obelixtim

Arrrrrgggghh!!!!!!.....NO, NO, NO, NO, NO!!!!!!..... There is no point being dead on the deck with your reserve still packed.....its been done before.....lots of times.... There is a very good reason why people are trained from the start of their jump careers to carry out their reserve procedures in a certain way....and this is pretty much standard throughout the skydiving world....... All these procedures, and the equipment that has evolved over 50 years of sport skydiving are based on experience......and experience tells us this is the best way to deal with nearly all situations that can arise.....We have experience of most types of malfunction...including entanglements with main parachutes..... Accident and fatality reports are full of the stories of people who tried to second guess ESTABLISHED procedures.......and didn't make it.... Don't try to reinvent the wheel......many skydiving brains have spent a lot of time developing our systems and procedures.....and your scenario has been thought through and considered, AT length.... Your time would be better spent working your risers to make sure there is no "setting" of the webbing, deploying in a stable position, and sticking with your basic emergency training..... Remember...its a human who programmes, switches on, and maintains your "computer"..... Its a BACKUP device....no more....and no less..... Your "entanglement" scenario is EXACTLY why the freebag on your reserve was invented.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

No....but not many want to do more than 5 or 6 per day anyway.....but if they can handle it I don't have a problem with that.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Yes you can, because the "9" shaped pin isn't actually attached to the r/c, so the r/c can come free.....it has a loop at the end of it.... Years ago a few bright sparks decided to put ripcord stops on their main ripcords to prevent them getting lost...basically a rubber band wrappe around the cable above the top pin...the r/c could not be pulled all the way out of the housing...... After a couple of fatals where the reserve pilot chute was found entangled with the ripcord it was apparent that a new way to kill yourself had been invented........ripcord stops went out of fashion rather fast...a lost r/c was preferable to a reserve horseshoe.......(this was mostly on F&A gear)... But its still a bad idea to be attached to a lump of metal by 2 or 3 feet of cable with a handle flapping around on it....... If you drop the handle, put your feet together and use your two big toes as a "gunsight" to look straight down.....make a note of some feature on the ground below you...and use that as a starting point for a search......promising beer is a good way to get a few helpers to assist....and if the ground is reasonably clear...9 times out of 10 you'll find it..... I've found heaps of student r/c's because I've spotted the load.......and I always have a reference point on the ground as a start point.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Yeah man......but what tipped you off??? My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I limit my jumpers to 5 jumps a day absolute max.....but thats pretty tough on the body and brain until you get used to it.......if you can do 3 jumps per day that would be a pretty fair day.....because the learning curve will peak and then begin to decline due to fatigue etc...... Every individual progresses at their own rate...so don't compare yourself to anyone else except in a general sense......most student programmes are based on the rate of progress of an average student....so its not a race...there's time to get it right......but don't get down if a jump doesn't go exactly as planned first time......its a rare person who gets it perfect every time..... And remember not to get too intense.....Rome wasn't built in a day.....its meant to be FUN...and if you are having a good time you will be a lot more relaxed.......and THATS the key to the whole experience....... Set yourself small easy targets and you'll achieve them more easily.....and focus on each task as it comes on each jump...... Remember that every jumper you come across...even your instructor....was once a first jumper like you..so they'll understand where you're coming from....so don't be afraid to ask if you arn't sure what to do......when you get in the plane you should know exactly what you are going to do and HOW to do it..... Practise on the ground is free...so do lots of it.........you'll have plenty of time to practise......use it...... Stick to one person for advice (should always be your instructor) because there are lots of people who will give you a slightly different perspective on how to achieve a particular task...they're all correct...but it sometimes can be confusing when you are new..... Just go for it...... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

The BPA dinosaur rolls on.......unbelievable.....they make something illegal that is common practice in many countries of the world.... What a joke...but typical.....I wonder why they bother allowing skydiving to happen at all....Dolts.....the lot of them.... There are plenty of places where handicam is done safely AND well...... I'd like to see the reasoning behind a ban.....I suppose they should ban hand and wrist mounted altimeters next..... What a pack of cretins....... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Certified??????.......Are you insane????..... Try under "psychiatry" in the yellow pages...... (Sorry...just couldn't resist...) Seriously.....just go for it....your training may vary a little, depending on where you go....but the important thing is to have enough funds to hammer it when you are at the DZ......one jump per day is a fairly slow way to do it...... Find a full time DZ and try to go on a week day.....its slightly less busy than the weekend... You'll be renting equipment until you at least get your "A" licence.....so get that out of the way first, then think about gear...... Welcome to the sport....good luck... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Well said Hooky....... I think there's more than a few on this board who are just wind up merchants (WUMS) looking for a bite.....I'm tired of them so I've almost given up responding.......got better things to do..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

So what are the "weak" spots in the proposal that you see????........Lets see them.... As for the people asking for "evidence" that a problem exists before you think a BSR is necessary. I think we've all witnessed enough REPEATED incidents on our own DZ's to realise that there is a definite problem.....each of our DZ's are in effect a small VALID sample of all the DZ's in the country......so I think we can quite safely say the problem is universal.....even though concrete figures arn't available..... For every jumper who hammers in and gets carted off to hospital or the morgue, there would be another 10 who bounced off the ground hard and been lucky to walk away with lumps and bruises and a slightly different attitude to the whole deal.....I've drunk a fair bit of their beer over the years....... In fact here's a statement that'll generate a few squeals I bet.....but I'll make it anyway...... It would be very rare to find ANYONE who jumps a pocket rocket who didn't blow at least one landing, before they started showing a bit more respect towards its potential to injure them......they've learnt a lesson early on.... Thats usually what it takes.....a bit of a shakeup..... that they didn't suffer any major injury would be due more to good luck than skill...... I've always been one who's managed to walk away......but I've hit hard on a number of jumps, (but not while swooping.....I'm a bit more cautious after a few test jumps in the early days of ZP canopies)......... Be an interesting little exercise to see how many in this discussion could have used a bit more education from the start......although we understand a hell of a lot more about the problem than we did even 10 years ago....making the failure to act on it even more inexcusable........we really don't need more data......we need solutions..... But I'm starting to get tired of this argument....I'm convinced already.......don't feel like justifying my position any more to blind sceptics.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Hi Ian....in answer to your question..... On my DZ I'm there fulltime so its relatively easy for me to control who does what....and after being part of a CRW team in 1991 that switched to 92 sq ft 9 cell ZP canopies in an attempt to do even faster rotations.....we quickly found out the potential these canopies had for great rotation times, but also serious landing injury...... Did a lot of thinking and discussing (being in a team was really helpful, because we were all different weights and sizes) we came up with our own ideas that basically go along with the current proposals. The swooping phenomenon didn't really come along as a serious issue amongst the general skydiving population for a few years after that....but I already had a head start in terms of experience and the like, so I was able to warn all my jumpers of some of the pitfalls....I was lucky because no one on my DZ challenged me..... Problems only came with visiting jumpers, but I solved that by requiring them to be briefed by myself or one of my senior DZSO's if I was away....... My DZ is 1300 ft above sea level....so a good way to start was to ask a question along the lines of...."have you adjusted your altimeter back to ground level?......and, if so what does that mean? ( for landing)." Often, getting a blank look in reply told me all I needed to know......and I briefed accordingly...... "Spotting the dolt" became quite easy....young, loud, inexperienced, latest gear, wanting to impress someone.... Despite this, I did have a spate of crash and burns at one stage.......no fatals but a couple of femurs and lots of bruises and scrapes....... I realised this was a result of showing off......so I created a swooping zone about 500 metres from the main landing area......and the injury rate went right down to zero.....because the part time swooper showoffs had no audience to impress....and they were too lazy to walk......also kept them away from Tandems and Students.... We didn't have any formal guidelines to use, so I just relied on experience and common sense.....and most people were OK with that.....because on my DZ my word was law.....anyone who didn't agree took the long walk off the short plank..... The accident rate DEFINITLY dropped with some basic DZ rules in place.... But I'm told on this board by a few that I have no basis for my views.......oh well..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Best get him to fill out a fatality report as well...just in case......nothing like being prepared.... .....Or......dig a hole on the DZ and tell him thats where you're gonna put all the bits...... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I agree with hooknswoop.....you are arguing for the sake of argument.......but your contribution to solving the problem seems to be zero....... Its time for positive action, we've had enough hot air...... A BSR WILL have a positive effect on the accident rate.....no question about that.....but it will take some time after its introduction before we see meaningful statistics on a national/international scale......thats how it goes in a sport like ours.......as you may find out if you stick around long enough to find out...... The rest of us will still be involved.....and we'll notice results fairly soon....because we can compare events on our DZ's with previous experience..... Thats what experience teaches us...... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I've been quite happy with the job for 25 years now......"having the power" was not an egocentric statement at all........ its just a simple fact..........a statement to reinforce the fact that ALL DZO's have this power, and can choose to use it or not, in anyway they like....... Arguing till you're blue in the face about "your" "rights" with a DZO will not cut any ice with them.....and is not the way to persuade them to bend to your wants.....after all they don't owe you anything..... Just warning about possible negative effects of refusing to accept that an improvement in the accident rate is necessary.....the proposals here are a good way to start.... To others who suggest setting up their own DZ's, go for it.......and good luck.....you'll need it...... hhh My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Well for you nit picking nay sayers, I have a real simple answer( for me), as a DZO who likes to give every jumper the freedom to enjoy themselves to the max......unless they threaten my (and others) livelihood and peace of mind...... I'll just ban swooping from my DZ.....from anyone I don't know or clear.....(yes, I have the power!!!) I don't need your money.... I don't need the hassle.... I don't need the arguments.... I don't need the bad PR from your accident.... Don't need the paperwork..... Don't need to justify my decision.....to anyone.... Simple.........and permanent....... I'll let you worry about finding another place to jump...... If thats OK with you....of course..... Why you no listen????....... I know if I give you enough rope you'll end up hanging yourselves......job done!!!!.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

The "Drink till you Drop Zone"..... The "Jump 'n' Gibberer".......(skydivers tendency to rave on about skydiving...especially after first jump and a few beers) The Bum Spot.......(a bit far from the DZ arn't you???) My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Well in the absence of anything else, and a recognition that there is a problem, at least its a start.....might not be perfect, and we won't really know how effective it is until its given time to work.....or not.....but there's been a lot of talk about it for a number of years.....at some point in time there has to be some action...... Its a basic benchmark which at least lets everyone know where the starting point is, and eliminates a lot of confusion...which only perpetuates the problem..... And its not set in stone.....it can be modified or adjusted at a later date if necessary....and most likely will......fresh ideas are not automatically ignored, because things change.... Skydiving has always been like that.... Most new skydiving disciplines have evolved slowly, with quite a bit of trial and error....but eventually things work out OK.....the rules are designed to cater for the largest number of people, and there will always be individuals who don't "fit" the solution.....thats life..... You new guys will in the future be confronted with new dilemmas that you'll need to solve......and when there is nothing to base a solution on, you'll find it quite a difficult process........ Its a challenge......not an imposition....regard it as such.......... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Ah....the ignorance of the selfish generation......me me me me me.....its all about self..... Listen up mate.....most people bounce on good canopies because they do stupid things low down without leaving themselves any margin for error..... We all want to have fun, but there are limits, from the time you begin your 1st jump training, till you do 100, 1000, 10000 jumps.....no one is "free" to do everything they want without restriction.....life just ain't like that.....for anyone..... I've never had "fun" dealing with death and injury, because its MY job AND responsibility to prevent that happening.....and it sure does spoil my day, week, month or year even..... Most of the "canopy Nazi's" are jumpers who have as much right to enjoy their skydiving as you do, however part of their responsibilities involve keeping people safe on the DZ, failure to do that means that ultimately, DZ's would be forced to close. Operating a DZ means complying with a myriad of laws, all of which are imposed by outside agencies.....CAA, State, and Federal laws......and DZ's don't just exist by accident.......it is damn hard work, and it never ends.......failure to comply means shutdown...... Where are you gonna jump then????..... Bad PR can kill a DZ easily.....and the media just love to jump on skydiving as a source of headlines.......people don't want to come to a DZ with a bad safety record.....whether its the DZ's fault or not...... I want to protect my sport, my livelihood, and that of my 25 staff, so we can continue to enjoy, and let others enjoy our passion far into the future......also my huge investment in aircraft, equipment and facilities means a lot to me......... If you choose to threaten all that because you refuse to accept my advice or instruction, and you are stupid, irresponsible, or just plain careless, then you are not welcome at my DZ...... You want freedom to do what you want???.....go start your own DZ........ All we're trying to do is to make it happen SAFELY for everyone.....even you..... Calling concerned people "Nazis" is way out of line......and if you did it to my face, I'd punch you in the mouth...... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I'd have to agree....one of these tossers was telling me I was a softcock because I couldn't handle seeing a little bit of blood and guts on the DZ.....and because I'd taken 30 years to get 4000 odd jumps I was too old and too slow...... The arrogance is breathtaking..... But he's been around all of 2 years and knows it all....even snapped a femur already...(I had to laugh)...But even that hasn't knocked the bullshit out of him.... I guess we've all worked too hard to make jumping too easy for these guys......so its all our own fault..... But I do get a kick out of shooting them full of holes when they screw up..... Ego crushing.......a great sport.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Ah...right...I knew they'd flown from Patriot....just couldn't remember the bit about them landing....however, the effects of hypoxia from the long flight (if they were hypoxic from it) were probably still a factor, especially with the pole at 9 grand..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Goooooooooo......... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I remember the incident from when it happened.......but not all the details.......I thought they'd flown from somewhere else.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Didn't they fly to the Pole from somewhere else, a long way away, hence the hypoxia, and there was quite a different elevation between airfield and LZ......hence possible confusion over AAD's..... This incident was avoidable....the planning was deficient.......and the potential problems well known....no excuse for it.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Fine until you get some motormouth who can't shut up..........could be more of a distraction than anything else......especially if its not clear and reliable...... More of a problem than its worth I'd say... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Well, we scattered a mates ashes from the middle of a 6 way one time......so he got to skydive after he was dead...... Thats about the right time to make the last jump I reckon..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Was that Bali 1989???........I enjoyed that one to the max..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....