JAGdb

yeah, at the end of the day, this matter--money entering or not entering circulation, is kind of a circumstantial dead end. We can't draw any hard conclusion one way or another about it. You can make a case that it is supports that the hijacker died or lived on either scenario. Not saying to ignore it, just framing the investigative value of it.

Are the real pictures from post cards ? The comic pic even has the color of the cars matching...it looks like the author/illustrator basically copied the "post card".

I don't personally put a lot of stock in the average bank teller finding a cooper bill. I just don't see them manually checking a list of 10,000 bills. Many bills could be eliminated right off the bat based on the year and series. But let's say that had a $20 bill that was the correct year and or series, I believe the serial numbers were randomized in the ransom money correct? So it would literally take the bank teller, or anyone else for that matter, having to cross reference a 10,000 length list right ? Unless, I am missing some trick to doing it... Darren had the esteemed numismatist Arthur L. Friedberg on his podcast a few years ago. He presented a very strong opinion that if the money was spent, it would have turned up. I seem to remember him indicating that it would have been caught on the back end of the life cycle where the old money is retired and destroyed. While I am still skeptical, probably because I have a "slight" bias to the outcome where the hijacker survived, I have to give some weight to his opinion as the expert.

good point, i forgot about that. So every 1st and 100th bill in the master list would be a top and bottom bill.

When the Ingram's handed the money over to the FBI, did they even know which bill was a top bill and which was a bottom bill anymore ? In other words, as they were trying to separate the money, did they just mix everything up and lose the order ? The picture of the recovered money where there were 12 "piles", for lack of a better word, on the table...did they even know the original order top/bottom/middle?

Indeed, and we know rabbit holes are hard to stay of in this case, there is an open door policy lol.... it would be interesting to know who he may have met with while in the PNW, Seattle and Boeing. Did he visit military bases like McChord etc. Anyway, squirrel this one away for a rainy day.

For me, it's hard to believe it's a coincidence. I recall a few years back, (I think on the dbcooperforum), that someone, (maybe it was you), pointed the fact out that a few of the Dan Cooper comic issue(s) were based or set in the Pacific North West. The picture above is an absolute match, I mean if the author drew that out of his imagination, I don't know what the odds would be for it to match the real life Mount Rainier and Lake Tipsoo that exactly. What year is that picture above from the comic from, pre or post hijacking ? Maybe we should start looking at all of the staff that were involved in the making of the comic ?

my mistake, I missed the part about getting the envelope back in your prior post.

BTW Fly...don't take those pictures of the hijacker to the grave with you :-) Let us know that you will share it at the appropriate time lol !

Is there any information out there that Tom is working on new tests in the case ? Is he active on EU's Facebook page? (I'm not into the Facebook scene so I wouldn't know.)

This is the first I am hearing of there being an envelope that the note was inside of....is this a new find ? If it is, certainly you would think that it would be a great target for a finger print or DNA test. Could you imagine if he actually licked it and sealed it ? (Highly doubt it) But, having said that, why has it never been part of the countless descriptions of the story over the years ? I can only think of two reasons: 1) They held it back, didn't want the hijacker to know. But this only makes sense if it had actual investigative value i.e. they lifted finger prints. (If there was nothing there but Flo's finger print, you would think that it would have entered the evidentiary records the same as other pieces of evidence did.) 2) There really wasn't an envelope and this is just another example of a 302 being investigative notes where some are not as accurate as others as different people hear the accounts and document them either multiple times or 2nd or 3rd hand ? Hasn't there been some variation in the telling of the hijacker giving the note to Flo? She put it in her pocket, she dropped it, or something of that nature...mostly minor variations?

How about sitting in an unfinished attic for a few years? Here on the east coast, attics can push > ~140 degrees or so depending on whether attic fans are working or ridge vents....then the freezing in the winter.

Dr. Edwards covers the southern landing and a potential Columbia River landing in his book. It's based on notes that were taken by NWO Flight Operations and specifically the position reports that Flight 305 made on the ARINC TTY. Basically, he identifies 6 people taking notes based on the communications between 305 and NWO. He labels them authors A,B,C,D,E and F. The only name he has for one of the note takers is Bob Lowenthal. Author "F" makes a note that 305 reported to be 23 miles south of the PDX VOR at 8:18pm (now known as the Battlle Ground VOR). Based on this position report and the roughly 3 miles per minute speed of the plane, he puts 305 just south of Battle Ground and North of Vancouver at the ~8:11pm jump time INSTEAD of over Ariel as the FBI/Air Force calculations suggested. So he generally supports the Victor 23 flight path, but has the plane further south along flight path from a time line perspective and he also reexamines the wind speeds which deviates somewhat wrt to the drift the hijacker after exiting the plane. I just got done reading his book. I really enjoyed it, it is well written and I like his writing style. He really dives into the data and introduces some new data and then draws some new and interesting conclusions and proposed theories. There are some things that I am not fully convinced of: - He basically dismisses the oscillations and pressure bump as evidence of the hijacker leaving the plane. He posits that this is the hijacker simply walking down the stairs and throwing out the brief case and possible the chest chute--not entirely unreasonable. However, in my mind, the problem with this, is that he never mentions why later on when he proposes the hijacker jumps that there are not similar oscillations and bump experienced by the flight crew. - He states that the air stairs were locked during the flight, not free floating. - He states that the auto pilot was on. - He states that the air stairs were not locked during the sled test. He also points out that the fact that the sled test flight was at 7000 feet instead of 10,000 feet as 305 was during the hijacking calls into question the results of the test. - As he proposes that there was a significant possibility that the hijacker had a water landing, he didn't seem to explain or circle back to the diatoms issue i.e. lack of November diatoms present on the Tena Bar money. So that's my quick high level summary, hopefully I didn't misrepresent Dr. Edwards. Again, I think it is a really good read and the possibility that 305 was further along the flight path than the original time line proposed is one of the major assertions.

Only thing I would add to this would be to hold the Reca team and their story to the same standard regarding evidence. As far as I know, they have produced no hard evidence to support their extraordinary claims. Their story deviates drastically from what the generally accepted details are in this case. The amount of people that would have to stay on script to cover up a flight path and drop zone deviation of this magnitude without slipping up or talking makes it highly unlikely. And it would take not only law enforcement and intelligence people, it would require civilians (pilots and stewardesses, FAA radar operators, the passengers on the plane), to go along with whatever the cover up is. Make no mistake, everyone here is frustrated that things like the data from the flight data recorder or the data that the air force used (SAGE radar) has not been made public, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the plane went 100 miles to the east.

From Tom Kay at CS web site: "The rubber bands around the Cooper bundles were extremely degraded but still in their proper positions when found." I haven't read the CS website in a while: https://citizensleuths.com/rubber-band-analysis.html But the line stating that the rubber bands were still in their proper positions must have come from the Ingram's right ? And he is using the plural form "rubber bands", so the Ingram's observed more than one rubber band. If so, it sounds like it was part of a more detailed description that we have not fully seen. What else was part of that description ? Did they clearly state that there were rubber bands on each of the three packets/straps ? Were there two rubber bands per strap ? How many rubber bands were there ? In the money analysis that CS performed: https://citizensleuths.com/moneyanalysis.html Tom shows a picture of one packet with only ONE rubber band, is this based on what Tom understood the Ingram family to have described? ughhh....around and around we go :-) Happy Friday to all !

I know there are very few verifiable facts, so to speak, in this case. For me, I am accepting as a given for now, that there were rubber bands. The Ingram family have been steadfast that there were rubber bands when they found the money and that they basically crumbled away. I don't see a reason that they would make that up, the only other possibility is that they saw something that they mistook for rubber bands, but I can't go there. For folks that have spoken directly to the Ingram family, whether it be TK/EU or anyone else, have they gotten into specifics about how many rubber bands were observed ? Were there rubber bands around each of the 3 packets ? Georger, you posted the below on dbcooperforum #3195: 'The money was badly decomposed and was held together with rubber bands which were so old they crumbled away immediately upon handling. They took the money home where they showed it to INGRAMs brother-in-law, who took the rest of the rubber bands off and was going to dry out the money and try to reclaim it. They had no idea at this time where the money had come from.' This sounds like the Ingrams have provided some more details beyond just, "there were rubber bands". I also think that Tina's "bank type bands" phrase, coupled with some of the other statements that Carr has made after speaking to the bank employee, would seem more likely to imply that there were also paper bands involved. In my opinion, when someone sees a rubber band, I tend to think that they would use the word "rubber" when describing it to someone. The fact that Tina didn't say "bank type bands...that were rubber" or "bank type rubber bands" has me leaning toward the take that she saw paper bands. The link that Georger posted had pictures of straps with paper in the middle and rubber bands on both edges...that's interesting. I think it seems plausible by all of the discussions and parsing of words of the participants and witnesses, that there were probably both rubber bands and paper bands. All this said, what is the value in this discussion? I can think of at least two and I am sure that there are more: 1) Does it help us understand how the 3 packets arrived at Tena Bar ? Three straps, bundled together into one makes it easier to explain how it was found, one on top of the other i.e. human intervention not required to place them like that in a burial scenario. 2) If it could be said that the money was delivered secured/bound in one way, but it was discovered to bound in a different way, then that implies someone changed it....that would be a big deal. The above are just my opinions and conjecture.

Yes, I agree and actually thought the same for the second one, that while there was some aging, it didn't give the 45ish type feel. Not sure if those were real people or just computer generated.

thought this was pretty cool, they morph the composites into live faces:

I think there is value in knowing that the three one hundred bill packets were bundled together. It would kind of eliminate the question as to what are the odds that 3 separate packets would wind up on top of each other without human intervention? I don't think it makes the dredge theory more of an option as I would still have a hard time believing that the rubber band would hold against the violent forces of the dredge. But again, too many variables to consider to draw any conclusion on this. I would think that if someone had the chance to ask Tina,-- Did you see paper bands on the money? That even today, she should be able to answer that. How come Allison Hancock never seems to be included in this question, wasn't she there when Cooper offered some of the ransom money ? Didn't Cooper actually attempt to hand a packet to them (Flo/Tina/Allison)? I guess Allison is even more elusive or tight lipped when it comes to answering Cooper questions.

My interpretation of what the diatom paper states is roughly as follows: ( I posted this on Shutter's site few months back)- 377s bill was not a top or bottom bill in the packet/bundola, it was from somewhere in the middle. He draws this conclusion based on the fact that a diatom was found sandwiched between two pieces of different bills. - That the packet experienced water immersion at which time the bill(s) fanned out.- While the bill(s) was fanned out, planktonic diatoms (Asterionella and others) attached themselves to the bill. This diatom species is active in the spring/summer time, therefore the bills only were in the water during the spring/summer time frame.- At some point, the packet unfanned and the packet congealed back into a compressed form sealing the edges.- Once the packet was congealed, there is no evidence of diatom's penetrating to the interior of the bill. - There is no evidence of sand based diatom species on the bill. This implies that while the money was buried, no sand based diatom species attached (sand based diatom species are smaller than the diatom species that live in the water). How long does it take for money to congeal ? What conditions are required for congealing i.e mutliple wet/dry cycles? Do rubber bands last longer in oxygen starved environments ? What are the oxygen environments in 6 to 8 inches of sand or at the bottom of the Colombia ? By the time the money was discovered, I am guessing there were only remnants of the rubber bands, perhaps visible on the top and or bottom of the bundles--it would be nice to have that clarification from Brian Ingram or his parents, not sure if anyone was ever able to ask him/them of that detail. It's my take that the FBI never saw the rubber bands and that the Ingram's probably destroyed the rubber bands when they took them home and tried to separate the money.

The statement in the above 302, "and as far south as the Colombia River" is really mind blowing to me. Is this wide range just a function of it being so early on in the investigation, (12/2/71), that Soderlind hadn't quite had the time to go through all of the data yet and prune it down ?

It seems like no matter what theory is explored for the money winding up on Tena Bar, a dead end is reached. If the money was deposited on the beach from dredging, then how on earth did the money wind up in the Colombia given the official flight path ? Wash Down Theory: While the Washougal wash down theory was used as an explanation, after lots of scrutiny and vetting, most don't see how this could have been possible give the distances involved. Dead End reached. Alternate Flight Path: Again, at this point, good theory to explore, but nothing concrete at the moment to prove. Dead End reached. Human Intervention: Somebody through the money in the river. Again, make up your favorite scenario here, Cooper himself, someone who found the money and decided to get rid of it, Tina took money from Cooper on the plane and put it there after feeling guilty or scared. Coming up with these scenarios is fine and even entertaining, but they can't be proven and one individual's imagination is as good as another's I suppose. Dead End reached. If the money was not deposited by the dredge: Flooding deposited it there: For this to be possible, the money had to be somewhere in the vicinity for it to be within the flood plain so to speak. This kind of goes back to the same issue above, how did the money get to this area for it to be within the flood waters reach based on where we believe the flight path was? Dead End reached. Human Intervention: See above. Dead End reached. I may be missing some other possibilities, but still they run into a dead end. The equation can't be solved with the given data, too many missing variables. We need another piece of data/fact. The diatom discovery was a positive new piece of data, but in some sense introduced even more questions. And it is only based on the testing of 377s one bill. It would be great if TK could examine another bill in the same way and see if produces the same diatom profile or results. These bills were all together, so one would think the results would be the same, but who knows? Maybe bills in the middle would yield different results than bills closer to the end ? The key diatom take away is spring/summer diatoms were found and therefore the bill was only exposed to the river water during that time frame and this implies that the money did not hit the water in November of 1971....but it does not say which spring/summer, was it 1972, 73,74, 75,76,77,78,79? Or every year from 72 through 79 ? Meanwhile, Palmer stated that he thought the money was there for roughly a year. In other words, when did the money arrive and how did it get into the condition that it was in when found? I know everything I am saying has been said and thought of before, just framing this for my own mind. To me, trying to focus on how long it takes and under what conditions a bundle of money like this would solidify and harden could potentially give us some idea of how long it was there which then may be able to rule some scenarios in or out. Another area to explore more, TK indicated that there were some signs of potential bacteriaI colonies at work, could more be done on this? Which bacteria ? Where does this species live ? I thought that TK or other folks were conducting more testing in this area, (putting test money outside in varying conditions), to see if they could simulate or reproduce the conditions of the bundles. If so, maybe there will be some more data to look at soon. Sorry for the long ramble, cheers !

In the news clipping above where it is stating that the Army Corps of Engineers continuously dredge the shore by where the money was found -- do we assume that this continuous dredging was always done with the same suction dredging machine with the 24 inch diameter and said wiper bar as in 1974 ? Reason I am asking, I am still having a hard time grasping the money surviving the dredge processing and winding up how it did on the beach. If some of this pre 1974 dredging referenced was done with a different dredging machine like a clam shell excavator type, I would find it easier to believe.

That's a compelling picture. Question -- how do we know what role the high and low tides could play with these pictures i.e. is the difference in shore line in the pictures related to dredging or where the tide was at the time the picture was taken? I am guessing that high and low tides would be much more subtle and maybe even not noticeable in these types of satellite pictures but I just wanted to ask because if tides can be ruled out as an explanation, then it MUST be evidence of dredging or some other type of shore replenishment activity.

Oh boy, here we go....is this the Chael guy you referenced above?