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The Mirage is the ultimate skydiving tool. The main and reserve pins are firmly protected and the flaps WILL NOT OPEN until YOU open them. Unlike many other so-called modern rigs whos flaps are wide open and slapping the skydiver in the back from exit to deployment! This is the rig to own for freeflying, skysurfing, freestyle, and any other demanding skydiving activity where you need total assurance of safety and performance. I just took delivery of my second tie dye G3 and I'm absolutely delighted! The Mirage comes with so many standard safety features, such as secondary riser covers, armored risers for clean cut aways, awesome bridle protection (zero exposure), and a tight BOC pouch that doesn't wear out prematurely. Another very cool feature is it's modular construction to ease field replacement of many components by your local rigger. That means if you biff in hard enough to damage your Mirage (tough to do-trust me), your rigger can most likely swap out the damaged parts quickly and have you back in the air within days instead of weeks or months! The Mirage is the best rig on the market, bar none. Yes, it's also the most expensive, but you know the old adage..."You get what you pay for." Warm Blue Skies! -Rob :)
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Currently flying a Raider220, F-111, and it is a vey good first canopy. Wing loading it at .95, i find it vey docile and forgiving. Soft opening that are on heading. Very stable in turbulant winds, but in high winds not much penatration,becuase it not being wing loaded. Having just under 300 jumps with it. Really good to learn on canopy control, not being worried about costly mistakes. Good for a jumper that is into the longevity of the sport.
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I recently got myself the standard Time Out with the flashing LED attachment. I've found the device to be a marked improvement over the basic dytter I had previously. Noise levels are loud enough to be heard in freefall, and the extra long beeping after break-off is bloody good! The LED is a wash out in daylight, and fixing it to your googles looks very inconvenient, particularly if you mount the Time out on a helmet. I wouldn't recommend paying extra for this feature unless you do a lot of night jumps.
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Awsome piece of equipment, only one problem, I had a hell hard opening the other day which caused my dytter to pop out of its plastic clip. So I must recomened to anyone buying one to use some extra zip ties or gaffer tape to fix the dytter to the helmet a bit more secure.
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I had my first reserve ride on the Raven this weekend. The canopy opened neaty and quickly. Steering input was sluggish with slow flat turns. Landing flare was bad. I buried the toggles and the canopy mushed down into a very hard landing. Performance was inferior compared to the Tempo (same size). I suggest if you choose to buy this chute go to the next size up. The landing reminded me of my T-10 days.
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The Mirage G3 is the most comfortable rig I've tried on yet. This rig was well designed and constructed. I've had back surgery a few years back and wearing other rigs all day use to wear me out. The G3 with the back pad option and hip rings finally gave me a rig I can last all day in. The folks at Mirage were very helpful and quick to reply to all my questions. This rig is very easy to pack, and with its protective flaps and tuck tabs just about bullet proof when freeflying. Two Thumbs Up For The Mirage G3!!
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The Racer is simply the best rig on the market! I own two Racers and couldn't be more pleased. As a bigger jumper, I appriciate the fit and comfort offered by JumpShack. The strength of the harness is second to none. What else can be said about the reserve system.... It's the fastest and the safest out there. I don't trust my to anything but the Racer.
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Jumped a Diablo 190 this weekend, loaded at 1.2 (almost minimum weight for this canopy). I have 100 jumps, most within the last year. Diablo is by far the smoothest all around canopy I have jumped. Opens very sweet, long snivel, and on heading. Turns are instant and crisp. Loses lots of altitude real fast in front riser turns and hard toggle turns, but will float if you need it to. Plenty of flare for landings - it wants to turf surf even at this light loading. Way easier to pack than any other ZP canopy I have jumped. I love the fabric! I also liked that Aerodyne sends its demos ready to jump - collapsible pc, D-bag, and risers already attached. I recently demoed a Spectre. It was just as sweet opening, but not quite as crisp in the turns (it was a 210). Lots harder to pack. The Diablo can be had for half price, brand new, with all the options this month. No contest. Downside: you only get the demo for one weekend, and backorder can be 10-12 weeks. Someone else must like it, too.
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One the visor securely latches and is not extremely difficult to unlatch. Once I figged out the little "move" required to open it, I find it quite easy to unlatch. The visor of some of the other helmets I looked at didn't appear as well secured and I see many home modifications around the Dz of new helemts to ensure visor stays closed. I've also see fairly new helmets without visors that their owner complained ripped off in freefall so now they wear goggles. I rather have to deal with a harder latch than an unexpected rip off of my visor. The other little thing is the chin strap. It's much more comfortable than say a traditional Protech strap and much easier to adjust & use. Besides the arguable safety advantage, I like that it has the chin strap for the simple reason that I can clip it on to my chest strap or whatever & forget about the helmet after landing or when ever I need to stow the helmet. I see lots of other helmets that don't use a chin strap being dropped or the owner walking into things because they didn't realize they where that tall with the helmet perched on top of their head. Whatever you find best for you, I wish you the warmest, bluest &, most importantly, the safest of skies.
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I bought an A-3 about two months ago. So far I've been very pleased with it. I've had no incidents, yet, with the lens flying open in freefall, although I have heard that there are problems with the lens ratchets on some (maybe all) of the helmets. I like the ability to easily open the lens once under canopy. It opens pretty easily considering how tightly it seals when closed. I would warn any purchasers that it seems to take Sky Systems a very long time to ship. My order was for a standard A-3 helmet, standard colors, etc., but it took forever to get it shipped to the local gear shop. So if you want one, and it has to come from Sky Systems, be prepared for a wait.
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I purchased a Pro-Track about 3 months ago and, although it's not necessary, then bought the Jump Track software to go along with it. Most of the dive information is available immediately after the jump on the Pro-Track's LCD screen. Jump-Track just provides a little more information and graphs out the dive. I jump an Oxygen A-3 helmet, which has an external port for the Pro-Track. The volume of the Pro-Track's 3 audible warnings, which is adjustable, is more than sufficient even with the external port. For those that might already have one, I have detected one bug. It did not properly calculate the date for the leap year. Consequently, it was off by a day. But that problem was simple to correct. All in all, a great gadget, highly accurate and easy to use. Although it's expensive, I've been very pleased with it and highly recommend it.
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After years of owning Racers, Javelins, and Vectors, my wife insisted I get a new Infinity from Velocity Sports. This new rig is perfect. In the past, I've had the open flaps, the loose risers, and even two premature deployments while skydiving (not with ROL pilot chute but with Pullout), but no more. The new Infinity closes securely, with the double riser covers insuring nothing, but nothing, is going to come out too soon. When you're head down at a bazillion miles an hour, it kills the fun to be worrying about your gear. Whether freeflying, belly flying, or working hard with students, this rig makes it a lot more fun. It's about as comfortable as anything else I've worn, and the workmanship is great. Now if they'll only design a tandem rig, I'll have it made.
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My love for the Z1 has slipped considerably from when I purchased it two years ago. PROs: I find that it rarely fogs up (actually, the first time was last week). The visor has never come open in freefall (and once when I accidentally left the plane with it open, the aerodynamics of its design didn't blow out my contacts!) The visor is easy to flip up, even with gloves on. CONs: The durability is atrocious! I have stress cracks all around the base of the helmet. No kicks to the head, just normal wear and tear. Super Glue has become my constant companion. The elastic pull-cord (to tighten the helmet) will generally take your hair with it. I have remedied this by switching the accessibility of the pull-cord to the front of the helmet. The hot-glued liner comes loose and has to be re-glued frequently. ("I glue and I glue and I glue for you, and this is the thanks I get!") :-) Summary: If ParaSport Italia can assure me that their quality in manufacturing the Z1 has improved, I would certainly buy another one. The positive features are outstanding. As it stands, however, I've paid about a buck a jump for my helmet. I had hoped it would last for more than 200 skydives.
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I have being jumping my Power Racer 300*300ci with stairstep legstraps for 3 years with appox 600 jumps, with 120 raven and 88 MK 1 EXTREME.Doing 4-way,AFF and freefly.Weighing 7.15 kg is almost 1kg lighter than over small rigs I have had 2 cutaways drew to line twists with the resulting reserve deployment being quiet fast ie by the time reserve handle is pulled dowm to hip you can feel your reserve raisers pulling you upright.This is at subterminal.Great Rig.
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I have been jumping a Racer since 1980. I find it to be the most comfortable rig on the market. In my 20 years of jumping I have used my reserve 13 times. I always know that my reserve will be quick off my back. They are designed to let the jumper achieve a deep arch if need be. I would recommend this rig to anyone looking for the most comfortable and most reliable rig on the market. In my 20 years of jumping I have owned 5 Racers and of course my next one will be a Racer.
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When I received my Javelin, the main closing flap was obviously too long. I sent it back, and they said "it's not too long- whattaya mean?" I said to just cut 3/4" off, and send it back, which they did. They didn't bother to shorten the inner flap, so I had to just fold it over. It fuctions okay now. After about 100 jumps, the stiffeners in the riser covers took on a kink, such that they often come open in freefall. The rig is comfortable, and the construction quality is good. It seems that the container panels were just cut a bit wrong somehow.
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Space Games # 8 took place at Skydive America Palm Beach Florida, from the 28th January to the 6th February. Everything went very smoothly with all the Games. More precision and control was requested for the Races and as expected everybody's flying skill level was much higher then previous Space Games. Beautiful. Once again a big thank you to our sponsor Skydive America and Larry Kerschenbaum for hosting the event at its beautiful location and putting up all the prize money for the events and developer of the Space Games, Olav Zipser! Here are the Results: Atmosphere Dolphin Challenge: Started with the Atmosphere Dolphin Challenge this time, 31 competitors from (USA, Italy, UK, Germany, Finland, France, Canada, South Africa, Macedonia, Venezuela) Double elimination One on One Tournament style event. Names were drawn randomly the day before starting the competition. Believe in fate or not, to me it is one of the must fun part of the all Games: the Drawing from the hat. He He, it gives you the chills and butterfly and is kind of magic that moment where they pick your name and now they pick the next name..apprehension, phew!!, who is it gonna be ??? It's funny how the Fate Plays it's own game and make you meet specific persons along the Race !! 2 racers exit the plane with the ball master who is filming the race. They need to perform specific maneuvers in a specific order next to the spaceball and in between each maneuver, point at the spaceball at grabbing distance.etc This time even more precision was requested to all Free flyers in order to get their points: be in the picture with full torso, head and hips, pointing to perfection, don't cross over the other competitor airspace. Fast yes.but super precise that was the winning key decision on who was the winner was first left to the competitors themselves no matter what the rules would say. If the racers could not decide between themselves who was the winner, the decision was then left to the judges who would apply the rules systematically. Everything went smoothly and most of the times competitor would find the winner by themselves. Judges ended up being called only for very tight races. The nicest way to actually understand how the Competitors get along during the races, basically see who had to meet who and so on would be to see the bracket itself. These are the final results! 1st Place : Jon De Vore 3000,-$ 2nd Place : John Matthews 1500,-$ 3rd Place : Steve Utter 900,-$ 4th Place : Filippo Fabbi 5th Place : Mike Ortiz, Stefania Martinengo 6th Place : Olav Zipser, Eli Thompson, Bruce Graybill, Mike Swanson 7th Place : Jim Oreilly, Rob Silver, Matt Nelson, Kevin Sabarese, Mauro Tannino, Janine Hill 8th Place : Teppo Heikinnen , Timmy Wardensky, Goran Lazarovsky, John Skinner, Max Cohn, Francisco Neri, Emannuelle Celicout, Joe Josephs 9th Place : Lucky Mike, Dave Brown, Stan Gray, Micheal Sandner, Dave Padijasek, Nathan Gilbert Special special Thanx to all the people who helped so much to get this Game going without whom this race would have not possiblytake place : AD Challenge Space Ball masters cameraflyers : Timmy Wardensky, Francisco Neri, Steve Utter, Teppo Heikinnen, Stefania Martinengo, Janine Hill, John Shoffner, Filippo Fabbi, Mike Swanson, Mauro Tannino, Bruce Graybill, Olav Zipser, John Matthews, John Skinner, Jim Oreilly, Rob Silver, Stan Gray, Lucky Mike Outside cameraflyers : Brad Chatellier, Steve Utter, Larry Kerschenbaum Judges : Roger Nelson, Gordon Craig Freefly Indy 500: 32 Competitors. Actually a few of them left the Competition after the 1st round giving a forfeit as the AD Challenge the Freefly Indy 500 is a double elimination One on One style Event. Again winning key was: super fast but precise and more than anything aware of how your track was set. As a matter of fact some of the fastest people lost their races as being very fast but didn't take enough precautions in making sure that they got the gate or the eclipsing of the ribbons attached to the foot of the Pylons. Other people had different approach in the game sacrificing some of their speed to make sure to get the gate and eclipse the ribbons in a clear way. As the race is judged through the 2 pylons camera views, racers had to consider carefully the different perspectives of the shooting angles, in case the 2 pylons would have not be perfectly on level. In this Game, as in the AD Challenge decision on who was the winner was first left to the competitors themselves, no matter what the rules would say. If they could not come up with a winner by themselves accordingly, then judges were called to make the decision applying the rules systematically. A new element in this edition of the Free fly Indy 500 compared to the previous Space Games Events was that for each single race the 2 competitors had to flip a coin to decide which direction to go around the track: left or right. The final results!! 1st Place Olav Zisper 3000,-$ 2nd Place Jon De Vore 1500,-$ 3rd Place Mike Swanson 900,-$ 4th Place Steve Utter 5th Place Colon Berry, Mauro Tannino 6th Place Rook Nelson, John Matthews, Teppo Heikinnen, Brad Chatellier 7th Place Max Cohn, Michi, Janine Hill, John Shoffner, Francisco Neri, Filippo Fabbi 8th Place Dave Padyjasek, Stefania Martinengo, Jim Oreilly, Dave Brown, Lucky Mike, Tim Wardensky, Bruce Graybill, John Skinner 9th Place Emannuelle Celicout, Joe Josephs, Larry Kerschenbaum, Rob Silver, Goran Lazarovsky, Kevin Sabarese, Mike Ortiz, Nathan Gilbert, Special Special Thanx to all the people who helped so much in getting this Game going, without those friends this race would have not possibly taken place: Pylons Cameraflyers: Kenny Cosgrove, Brad Chatellier, Timmy Wardenski, Francisco Neri, Dave Padyjasek, Stefania Martinengo, Max Cohn, Kevin Sabarese, Mike Swanson, Filippo Fabbi, Dave Brown, John Schoffner, Janine Hill, Teppo Heikinnen, Michi Sandner, Mauro Tannino, Steve Utter, Olav Zipser, John Matthews, Rob Silver, Larry Kerschenbaum, Nathan Gilbert, Bruce Graybill, Emanuelle Celicout. Outside Camera: Brad Chatellier, Steve Utter, Olav Zipser, Larry Kerschenbaum, Filippo Fabbi The Bermuda Triangle Tracking: Here the race is a One on One Single elimination style event. Anyone is welcome to test their tracking skills in this event and the race is judged by competitors as to who was ahead at opening time. The only fast rule in this event is that competitors have to be open by 3000 ft! The final results!! 1st: Olav Zipser $ 500 2nd: Dave Padyjasek $ 300 3rd: Dave Brown $ 150 4th: Rook Nelson, Mike Swanson 5th: Bruce Graybill,Teppo Heikinnen, Lucky Mike Pantall, Kevin Sabarese 3 way Freefly Open: 11 Teams. For the 3 Way Freefly Open teams had to present a video of their best Compulsory Round and a video of their best Free Round. Compulsory Round consisted of 9 basic moves to be repeated in order in the 45 seconds. The moves were: 360 turn, 360 loop, weedeater (done simultaneouslyby the 2 team members without the camera) Under over, 3 carves, 69, Foot to foot, Mind warp, Vertical Compress. Best Teams performed 18 points in the 45 seconds. Free round was judged on Camera Work/ Photography, Technical Skills, and Artistic Overall Impression. Most of the Teams presented very technical flying combining it with Artistic Choreography. Very Nice and Interesting stuff: speeds changing from belly to vertical to fast tracking to fast transitions and difficult docks. Flyboyz won with a very nice Choreography and excellent interactive team flying, the musical rhythm and perfect synchronization is what characterizes this team. Team Skyfly (Olav Zipser, Rook Nelson and Mauro Tannino) and Team Modern Skyflying (Mike Swanson, Filippo Fabbi, Olav Zipser)both presented very technical dives showing all flying dimensions in a nice fluid combination, which didn't lack rhythm! 2 teams distinguished themselves presenting 2 dancing style routines mixing free flying and freestyle together in a nice Choreography: French Connection (Emanuelle Celicout, Max Cohn and Steve Utter) and team Sky (. Both Teams presented a nice fluid and elegant Choreography with technical speed changing and new original moves. Again, all teams distinguished themselves for different elements, technicality and originality of certain moves. 1st Flyboyz (Fritz Pfnur, Mike Ortiz, Eli Thompson) 4500,-$ 2nd Skyfly ( Rook Nelson, Olav Zipser, Mauro Tannino) 1800,-$ 3rd Modern Skyflying (Mike Swanson, Filippo Fabbi,Olav Zisper) 900,-$ Best Camera : Fritz Pfnur (Fly Boyz) 180,-$ Best Tecnicall Tied : Flyboyz, Sky and the Juice 60-$ per Team Best Artistic : Flyboyz 180,-$ Special Special Thnx to the Judges in the 3 wayFreefly Open as we know is a very tiring and hard job. Camera/Photography : Janine Hill, Tim Koranda, Roger Nelson Technical : Kevin Sabarese, John Schoffner Artistic : Chad Jonosky, Joel
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I bought my NVERTIGO in August '99. After only 10 or so jumps I noticed a stress fracture in the bottom rear of the helmet. The crack is slowly growing and the helmet will probably split in half in another month or so. I'm going to contact SkiSystems this week to see if I can get it replaced. I haven't had any impacts with the ground and my head, It probably started to fail because I need to pull the sides out to get it over my fat head.
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1st Chute I've owned. I weigh 195 pounds and I could not get the 190 to fit in my container so I tried a 175. It was fast for my experience level, but I still felt safe with it. It opens softer than any other chute I have jumped. It turns fast and I can ride it in brakes and shorten my landing approach if need be. This chute is very nice for a first chute and yet challenging (for a beginner 100 jumps or less) if you load it a little (1.3). I really like it. That's just my 2 cents, but I've probably jumped 10 different chutes in 56 jumps and 20 of those jumps were on the triathlon.
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My history in the US Army Airborne was quite extensive, whereas my skydiving was minimal with only 125 jumps. After twelve years of being out of the sport, I jumped back in relying on my military training as a frame of reference. I researched every container manufacturer in-depth. Being 6'6" 265 pounds, I was having some difficulty with some of the manufacturers even replying to my questions. I just about had it narrowed down to a Racer first and then a Vector. Linda Marie at the GearStore in Elsinore suggested getting some info from Reflex also and forwarded my email to Mick who in turn personally responded. I guess my biggest hurdle was the change from Type 13 harness material over the years to Type 7. Mick explained that his gear had been TSO'd at 300 pounds. Well, with Mick's year end sale and his personal attention, I bought the M-flex (military Reflex). We had to send it back for a retrofit (I had screwed up the measurements) and Mick took care of it personally. The M-Flex fits comfortably and is easy to pack. And personally, the extra knowledge in knowing that there is a catapault system on there gives me a little added confidence level.
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I have a Sabre 150, my last canopy was a Sabre 170. I weigh 200lbs in the door. I never roll the nose, only put 6 or 7 rolls on the tail. I have not yet had a slammer. But with only 200 Sabre jumps maybe it hasn't started yet!!! Sabres are great for me!!!
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I recently purchased a Safire 134 after 700+ jumps on the Sabre 150 (I'm personally about 93kg) Only 3 words come to mind - I LOVE IT After 8 jumps, 6 of the openings have been smooth as, one I had to shake the risers a little to bring the slider down, and the last, a brake off on opening... had a reasonable spin going, but pulled on both brakes, thus releasing the other and she was flying straight and level again My ProTrack kept recording decent rate down through 60mph on that one, instead of cutting out in the 85-100mph range. On long distance spots, I've managed to fly further than I thought, and when I'm open over the top, it's let's get dizzy time Packing it has been easier than I thought it'd be too (remembering back to when I initially got the Sabre) - 8 packs down, and she goes in the bag with only a little bit of a 'come on, stay in there'... the Vectran lines are noticable in their colour when seen by others (I was prewarned they'd be a little yellow) Here in the land Down Under, the Safire was also cheaper than the Sabre (Safire 134 was AUD$1990, whereas someone else paid $2300 for a Sabre 150 with 4 jumps on it!!!). Keep up the great work Jyro Blue Skies Andrew Bassett-Smith APF E-1111 FAI FS Judge
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I have about 250 jumps on my Z1 in conditions ranging from 95 & humid to 10 degrees with snow falling, and I'm very happy with it. I chose the Z1 mainly for the easy opening & closing visor. It is a cinch to snap it open and closed with one hand, whether climbing out the door or under canopy. I really like the washable liner. There is something really nice about putting on a fresh-smelling helmet every weekend, rather than a crusty sweatbucket. It's comfortable enough to leave on for the whole ride to altitude, and provides some noise reduction. It's also quiet in freefall, though in certain positions a little wind gets around the visor - it does not seal completely as an Oxygn design does. This slight leakage has never caused a problem for me, and I wear contacts. It may also help keep the lens from fogging. Peripheral vision is excellent. I'm never aware of any obstruction in freefall. Like probably any full-face helmet, you do have to tilt your head a little to see your handles. The Z1 lens is thinner and probably less impact-resistant than the thick Oxygn lens, but mine has taken kicks without damage. I also have none of the hassle Oxygn owners do with their more easily smeared and hard-to-clean antifog-coated lens. I don't use an audible but I have tried a standard TimeOut in my helmet - it seemed a bit thick and was pressed against my ear. A thinner audible would probably be comfortable. Because the color is painted on, my Z1 shows scratches easily, but really, who cares - they are easily covered by obnoxious stickers...
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HANSEN -- His friends warned him not to jump. It was too dark. The wind wasn't right. The water was too high. But 29-year-old Roger Butler, an experienced BASE jumper who once parachuted from the Stratosphere hotel tower in Las Vegas, apparently died Sunday after jumping from the Hansen Bridge and disappearing in the water. "All of them tried to talk him out of it, but he had to do it," said Cpl. Daron Brown of the Twin Falls County Sheriff's Office. "The guy was experienced, but he made a bad choice." With the help of a brand-new underwater camera, search and rescue teams from Jerome and Twin Falls counties continued searching the frigid Snake River Monday for signs of Butler and his parachute, but the search was called off as sundown neared. Water flow at the Minidoka Dam was stopped late Monday to lower the water level and aid searchers when they continue this morning. The counties don't know the cost of the search. Butler, who had made more than 600 BASE jumps, spent Sunday with three friends parachuting from the Perrine Bridge, a popular spot for BASE jumpers because it is legal to jump there. BASE stands for building, antenna, span and earth. In October 1999, this same group had parachuted with a woman the day before she broke her back in a jumping accident at the Perrine Bridge, said Nancy Howell, spokeswoman for the Twin Falls County Sheriff's Office. The group was headed back to Ogden, Utah, Sunday before stopping at the Hansen Bridge, where jumping also is legal. With his friends videotaping, Butler jumped from the west side of the bridge and glided toward the water without a hitch, but he ran into trouble after hitting the river, Howell said. It wasn't immediately clear what happened, but shortly after landing in the water Butler and his chute disappeared below the surface. Neither has been seen since, she said. Butler was not wearing a life jacket, and he was jumping into a highly inaccessible area of the Snake River Canyon, Brown said. "BASE jumping is like whitewater rafting," he said. "It's a self-saving sport. You can't expect to jump off a bridge and have someone come and save you." Butler's taste for daring jumps was passed down from his father, a parachuter for 30 years, said Paul Butler, an uncle who drove to Twin Falls after the accident. Roger Butler watched his father nearly die in a 1998 parachuting accident that almost cost the older Butler his leg. But a year later father and son were parachuting together again during a Fourth of July celebration, Paul Butler said. "He just loved to do this," Paul Butler said of his nephew. "He loved to fly."
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I had the demo Spectre 210 loaded at 1:1 and jumped it two weekends. Loved it from the very first jump! The long, snivelly opening scared me. I was looking up at the slider thinking, "you are coming down, right?" Openings take several seconds and are like sitting down in an easy chair. You can see each cell filling, and the slider slowly heading down to you. I didn't know what a soft opening was before jumping Spectre. Openings were on heading with no dive. Toggle pressure was light, very snappy turns. I enjoyed looking over the tail at the ground on several turns. Recovered instantly to full flight. Buried brakes still did not stall the canopy, but sunk it in smoothly. The landings were fun, too. Not too much surf for a beginner, but enough to train you to use a two stage flare. Packing - new ZP, what can I say? After the first lengthy snivel, I rolled the tail much less and left the nose hanging (don't push it in!)