was also the person seeing the pressure indications, and in control of the B hydraulics. A central figure, but all anyone wanted to talk to was the pilots and stews. I think he musta hid from reporters, and that was likely the plan of NWA or the FBI. BTW: I analyzed a pic looking up into the stairwell. The pic looked authentic of N467US right after the hijack. I think it was p/o a german language Discovery pgm. Anyway, by lightening it and having the software look for edges, one can clearly see the door at the normal control station hanging out into the aisle and casting a shadow forward onto the bulkhead. No help about actual control positions, however.

Looks like it to me. Maybe he had velcro inside? Did my earlier reply give you all you were lookin for? Also, I assume you noticed there was actually something about the airstair?

If there is anyone out there who has any interest in the airstairs, does anyone have any question or comment about the post analyzing different modes of operation, or about my post re. getting (the stairs) ready to jump?

Good job, FarFlung. You do realize though that, if "someone" says something like pressurizing a seive to 20 atmospheres, it just might be humor? A little thing I don't think you mentioned is a major reason for the pressurization other than people comfort. not just being kept at 1 atmosphere. (I hope you didn't waste too much time trying to figure out what I was getting at.) Can't we just all get along?

PEK, Just came back on today and haven't read forward, so excuse if someone has already answered your questions. You have somehow figured out who I am. Actually, never in the nuclear field. I've been a fan of Fermi, however, for his role is establishing a principle that enabled the creation of all the semiconductors. Once had an epiphany when I suddenly understood the "Fermi level." After not working with semiconductor theory for years, I'm sad to say it just went "poof." Anyway, I still have my large log-log decitrig, the pocket sized one, two of the big K&Es. Just couldn't bare to see 'em thrown out when everyone suddenly wanted those new scientific calculators. Pardon the fond memories you didn't ask for. I expect that the FBI would have taken pix of everything they thought would be significant. Who knows if they would consider control settings to be so. It's possible they might have taken someone familiar with the plane aboard before everything got all fouled up to maybe point things out to them that might be significant. They could have pix in the files. Certain special people may have seen them, and doubtless would not have recognized any significance. Part of the nature of the entire case. Another possibility is that a person might want to get the steps fixed down. I would think it would be a bit spooky having those steps trying to come back up a bit every time you took a step. With what I know now, I'd go out almost to the end to pull two ropes/cords with knots or bundles in them hard in between the upper (drive) struts and the stairwell sidewalls. This would stabilize the stair as low as it would go with my weight on it, and make it so that it would not be pushing back up against me at the instant I was bailing off. Also, the stair rebound would not come when I jumped. Not designed for the purpose. When the stairs are down, it definitely would help to stabilize against tail tipping. When the -200s came out, it was found the hard way that the plane could tip with its nose high in the air under some conditions. Counterintuitive, because the 200 is longer toward the front. It had something to do with load distribution. Anyway, airlines started requiring the aft airstair to be locked down on the 200s whether or not the stair was being used for ingress/egress. It could have been done as well on the 100s. It just wasn't needed. At hijack time, the ground crews had multiple options for the -100 series, using the control station accessible from the ground. on the right side of the plane just forward of where the lower stair pivot is. If hydraulic "B" was on and the plane had elec power, they could use a hanle and pushbutton there, just as could be done from inside the plane. This pushbutton was attached on the side of its handle. If there was no elec or B hydraulic, the could drop the stair again the same as from inside. Then, they would walk up the steps until they could reach the stair struts and would pull on or both of the struts near the "elbows" until the stairs went down as far as they would. The elbows would usually pass "over center" and the pressure would pop them up against the downstops--basically bracket on each side of the stairwell up near the ceiling. Without power, if the crew wanted to push the stair down, they used a manual handpump inside the lower control station. Some airlines at some airports did use tail jacks. In the future, the design was changed to eliminate the pushbuttons and to use a hydraulic accumulator so that the stairs would have hydraulic pressure for up to about a half hour after B hydraulics was turned off. NOTHING WILL END STAIR DISCUSSION! EVER! (maybe just here if Quade pulls the plug;-)

The pressure is basically the "static" pressure. The actual would be only a tiny bit less because of a slight vacuum being pulled by the airflow past the back. I think I have calculated the static pressure, but it's readily available and easily calculated. R99 I'm sure has done it. You can make it pretty accurated by accounting for the -12C°, almost 100% R.H. and the fact that the S.L. normalized atmospheric pressure in the area was a bit above "standard." But, the pressure is really not relevant. Reason: The guage of significance was the cabin rate of climb guage (like the transcript says). For normal rates of pressure change in the cabin, this guage responds proportional to pressure change rate. In effect, a differentiator. Basically, it is a very sensitive anaeroid barometer with a tiny (but calibrated) hole in the bellows. The pressure inside is constantly trying to adjust to the pressure outside. It responds big time to any sudden change because it doesn't have time enough to adjust in the midst of the change. Because of the normal decay and delay time, you can calculate just how sensitive it is in comparison to the cabin pressure guage. I don't remember the exact ratio, but its probably at least two orders of magnitude. So, no matter what the atmospheric pressure (for normal earthly use), suddenly increase the pressure 5% and the guage will give the same BANG. It could easily be like peggin electrical meters with to-big inputs. The closing spike was a positive pressure pulse. The climb rate meter saw that as suddenly dropping down (where atm press is greater). The guage needle would have quickly then dropped back to zero as the air that entered the bellows through the small hole leaked back out. If a perceptible opening spike were produced, the guage reaction would have been the opposite. Oscillation in the sense that technical types think would not be like either kind of pressure bump. The bump we've all heard of, for example, could have involved a very slight opposite polarity as the pulse decayed. The stair went up, producing big positive pressure, then fell back down pretty much putting the tail on the pulse. In other words, it was coming back down that ended the pulse. The stair could not have rebounded back up nearly as much as the initial rebound. To a great extent, the reason for limited time frame is the dampening in the stair struts. 377 described this to me, and I'm pretty sure that it was more that just the swoosh. My understanding was that there was a "swoosh-bump" or "swoosh-smack." I'm not sure what to make of the swoosh part. I think he said that seemed to come as the divers were actually going through the chute. But there should be no airflow going through there to block. I think he never relayed to others one thing he said to me in response to my question. This is that when he got through the chute and right at the airstream, he was "smacked." I think the final part of the sound for each jumper is a sonic wave bouncing off the jumper. Like whack someone across the back or chest/stomach with something of the same frontal area. Peoples not aware of all the possibilities could mistake one event for "the" event. From what I've seen it appears that the analysts were in uncharted waters. I've seen such stuff before where mistakes were made only because of polarity.

it'll be a few minutes

That's really mean. How can I be mean to you with you being proud American? Your source is really bad if it tell you I'm not.

Sure, Georger. Still just the same. We would have to know how much the stair fell, and how fast, when kicked by the pneumatic actuators. I could estimate the kicks from the pressure and the volumes, by scaling, but would have no idea what the resistance by the stair would be. We'd need not only weight of the stairs, but how much is used up in shearing the lugs and shoving the air and breaking any hangup. Basically, though, the reason for the bump would be the same as for the one we know of. Just opposite direction. The only reason I mentioned the possibility is that if anyone is ever able to get access to info from the flight data recorder, knowing of such possibilities could help in correlating events. If you never found the source of the chart you asked once about, I have a couple of possibilities.

She was the conduit through which he got the instructions. She had never dropped the stairs in the same way before. She didn't understand why the instructions were as they were. She gave him the instructions she had been given to pass to him. She left. He dropped the stair. (source: Hominid)

Look at the transcript. There are a few words between.

The transcripts show there was no concern by referring to the procedure that was sent out to 305 on how to get the stairs down. The transcripts did not show that. Read it all. Pay attention. Cross-check. Make a copy. Annotate it. Stop picking out some little detail that seems somehow to be about what you want to bash. The procedure is the evidence that there was a concern and that just doing it the simple way the stew normally did was not good enough.

Smokin, Please don't worry about "offense." Asking a sensible question is always in order. If someone takes offense to such, I say "tough." I'll try to explain the significance from my perspective. I'm stricken with huge curiosity about the case. It has many technical aspects. But what "media" has generally covered about the case is the human interest, the Robin Hood, etc. If a reporter ever got some useful technical information from one of the participants (like Bill Rataczak), the reporter would ignore it and go for something people will like. Or, would incorrectly write what the source said. So the case is characterized by very few real pieces of evidence, very few real facts, huge amounts of misinformation, etc. Sounds like a real challenge, right? That's why I'm interested in the case. It is a super mystery. With the sparsity of evidence, I think if would be a really fun thing just to be part of solving it. I don't care if I solve it. I would just as soon give a bit of info to someone who then is able to use it to get somewhere on the case. It may sound a bit like Hollywood, but I believe that except for the possibility of someone stumbling over Dan's body the best chances of getting something done on the case lie in closely examining everything we can about the case. It could lead us to new evidence. Or it could help us see the significance of something already before us. One thing I'm trying to do is have people have a good feel for what Dan was likely to have been doing before he jumped. It could tell something about how long he was having to prepare, for example. After studying the airstairs a lot, I had a breakthrough first when I acquired a manual of the right time frame, then when 377 showed me info of more detail in his manual. The bottom line about the airstair is that the time Dan getting them down tells nothing about his knowledge. There's been much discussion about that, and it should stop being an issue. There is no way he dropped the stairs in the way flight crews normally did it. Anyone, the best trained crew or the designers, could have had the same difficulties. The "end run" is for as many as possible to understand just one little part of the little world Dan was in that night as he was anticipating a jump. A psychological look could be good as well. Anything we understand about what was going on there could be the little puzzle piece that is missing. You mentioned the "pressure drop." I assume you mean the "pressure bump." What the crew figured they felt when Dan left the stairs? The discussion does relate to that. The fact is that the stair could not have rebounded and produced that bump unless the stair was rather free to flap. The only way that could be, is if the normal control handle were left in the UP position. Numerous sources about the stairs say that normal unpowered drop of the stairs is slow (as they suck hydraulic fluid out of the reservoir) and that the stairs are held down by the hydraulic fluid even if the hydraulic power is not applied. 377's manual makes clear to anyone with hydraulic system knowledge/experience why that is the case. Such diagrams are like words to engineers and technicians. Hope this helps

It was the source as to how she was to have been involved. What one thinks might happen a minute from now does not always come to be. This is not "secret" to most. Look at transcript. Stew is with us. ..... Now have aft stair light.

Statements of prior intent. Nothing at all about what really happened. Where was she when the got the lite?

Smokin, That's obviously an assumption based on relevant knowledge and intelligence.

My first comment was about your first use of "he". That was a transmission from "(GC)" = ground control. Al was using their radio. There are several instances of something Al said being attributed to "GC."

The normal "manual drop" leaves the stairs down as far as they get from whatever load they're given. From there, they are not able to come back up on their own. Check valve prevents the reverse flow. When the stairs normally "free fell" they really weren't "free." They came down a bit slow because they were sucking hydraulic out of the reservoir as they fell.

Are you high right now? You can be honest. I doubt the cops are monitoring you while you're posting here. Or is that humor? Actually, I'm so good at figuring gibberish out that I think I know sorta what ya must be sayin. Maybe I can help. If Dan put the handle at DOWN, the whole thing about pressurizing in hopes of pushing the stairs down would be unnecessary. The most Dan woulda had to do is put his hands on the handrails and step out onto the stairs maybe three or four steps. Stairs woulda been down for him to use and woulda stayed just as far down all the way until the crew disobeyed his orders to get them back up, or until the plane tore up its rear landing probably around Red Bluff since the stairs hanging down the extra amount woulda made them burn more fuel. Yes, assume the handle is put to DOWN if you want the crew dead.

And why do you assume that "he" was Cooper? The (GC) was often "Al" because the person hearing the comms couldn't always tell who he was hearing. The "(GC)" was Al telling someone else around there (like ARTCC) that "he" the pilot wanted to get up. Nobody said who "he" was. Like, "the guy in back." (source: Hominid) They probably did level off because Coop wanted to get the stairs down. That doesn't mean he requested it. It's very likely the crew just wanted to be able to concentrate on that little chore. I'll try to figure out what the rest means and get back to ya.