MartinBaker

Very cool, thanks. I contacted the F-106 Association and was told they didn't know who the pilots were. Maybe I'll give him a call.

Has anyone ever interviewed, or even identified by name, the F-106 pilot(s) who gave chase to the 727 the night of the hijacking?

Airstairs were not all that uncommon, especially on narrow body, short haul commercial airliners. Airliners so equipped, such as the 727, DC-9, and 737, often flew to/from smaller airports where wheeled stairways and/or jetways were at a premium. I'm sure the Boeings and McD's of the would have used this capability as a marketing point. Just to clarify, there were/are no airstairs on the tactical airlifters I've mentioned previously (unless you count the crew entry door at the front of the aircraft.) The cargo door(s)/ramp system is used primarily to load and unload cargo/passengers on the ground, and for cargo airdrops. While it is possible to jump from the open door/ramp in flight, paratroopers usually jump from doors on the side of the rear of the a/c specifically designed for that purpose.

Yeah, I saw the cargo handling manual but didn't bother looking at it. Hard to tell from the -9 what controls are available on the flight deck. I'll call the curator tomorrow at the museum and see if I can make an appointment to look at the flight manual. At this point I'm not sure what difference it makes if there were two or three tactical cargo a/c with that capacity, however. To me the C-7 is a far more intriguing possibility since they were US Army aircraft until being transferred to the USAF in the late 60s.

Interesting. From personal C-130 experience, I knew cargo doors/ramp can be opened/lowered in flight from the flight deck. You got me thinking about the other tactical airlifters used in SEA, particularly those involved in airdrop (cargo and personnel) missions, however. So I decided to investigate if the cargo door/ramp of either the C-123 Provider or C-7 Caribou could be lowered from the flight deck. As we can see from this page copied from the C-7 flight (-1) manual, they were operable from the cockpit. I can't find a free copy of the C-123 flight manual on line, but I'd bet the Provider flight deck crew had the same ability. That would be easy enough to confirm with a visit to the NMUSAF research library, once they start letting people in after COVID restrictions are lifted. I guess this means Cooper could have had experience on the Caribou, and/or probably the C-123, as well.

Could Cooper have been sandbagging Mucklow? Concealing his knowledge of opening the door for misdirection? In the C-130, you can open both the door and lower the ramp in flight.

Not surprised. I found this site for SAT alumni a couple years ago. I sent a few emails looking for a lead on SAT 727 crews in Laos, but got no responses. http://sat.the-beach.com/ Ever hear this story? I attended a lecture on this incident at the NMUSAF back many years ago. https://www.warhistoryonline.com/instant-articles/an-aerial-combat-first.html

I'm with you with regards to Cooper's apparent lack of preparation for survival once on the ground, assuming he made it that far. Desperation? Inexperience? Ego? Overconfidence? Who knows? Everything I've read/heard from Mucklow, however does not indicate any of those traits to me. I'm more inclined to believe he thought the whole thing through and, at least in his mind, planned for the eventualities he could face. If he survived the jump and got away, he clearly did something right The corporate family mentality of the day your father described at Boeing was very similar to what I experienced at LTV in Grand Prairie, Texas in the mid 70s. My boss there talked about "jungle drums" to describe plant gossip and rumors.

My interest in Hoover's story is it's fresh and new, at least to me. As previously stated, as written it contains factual errors and speculation, but I've yet to find a story/suspect espoused by anyone in the community that is without issues. Besides, it more reasonable than claims the Zodiac killer was Cooper and others I've heard. I'm particularly interested in the claim the brother was a RCAF test pilot named Dan. I've never put a great deal of stock in the comic book tie-ins, but if this part of Hoover's story checks out.... I thought the use of CIA backed Southern Air Transport 727s to drop cargo and personnel was well known. I know they were based in Laos, but I can't remember the name of the airfield. https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-cia-proved-that-a-boeing-727-can-perform-air-drops-1566155708

Nope. I said he had experience on the a/c. I don't believe he was a pilot, that was Hoover's position. To be an expert on an aircraft, I consider that to mean someone has a design or systems engineering level of knowledge. I don't think he had that either. I do believe he had experience on type, however, probably from SAT in Laos.

Never said he was a 727 pilot or expert.

Fair enough, believe as you wish. My opinion is based on all the sources I've read/heard, and 35 years as an aerospace engineer. I'm not here to convince anybody of anything, I have no suspect or agenda. Considering there are those in the community who think Cooper could have pulled this off with zero aviation and/or parachute experience, not sure it makes much difference if he was a rated 727 guy or not. I do find it interesting Carr "thought" Cooper didn't specify flap settings, however. You'd think he'd know that, especially if he became such good friends with which ever one of the pilots he became tight with as I've read. I've identified 35 men named "William Hoover" who've been issued pilots' licenses by the FAA. I'll wade through them to see if any of them fit the age/ratings we'd be looking for based on Hoover's treatise .

Ok, thanks for the insight and feedback. We'll have to agree to disagree relative to Cooper's 727 experience prior to the hijacking. In any event, as time permits I'm going to look into some of Hoover's claims, both about Carter/Sandness and himself.

You wouldn't need detailed military service records for the Carter brothers to back track and vet that part of Hoover's "research." My point was all you're looking for is confirmation they existed, served, and were pilots. If brother Dan died in the line of duty, I would expect that to be included in even the most basic of releasable records. As I stated upfront, there are a number of factual errors in Hoover's relating of the story. Since I too believe the "official" flight path is correct, I consider Hoover's statement about Cooper jumping near Tina Bar to be one of them. Being wrong about the flight path does not impact the possible validity of Hoover's story, however. If he survived the jump, no matter where he landed he'd still have to make it back to the "seaplane" if he flew out. To Hoover's story, whether or not there were places on the river he could have landed and tied-up/concealed the a/c are more important than how many miles he landed from it. Is it noted in the official case records that Cooper indeed requested "crew meals" as Hoover claims? If so, did the FBI make any assumptions or draw any conclusions from his use of that expression?

He's not my suspect, I was only curious if this Hoover character's story was known within the community. It would be interesting to back track on his "research," and yes a photo and/or physical description of Carter/Sandness would be a key part of such an effort. I will say I quickly found the DAL site he mentioned, and sure enough Carter/Sandness is listed in the spreadsheet of deceased Delta employees. (Why it would exist is a bit of a head scratcher, however. I didn't find a similar site for other airlines.) Interestingly, "Bill Hoover" is not in that spreadsheet, meaning (if he's real) he's either still alive or the spreadsheet (if it's real) hasn't been updated to include him among the deceased. If he's still alive, it appears he'd be in his mid 80s. Assuming he's alive and still has all his marbles, he'd make a good guest for Darren on the pocast if he could find him. I'd recommend starting with the 727 Association and the Delta Retirees Connection. There are aspects of the story I like, and others I think are at best highly speculative. If Carter/Sandness (and his brother) were alleged former USAF aircrew, it would easy to request their military records from the NMPRC. Don't know if the Canadian MoD responds to such requests. I also like the bit about the "seaplane," although I'd like to know if there are places on the river where he could land and tie-up/conceal a seaplane (more likely a floatplane) without drawing attention to himself. If anyone is interested in trying to corroborate Hoover's story, let me know. Maybe we could work together.