pms07

It really only adds another 20 secs to your pack job. I cock mine twice. Once before it goes in the bag and once after. I've found that it does move slightly during packing, maybe not enough to cause a PCIT but having had one of those before, don't want one again. If my routine is always to do it twice, plus a pin check, it won't happen again. Did you have a PCIT because you forgot to cock the PC? Curious because if you cock it once per pack job you won't have a PCIT caused by an uncocked PC. Correct? So, I still don't see the logic behind cocking twice. Do you set your brakes twice? With that said, if it works for you don't change...although packing quickly and efficiently is important to some... Yeah, the kill line can move...thus the logic behind cocking the pc just before putting the bag in the container.

Yeah, the original Swift reserve was a 5-cell and advertised as 177 sq ft IIRC. Completely different canopy than the Swift Plus series. The Swift had an unusual steering line set-up as others have mentioned. Anyway, I jumped one set up as a main many times and a couple of times on actual reserve rides. I also know others that jumped a Swift reserve as a main. It was a good canopy in it's day. I would not recommend it now however, even if it was given to you at no cost...and appeared to be brand new. Lots of better options to save your life that are not 20+ years old... As an aside, one of my Swift reserve rides help identify the 1986 recall problem. The canopy was owned by R.I. and packed in a prototype Talon. It's the only time I was ever convinced I was going to die under a fully open canopy...

I don't understand why anyone would cock the pilot chute multiple times. Seems like a waste of time and effort. I cock the pilot chute once. I check the window again as part of my preflight gear check, ensuring I did not forget, immediately prior to putting on my rig. If cocking the pilot chute multiple times is what works for you, okay, but there are more efficient solutions perhaps. Get into a routine or pattern and pack the same every time to help avoid forgetting improtant stuff. I cock the pilot chute right before placing the bag in the container and don't worry at all about catching material in the kill line as I jump a Talon FX which, of course, has an enclosed kill line. There's a reason why vector, talon and others have an enclosed kill line... Personally, I like the R.I. enclosed bridle PC and bridle but there are others that seem to work just as nicely.

No, not really, not everyone wants them.. This is the american logic - The bigger - the "better", not the whole worlds.. Bigger doesn't equate to most distance covered and the biggest speed (which imho matters most in wingsuit flying), unless you fly in mega downwind.. There's a reason why most people don't fly mattresses in BASE environment (where you witness TRUE wingsuit flight). Sangi, I usually try to treat everyone here with respect...or at least a measure of courtesy. Your posts frequently test my resolve in that matter however... In any case, I would suggest that "big" wingsuits are not exclusively an "american logic" and you can see that at many wingsuit events (or video) from events with international attendance. Now I'm curious though. What's your experience with wingsuits in BASE environrment, or anywhere for that matter, that drives your perceptions of "american logic"? And why is BASE "TRUE wingsuit flight"? Can you explain that better? pms

Yeah, Lew was jumping at Archway last weekend.

Jarno, The FLB Flight Manuals and other stuff you have online are really well done. Thanks for putting wingsuit education out there for all of us to learn from. Well done! And I don't care if you can spell. I will buy the beer next time I see you...though hope you bring stroopwaffels... Pat

I had a great time for the two days I was on the DZ. First time for me to jump at CSC; nice DZ and people, great airplanes and facilities. I will be back. My thanks to Zach and Brian S. for organizing, I really enjoyed the jumps! pms

I plan to be there tomorrow morning sometime. See you all then.

That your opinion for what its worth. Sparky Well, of course it's an opinion. There is a difference between your opinion and mine however. Mine is based on fact, personal observation and actually being there on the skydive. Yours? Not so much...

Some of the posts in this thread about mad skillz and entitlement generation stuff are kind of foolish. Neither had anything to do with it. I was on all three loads that morning. Winds were forecast, from multiple sources, to be ~20 mph all day in the region. They were averaging 17-18mph most of the morning and fairly steady when I was watching the weather meter earlier. There had been two gusts between loads 2 and 3 in the vicinity of 26 or 27 mph, maybe 20-30 minutes before takeoff IIRC. The winds were showing 20 mph when I went to get on the plane for load 3. There were signs that the very strong winds aloft, 70+mph at 13k, were descending however. I think marginal is a fair way way to describe the conditions. The decision to launch the load seemed reasonable to me however. I know some were talked to about sitting it out, presumably based on their experience, and I think at least one or two did just that. Reviewing high wind landing procedures seemed a reasonable idea as well and I saw that type of advice being passed to several by Peek and couple of other very experienced folks. Anyway, I was solo and flying a wingsuit, exited last so landed 4-5 minutes after the rest of load 3. Winds were gusty and ~25 mph when I landed, without incident, and stayed that way or stronger for the rest of the day. I did not see the actual landings of any that were dragged so can't comment on what they did or did not do. There's no doubt they got caught in stronger and gusty conditions however as Peek observes. Again, the decision to launch the load, in my view was reasonable and I would get on it again today in the same situation. Each of us as licensed skydivers needs to make a deliberate risk management decision before each jump, especially with strong or gusty wind conditions. If you are uncomfortable in the situation, sit it out. pms

That this thread has generated only a few responses should be no real surprise. Most skydivers seem to avoid the political end of our sport and would rather just skydive. That's mostly how it works in the USPA anyway. A wingsuit organization, after perhaps some initial enthusiasm, would likely be the same. Anyway, I’ve thought more about a separate wingsuit organization and at this point don’t believe this is the best way for the wingsuit community to move forward. Here’s why: At this point the goals are not well defined, at least publicly, and the proponents are mostly unknown. To build consensus requires an open and inclusive effort but some will likely conclude that is not the case. I would like to hear how such an organization would unify us as a community and build consensus. Really, I mean specifically. Consensus and respect from our peers are built through effective communication, compromise, negotiation and respect for the opinions of others, even if you disagree. The scarcity of all that is what brings us to this point, not the absence of a governing wingsuit organization. Consensus is not built by creating a new club. In fact, we already have the mechanism and structure in place to move our discipline forward…and that is USPA. While some may not agree with everything the USPA had done, me included, the board of directors has been responsive to the wingsuit community. USPA board meetings are open to all, agendas and minutes are published, and real procedures already exist to support us in a structured environment. It’s also unclear how a separate organization might interact with the USPA and this is an important consideration in relation to internationally sanctioned competition, records, and safety issues. While some may not care about that aspect, others do (remember, we are being inclusive…). In fact, the two opposing perspectives are not mutually exclusive. Want to organize a night, backflying, 3d, docked, community recognized but “unofficial” record bigway? You can do it tonight and nothing the USPA or IPC does now, or might do in the future, takes away from the effort. And, nothing a separate wingsuit organization might do is needed for you to organize that record as well. So, we can already do community recognized events, set our own scores, and figure out how we want to be judged. Likewise, nothing the USPA or IPC can or will do stops us from determining consensus in relation to "official" national or world records. In fact, those organizations provide the environment for just that with established parliamentary procedure. We just need to participate in a collegial manner. Some may perceive the USPA as headed by “former skydivers” but it’s really not a fair characterization. Go to a board of directors meeting, as some here have done, and get to know the board members. They are skydivers, pretty much just like wingsuit flyers. Really, what we do in the sky is not brain surgery and we can explain it easily to other experienced skydivers that have yet to be “converted”. Just as the RW community did in 70s, just as the CRW community did in the 80s, just as the FF community did in the 90s. And I still don’t understand how we have the full support of the USPA for a separate organization as suggested earlier. Can that be explained more fully? USPA offered us an option to have a neutral party mediate our differences and help build consensus. I don’t know if that offer is still on the table but, if it is, we should accept. And there is probably no on more qualified to fill the role than BJ Worth. pms

DSE, It's not a secret freemason type thing is it? I mean, at least letting folks know who has been involved in discussion prior to and at F&D seems a reasonable idea. Others may want to provide input or ask questions as you move forward. Okay, I would like to help. How do I get started? I can PM you contact information or whatever is needed. Please advise... Pat

DSE, Thanks for the quick response. Sounds like a good goal though I'm at a loss to explain the "tar baby" question asked by Marion... I'm still curious about the USPA interaction piece, in particular in relation to Kallend's comments. I wonder how this might work in relation to the USPA and IPC so spent some time looking at the USPA governance manual today. As most know, the USPA Board does business with officers and an executive committee, standing committees, a HQ staff, and the exec committee can act between meetings as well. There is also a provision in the GM for a "task force", which as I understand it is a temporary working group whose role expires when the current board's term expires. Has any of that been discussed with USPA or is there a different mechanism that might be possible? The language in the symposium minutes indicated that "we have the full support of USPA", and that's essentially how I recall it. Was that accurate cause I don't understand what USPA has or has not done? I had not heard that the board or exec committee had considered the question of a separate wingsuit organization at their most recent meeting. Minutes of the meeting have not been posted yet however so I cannot see what all they considered and of course I was not there. A couple of board members I asked about the issue had not heard of the initiative or that USPA had "supported it" either, thus my question. Of course there is no USPA support required, no approval or even consideration needed for this initiative... So was it more just an informal question to a couple of board members? Beyond those questions, I guess maybe I should try to exercise some patience to learn more as those involved work the details and are able to get it out to the community. Okay, maybe just one more question; can you tell us the names of the 8 well-known wingsuiters involved. Thanks again. pms

From the wingsuit symposium minutes: "We might want to talk about creating a subset organization that would be a wingsuit community group, call it whatever, it could encompass all of this stuff, become a clearinghouse for everything coming from Europe, stuff from Flock U, the Grid, Jarno's method etc. Is it feasible having a centralized place where everything comes together and there's an organization? If we do pursue it, we have full support of the USPA. We could do things that complement other things. "what interaction would this group have with USPA?" "USPA could endorse some activities, or maybe not. Too early to tell. This was brought up with national directors. This may be a way to look at something differently. They're interested in this because they see the rift in the wingsuit community. It's hard to get all parties involved. "*** I'm late to say it but THANK YOU to DSE and others that organized the symposium during F&D! It was a great initiative to bring us together to discuss a variety of issues. One of the final topics discussed raised the possibility of creating a separate wingsuit organization. There was not much time to ask questions or discuss because the meeting was near the end of our allotted time. So, I would like to hear more about the idea; any thoughts on goal or purpose of such an organization, how it would interact with USPA, how would it be resourced and function? Are we talking about an incorporated entity with elected directors? Staff? Mostly curious to see what others think, in particular the thoughts of those involved in discussion prior to F&D with USPA representatives. Where it says "full support of USPA"; is this something the USPA Board of Directors has discussed already? pms

All I noticed was a chick in a bikini. Was wearing purple shoes?

Great video and thanks for flying with me. Pat

At least two serious alternatives HAVE been put up for discussion. John, I appreciate the effort you have put into an alternative..thanks! Discussion is good but I think, perhaps, what some are waiting for is to see the alternatives put into use at a live, real world event. Pat

Changing things up inside the USPA is a bitch. Changing them at the international level is significantly more difficult. Playing around is what I do for a living. The hard part (for which I am paid) is organizing the results of the playing around. We need to play around with all the various methods, and should have been playing around with them this whole time. No one knew it was a race until the race was over. Fooled once, shame on you and all that. Einstein found his relativity theory by thinking of what light would do if beaming through a moving elevator in space at the speed of light. He wasn't thinking of relativity, he was playing "what-if?"? We need much more "what iffing" if we're going to find the answer to what will work, and being forced into a box so early on precludes and ignores the myriad (and so far, better) options that are available to us. "The Grid" was a stepping stone, one that we're already to move past, but by it's acceptance as a USPA standard and the political structure behind it, everyone and every sub-discipline of wingsuiting is hamstrung. We want to fly tight and want to develop other aspects, but the threat of being discluded from this or that event, or the threat of being stuck with an unimaginative system makes it difficult to have a rational discussion about any of it. And as a result of that, it's no wonder the USPA and the rest of the skydiving world view wingsuiters on the whole, as being immature brats. Between the wholesale lies, half-truths, and truth...it's kinda hard to see through the blur. So, you ask what is "wrong?" Nothing, if we're all able to recognize we need growth and advancement. Everything, if you believe we should be adhering to a standard that wasn't supposed to be anything but recognition in the first place, and not challenging enough for "records" in the second. I think everyone wants the discipline to grow. DSE, I think all agree we need growth and advancement but you seem a bit frustrated with how wingsuit issues have evolved with USPA. But let me offer some encouragement. First, let me say thanks for the work you and others have done with USPA on behalf of the wingsuit community. Although it’s been challenging, we are moving forward because of those efforts. Now, I’ll admit I don't know much about the race you mention, wholesale lies nor Einstein, but I know changing things inside the USPA is actually kind of simple. Think about it; all you really have to do is convince 11 skydivers you have a good proposal. That's it! A motion is proposed at a board meeting and 11 skydivers (BoD members of course...) support the proposal by raising their hand and saying "aye" at the appropriate time. In fact, change is almost constant in USPA. Competition, judging and records have been around since the sport began and the rules are still evolving. Even changes were made to disciplines that have been around for decades at the most recent USPA and FAI meetings. So, I don’t think we are forced into any box or are hamstrung. We can fly "tight" formations, 3-D, grips or try any dive we can imagine…and nothing the USPA has done limits rational discussion. I also don’t understand why anything that’s been accomplished would preclude an event from being organized, say using the Kallend or Jarno method of judging we’ve heard about. I have no experience with those proposals yet but would like to be there to learn, wherever the event takes place. Perhaps it’s not perfect but we currently have a proven method for judging 2-D ungripped formations. Prior to July last year we had nothing “official” but now there are two US national and at least 5 or 6 state records. And the most recent changes to judging standards at the BoD meeting seem to address vocal concerns with the grid. All that looks like progress to me. It also appears we have support from USPA BoD members for continuing to move forward and other judging methods will be considered. At least that’s what I hear from board members I’ve had an opportunity to talk with recently. Thanks again for all your work on behalf the wingsuit community. Pat

T, Thanks for all your hard work, along with Andreea, Phil, Zach, Scott, Scotty B, Spot, or any others I may have missed that were at the the USPA BoD meeting to work wingsuit issues. All this is progress and those of us on the sidelines will benefit from your effort. In addition to improving how we judge wingsuit records, the approved changes indicate a couple of things worth noting. First, we continue grow and learn as a skydiving discipline. Second, we, and the USPA, can adapt as we learn. Third, the USPA continues to support wingsuiting as the discipline evolves and is willing to adopt new rules. All that is worth noting IMO. I'm looking forward to the dives as we apply the evolving standard to what we can do in the sky! Thanks again for all your hard work moving the wingsuit discipline forward! Pat

Wildman, The drag strip at the Apollo was built in 74 or 75 but the DZ was there years prior. Great Chuck A story; he gets the drag strip association to pave his private runaway and then they went out of business just a year or so later. Meanwhile, the drop zone runway is now paved at no cost to Chuck and could be used year round...assuming you had a snowplow. Which, of course, Chuck did. Anyone that hears from Stickman, say hello for me as well. I'll look him up at the bar if I get up to Wisconsin this summer. Pat

Second jump meet I went to was at Osceola, 1974 I guess. My first 8-way was there also when Charlie flew us down from Superior in the 185 to do formation loads. I jumped at Art's Farm a few times when the DZ moved as well. I was standing looking out the windscreen on takeoff, begging Ernie to pull the power, when he planted the Beech on take-off. I landed on top of Colombo, who was hollering something about fire, but bailed instead of sticking around to hear the details. No fire fortunately. Good times…

1. Yuri 2. Jarno 3. Simon 4. Andreea 5. Kyle 6. Kipp 7. Butters (On The Fence) 8. Monkey 9. Skwrl/JD (maybe; I'll know better soon) 10. Purple Mike 11. Matt (On The Fence) 12. Stu 13. Danny 14. Pat

Stroopwaffels? I'm having flashbacks of skydiving and good times at Teuge already. I was still debating attending F&D but the stroopwaffels ended that, I'll be there. Pat

You will find that aviation rules are much different in Europe. No flying or restricted hours on Sunday, as an example, at a couple of places I jumped at. The muffler deal is pretty common also from what I saw when I lived in Germany. Both are about noise restriction.

Yup Scott..but that was my open toe Tevas and my rolled ankle didn't have much to do with the shoe IMO, it was the fact that I jumped after a rainstorm...however these Keen sandals are what I call my "winter sandals"..since they have a closed toe Yup, jumping after a rainstorm is a well known cause of injury in skydiving... ...