obelixtim

They are unacceptable when its me that has to pick up the pieces, and then explain what happened to the media..... It gets quite difficult trying to defend skydiving as a sport when some fool has cocked it up..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

There are some pretty nice people out there who will take the time with you when you are inexperienced.....however, many inexperienced jumpers feel intimidated by people who are more experienced......but not all jumpers are like that....it sounds like Walt is an OK guy.....I'm sure his halo is a little more shiny right now.... Don't be shy!!!. Most times you just have to have the courage to approach people.......usually its pretty obvious who the good guys and gals are..... Of course skydiving has its fair share of arrogant arses and egotrippers who look at students and low timers like they are a piece of dogshit......Personally I just love taking the piss out of them.....and I've done it to a few......I can't stand those types.......not real skydivers in my mind.... Anyway, to answer your question...... Flat turn: The canopy remains parallel to the ground throughout the turn....(I'm talking about a student canopy now, but the principle is generally the same whatever canopy you have)...usually by pulling both toggles down together to about half brakes, then letting one toggle up slightly while simultaneously pulling a little more on the opposite toggle......the turn should be gentle and feel quite smooth....and loss of altitude is minimal.... Stall turn: The canopy drops out of the sky.....Haul both brakes right down together till the canopy stalls....(it rocks back behind you a little and feels like its gonna pull you over backwards, feels quite weird the first time you try it.). Then let one toggle all the way up quickly...the canopy will turn you quite violently (by comparison to a flat turn) and drop out of the sky.....not to be used close to the ground.....often used in CRW when a jumper needs to get down quick, but stay close to the formation...as in rotations..... These manoevres should be practised by ALL jumpers up high until you develop an awareness of the flight characteristics of your canopy......but be sure to make sure you have clear airspace around and below you, and it definitly helps to let any others who may be going out the door with you know your intentions..... Giving your canopy a good workout will teach you a lot about how a parachute flies, and give you confidence in it and yourself..... I would suggest you can play with the canopy like that for a couple of thousand feet, but probably at 1000 feet its time to switch on to landing mode.....its not a good idea to do radical manoevres down lower than that, because 1: you should be sussing out a safe landing area (not necessarily the DZ either if you can't make it for some reason), and 2: radical input is not smart if you are in the zone where your AAD might come into play.....(I've seen an AAD fire in this scenario), and two canopies out at this point makes things interesting to say the least..... But up high, don't be afraid to give that canopy a damn good thrashing!!!. I encourage my jumpers to give it heaps up high....they love it......its all good stuff..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I'm not having a go at Walt, and I'm sure he is everything you say he is......I think we both have the welfare of other jumpers at heart....because their welfare is in our own interests as well...... I just think we disagreed slightly on exactly whether training first jumpers to do flat turns under canopy is expecting too much from them.....so the disagreement was slightly more about the timing of the training...until he agreed with me..... But I guess I did poke a stick into his cage a little....but only a little bit!!!. I'm a big fan of teaching people everything they need to know to survive.....but not all at once.... The best advice I can give to jumpers from jump number one is to keep their brain switched on and think and anticipate things.......for every second of the jump....because you can get bitten any time, and with any amount of experience..... I've done my fair share of dumb things on jumps, but luckily, have always managed to get away without injuries...........to date..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

1: 1974, 20 years old. 2: Drunken bet. 3: With 3 friends who were part of the bet. 4.: Family didn't know anything about it. 5: The smell of avgas on power off. 6: Felt totally alive, 10 foot tall, and bulletproof. My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I answered that in my second sentence...when they transition off student canopies onto their own gear...probably around 20 -30 jumps..... By that stage they will have had some experience of landing a canopy, and will presumably be going to smaller faster canopies, where they will have to learn some new things anyway.....plus they will be jumping those canopies or smaller for quite a while.... ...as long as they don't bash themselves into the ground.... Students should learn basic skills and good habits, they it is much easier to refine their basic knowledge when they are through over amping about the initial skydives...... Its bloody hard to teach good habits if a person has already developed the bad ones..... Experienced jumpers have a big part to play...not least with the attitude and EXAMPLE they set.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I agree with you, but they should only be taught these skills when they have the experience and skills to handle them..... For first jumpers though, and during their early career, it needs to be simple.....probably the best time would be when transiting off student gear onto their own.... And I never said we should not teach them how to avoid obstacles.....just they should be taught to recognise and avoid them early.....and all it should take is a small early toggle input...... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Maybe I need to clarify things a little.... I was speaking in very general terms, but my comment was more aimed at inexperienced jumpers who tend to copy more experienced jumpers, but without the skills necessary to execute the manouevre safely....and that inevitably leads to trouble.... You may be another one of those invincible skydivers Walt ( I've seen quite a few of them).... but Joe Junior Jumper who watches you do it and tries it himself, may not get away with it..... A huge number of accidents, fatalities and injuries these days are a result of contact with the ground as a result of an inappropriate contol input.....and the victims are often people of high experience who should know better.... That suggests to me that the whole landing part of training (generally) could do with some serious attention.....hell, a lot of canopy control landing is over in 30 seconds...."listen to the radio".... Off the radio.....sorry buddy, you're on your own..... An earlier poster suggested that the dangers of turning close to the ground should be part of first jump training. I agree and was merely pointing out that it is part of my canopy control training....but I also put a lot of emphasis on keeping a lookout and preparing for landing early...at 1000 feet they should begin preparations for landing (i.e. looking and selecting a safe area to land), at 500 feet they need to be tuned in to it totally..... The important thing for them to understand is to land safely, wherever that may be......but if they do get into a tight situation they must not freak out but land under control..... In short they should never get into a sticky situation in the first place, but if they do, a normal landing flare, under control, will 9 times out of 10 see them walk away OK, or at least minimise any damage to themselves....The 292 sq feet student canopy saves a lot of grief....and is forgiving when landed correctly...... I do NOT want my students trying avoidance manoeuvres close to the ground, apart from minor toggle inputs (maybe 5 degrees at a time). None of my first jumpers has ever landed in a turn, very few have ever landed on an obstacle, and none have injured themselves in this manner, and this goes for the many who have progressed a long way in skydiving..... I think that this proves the point that better canopy control should be a feature of first jump training...the jump isn't over till one is safely on the ground, and its the last half inch of the jump that can hurt the most. Having to teach students how to flat turn is, to my mind, an admission that you haven't taught them avoidance techniques properly in the first place, and there are too many variables to make it foolproof.....lots of fools out there..... And over egging the pudding when it comes to outlining the consequences of a stupid landing manoeuvre is harmless, if it gives them a healthy respect for the hard hard ground..... Nothing wrong with a bit of healthy fear..... But I guess the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy are pretty invincible....Santa is on automatic pilot..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

You may be right, for you, but my contention is simply if you have to be doing 90 degree turns at the last second then you've either had your brain switched off, your eyes shut tight, or both...... Harvesters arn't that common, and usually they are big and brightly coloured..... You shouldn't be suddenly coming upon them, and they don't jump out of the trees to get you.... A 5 degree turn 50 metres before an isolated obstacle should see you miss it easily..... I wouldn't advocated anyone teaching a student to make flat turns close to the ground...theuy have too much other stuff to think about when learning, and their inexperience will mean they'll screw it up at least once....And once is all it takes.... But good practices learned while a student will stay with them for life..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Every first jumper I've ever trained has had it drilled into their head that turns close to the ground WILLl result in injury.....they must be flying straight on touchdown, under control.....even if it means hitting an obstacle.....and being under control is most important....it gives you time to prepare for the landing.... Of the 10,000 + first jumpers I've trained, I've never had one injure themself landing in a turn.... In a turn, the parachute is not acting as a parachute, it is falling out of the sky.... To the person who states flat turns are OK.....you just keep tryig them then...I guarantee you'll get a ride in an ambulance at some stage.... Ignore that advice.... Its a dumb thing to say, because it only takes the smallest misjudgement while doing a turn (or turbulence for instance)....and you will be bitten for certain..... Better not to go there in the first place.... You need to be thinking about your landing before you do it, not during it.... Be aware...with altitude up your sleeve.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Had a mate who dreamed he was eating a giant marshmallow..... Then he woke up and discovered his pillow was gone.......... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Way to go Megan...... Thats basically the point I was making..... Hospitals are full of doctors......and I reckon they are very dangerous places to be..... Lots of people die in hospitals..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Nah no way....forget it..... Is the 170lbs the body weight or the exit weight?....don't forget to add the weight of the rig.... Canopy too small and too fast, jumper too inexperienced, elevation too high...... No need to take a risk.. Don't you have a bigger canopy?.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Was that the considered opinion of an aviation medical specialist?. While I respect the opinion of a doctor in medical matters....they arn't parachuting experts by any means.... As an instructor I have discovered over the years that many qualified doctors have little idea about skydiving, they have a picture of paratroopers going in to battle inWW2 with bullets flying, risky parachutes, and body shattering landing forces.... To be fair some have probably dealt with people who have smashed temselves up in a skydiving accident. However their perceptions sometimes are far removed from the reality, and so sometimes they find it really easy to say no..... I've had elderly people in their 80's, paraplegics, terminal cancer patients, and all sorts of disabled people advised not to jump, however in NZ the final decision is always left to the individual, and all of people I've jumped with have jumped and had no problems at all...some have done multiple jumps..... However as an instructor I have the real final say in this situation and I have actually refused to allow people to jump when in my considered opinion they are not up to it..... Not pushing you to consider a second opinion......but just wondering if you've explored all the options.....a medical specialist who is also a skydiver.....thats who would be best to talk to if possible.... Any skydiving quacks out there???.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Saw an idiot one cold day take a pair of welding gauntlets into the plane (he had no other gloves).....we were only going up to 4 grand for a short freefall...... This was in the days of 1 1/2 shot capewells, when you needed your fingers even more than today.... He might as well have put on a pair of boxing gloves..... Just before exit I took them off him and gave him a slap around the helmet with them.... Some people have the brains of a chocolate fish..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Well there you go.......all it took was a bit of talk to clear up a misunderstanding..... Hell.....wars have started through lack of talk and misunderstandings..... Wasn't it Winston Churchill who said something about how jaw jaw is better than war war..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Yeah, I was aware thats what he was doing......just bluntly pointing out something he probably already learned.......as he said......but more for the benefit of others who might be reading this post.... I've found in skydiving if you are too subtle the message is often not taken seriously..... Probably my major point is that inexperienced jumpers shouldn't just expect others to take care of them, they need to take the initiative to find out things....because ignorance is not an excuse, and the consequences are painful....and no skydiver, no matter what their age and experience is too old to learn lessons...... But you knew that......right!!!.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

If you want to be a skydiver its up to you to find out all these "unknowns" before you get in the aeroplane, otherwise you have no business going up.... If you don't know something, find out..... A difference of 114 metres in landing altitude is insignificant.....warm or hot temperatures are far more of an issue than cold temperatures..... Unless your nuts fall off......... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I really fail to see why you can't just front up to him and sort it out properly face to face..... He may not agree, and may not like you even, but so what!!!!. At least you've cleared the air and both of you will then know exactly where you stand...... They way you're dealing with it now isn't working, so what have you got to lose..... It sounds like he might be a bit of an idiot if your story about his verbal diarrhoea on the radio is true, but reading about your "problem" and methods of handling it, it all seems rather pathetic to me..... Just sort it out once and for all and quit being such a wimp....... If you could spend a bit more time skydiving you wouldn't have time to worry about all this other bullshit...... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Fair enough, thanks for your reply....I appreciate your reasoning, and I also appreciate your willingness to acknowledge another point of view.....I also appreciate your not going down my throat about being a little abrupt and rude to you...I apologise if thats how I came across......but sometimes a point has to be made rather bluntly to convey its importance.... Anyway, its a good illustration of how information can be slightly distorted.....it happens all the time, and not just to you....often to people with a lot of jump experience who should know better than to perpetuate myths...... Jump numbers alone don't always convey accurately an in depth knowledge of the sport.... Better to look at the time someone has been in the sport.....the old dinosaurs usually are the most accurate, mainly because they've been there, done that.....got the T shirt......and deserve to have their point of view heard...... Its irritating though, to see people trying to reinvent the wheel, or try something that has been discredited many moons ago.....often at painful cost to some individual....and there are plenty of flash Harry's who try to do just that, then take offence when taken to task.... Your attitude impresses me as a person who is willing to take on board a little criticism.....there are not too many people like that in skydiving...believe me..... You'll do OK.......and learn lots with that approach.... Blue skies...... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The difference between opening shock at 10,000 feet and 1,000 feet is insignificant. When in doubt whip out your reserve ... the higher the better. For example, during my last reserve ride, I "saddled out" at 3,000 feet. That gave me lots of time to follow my main and freebag. Are you sure? I've read many a thread where the dangers of a terminal reserve deployment at high altitudes have been warned against. Not high-speed premature deployments while freeflying, I'm talking about normal belly-to-earth deployments that ended in broken lines and a mess of other complications due to altitude. I'll do a search to try and find the threads I'm talking about. Terminal deployments while freeflying could result in broken lines and blown up canopies. Terminal deployments of a reserve in a belly to earth normal deployment would VERY RARELY result in damage to anything..... Your search for threads about this situation will, I'm sure find very little. As you are a skydiver with limited experience, I think you should refrain from posting this nonsense on a forum where people with limited experience like yourself could possibly believe this stuff, departing from correct emergency procedures, and killing themselves. Emergency procedures have evolved over many years as the result of often bitter experience..... Instructors teach these procedures world wide, and they have been proven correct in 99.9% of the situations that have arisen. Getting away from a CRW wrap is probably the only time you would make a short delay after cutting away, but you normally have extra altitude up your sleeve to start with. The correct procedure is to cut away and immediately pull the reserve..... If you really don't know what you are talking about it is better to say nothing. Don't post rumour or myth. Because some poor sap is likely to believe it..... And die....... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

No way Jose.....your reserve is packed in a freebag and has a slider....so the altitude you deploy at is pretty irrelevant in an emergency situation.....as long as its high enough to survive.... Once you've chopped that main, get the reserve out.....losing gear is irrelevant....as is a slightly harder reserve opening..... Plenty of people who now live in the cemetery delayed after chopping..... Your little signature line sums your post up quite nicely.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Defend the instructor???.... Well I don't know about that....from what he said, he's done his first jump, then number 2 and 3 doing dummy ripcord pulls....poorly.....then freefall....on his 4th jump.... Sounds a bit fishy to me.....and it sounds like the instructor who was there didn't have much of an idea about instructing.... Most S/L programmes I've heard of stipulate a minimum of 5 S/L jumps with at least 2 successful dummy pulls, the last within 24 hours of first freefall.... It seems to me the instructor, as well as being a crap instructor, has failed to follow a programme that is pretty common all over the world.... Give up on that instructor buddy......but keep jumping and follow the good advice you've been given by a few of the previous posters.... Go for it!!!. My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I met Bill in 1977 when he came down to NZ with craig Fronk, they stayed at my place for a few days.....I cooked a roast leg of lamb for dinner one night and he ate the whole thing himself.....he loved that stuff.....made me go and get him another one for the next night as well..... Met him again in 1992 in China...he recognised me right away.....looked a little ragged round the edges back then.....but still the same bloke....party animal from hell.... He was a legend and backed it up with an attitude and ability to make friends that couldn't be matched. One of lifes gems for sure. Rest easy old pal....we'll see you on the other side one of these days..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

You talk way too much on your radio....a particular problem if your students are drawn from different countries or their ears have popped....its real easy for students to get confused......The least amount you have to say is the best..... The first point of my training is that all first jumpers are trained to open, fly, and land the canopy as if they have no radio at all...then if the radio doesn´t work for whatever reason its not a problem..if it does its a bonus....it involves a reasonably simple bit of canopy control training....I tell them they'll have a radio but its important they can do the job without one....in case it doesn't work (in fact they are reliable now but weren't always so). A vocab of about 10 - 15 words total,are all that is necessary, and leaves little room for misinterpretation....thus making it safer.....If you brief your students beforehand as to what they are going to hear then you need say very little.....for example..."Left 90" means a left turn of 90 degrees...."left 360" is a 360 left turn.....simple....My radio talk is as follows... "Fred".....(I always use names....I know what colour canopy each student is on if there is a change in jump order in the plane).... "Fred, good canopy...360 left".....if he follows I know he can hear me.....(this is after he has done his checks and released brakes).... "Fred have some fun"...(he is allowed to have a play around with his toggles). During the flight I leave him alone if he is doing OK...he´s actually working his way back towards the DZ....a point on the ground where I want him to be at 1000 feet AGL.....but if I have to say anything it´ll be..."Fred...straight ahead, or Fred 90 right, straight ahead.....or Fred....go to 500 foot point" (this is a pre arranged point on the ground where I want them to be at 500 feet, turning into wind)..... At 1000 feet its "Fred, no more playing, go to 500 foot point"..... At 500 feet (or if they are where I can land them safely, its) "Fred turn into wind......toggles up".......then as they come in to land.....its.... "toggles up.....up ...up......and down down down"............ In the event of a mal on opening its quite simple "Fred, you have a problem...Look... Grab....Pull...." (SOS system). I've had students land perfectly safely with no radio talk at all.....90% of my students are off radio by jump number 4.....They enjoy being free of it, and their self confidence develops faster.....Its a lot less hassle for me as well......and it gives them time under canopy to get their brains working without someone ranting on in their ear all the time.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

PM'd you, but just thought I'd point out that in 100 years time we are both gonna be equally dead, and how and when it happened will be unimportant and totally irrelevant........... Can't see the point of worrying about it now...............I'm indifferent in fact, because its a stone cold certainty.......... A beer is of minor significance in the big scheme of things...........the reaper is always lurking..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....